If only Sac had this REEF?

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Wow, completely different player back then. Going to the hole with authority, blocking shots, grabbing rebounds, showing explosiveness and athleticism. He even had a high arc jumpshot. Reef is still not even old yet, but his game now is a shell of what it was back then.
 
God **** what's with all the hate on Reef all of a sudden??? Were lucky to have him on the team.

I don't think that was hate so much as regret that the SAR in the clip isn't the one we're seeing on the court, that's all...
 
God **** what's with all the hate on Reef all of a sudden??? Were lucky to have him on the team.

No one hates SAR. Even I, probably the biggest Reef hater of all, think he's still well worth his contract at this stage of his career. In fact, statistically based on last year's numbers, he pretty much outperformed his contract.

I just think down the line he'll regress to the point where his contract will be burdensome. But that's for another day.

And yes, everyone wishes they could have the SAR of old. And some of us wish Vancouver could have their basketball team back.
 
Okay, at this point, I'm going to remind everyone that supamari0 is a Rockets fan.

Just like to keep things ... well... honest.

;)
 
When you are the number one option on a team with nothing to loose you paly differently than when you are 4th or 5th option on an established team. I actually expect that the Kings could see more of THAT kind of agressivness with Reef playing as a 6th man and to Reefs credit it could net him a 6th man of the year award.
 
Shareef was also among the few players in the NBA to be able to average 20/10/3
he's got so much finesse in his low post game !
i love to see him go against young gunz and school them ! Ask Chris Bosh lol

last year i remember seeing him posting down low, making a hookshot without facing the basket ! I mean the basket was behind him. his feets were looking at the opposite directions. I'm not sure if he even looked at the rim.
and he made it !

Somebody remember this highlight ?
hope you can understand me :o
 
God **** what's with all the hate on Reef all of a sudden??? Were lucky to have him on the team.

Not terribly actually.

He was overrated back in the day -- quite "pretty" but with little substance or fierceness to his game. But now...now I almost feel sorry for him. He's far from a bad player, and probably still worth his contract. And he's still a better scorer than most frontcourt bigs. But he is simply not exceptional at this point. Averaging Tizzy's old 17 and 7 might be a real chore even if we just cleared everybody out of the way and let Reef lead us right to the lottery and hopefully Oden. He feels and moves 34 at the ripe old age of 29.

There is a difference between "hating on" Reef and wanting to see him replaced with a more competent player.
 
One of the biggest differences I see in the "current" SAR and the "vintage" SAR is the attack speed. He didn't wait for doubles and was very quick to attack.

He also used his spin move baseline far more often. That was signature and near unstoppable. It seems he spins to the lane (into traffic) because it allows for more passing, because if you get cut off going baseline - you're trapped. But, he needs to pull the baseline move out of storage and dust it off.

Those days when it was "catch, spin, hook" ... he was nasty. Now, it's "catch, wait, wait, wait, move, get to 3 feet, kick it out for 3".

PS: I do wish I had those old Grizzly games on tape. Nice piece of history.
 
Maybe I'm in the minority but I didn't see all that much difference between his game then and his game now. Any time you put together a highlight reel the guy is going to look good.
 
Not terribly actually.

He was overrated back in the day -- quite "pretty" but with little substance or fierceness to his game. But now...now I almost feel sorry for him. He's far from a bad player, and probably still worth his contract. And he's still a better scorer than most frontcourt bigs. But he is simply not exceptional at this point. Averaging Tizzy's old 17 and 7 might be a real chore even if we just cleared everybody out of the way and let Reef lead us right to the lottery and hopefully Oden. He feels and moves 34 at the ripe old age of 29.

There is a difference between "hating on" Reef and wanting to see him replaced with a more competent player.
You're the guy who wanted Tyson Chandler and Nene, respectively, in the past two off-seasons, right?
 
Maybe I'm in the minority but I didn't see all that much difference between his game then and his game now. Any time you put together a highlight reel the guy is going to look good.

There is a bit of difference in his on the court demeanor and aggressiveness.

I watched enough Vancouver games (and Atlanta) to see the difference.

His whole game changed around the time Sid Lowe (or was it Lionel Hollins) became coach. He started doing the "wait for a double team" and shooting more jumpers.

He needs to go grassroots again and find that inner reserve. He's got some in his "heart tank" ... he just needs to find it.
 
Wow, completely different player back then. Going to the hole with authority, blocking shots, grabbing rebounds, showing explosiveness and athleticism. He even had a high arc jumpshot. Reef is still not even old yet, but his game now is a shell of what it was back then.


Before you get too impressed, you need to remind yourself it is a highlight film. I am pretty sure that we could make a similar Reef film at the end of this year that would make you say "how did this guy get left off the All-star team?"

He was good back then, but well short of great. Pretty much could say the same of today.
 
He was good back then, but well short of great. Pretty much could say the same of today.

I just wonder why (and how) people can say that.

He was easily one of the top SFs (and then PFs) in the league.

His team winning was the difference of a Ron Artest type player. We all love Bibby, but he couldn't make this team win without Artest. Why? It's 5 guys on the floor.

If you look at Atlanta and Vancouver, they were kids being coached by scrubs.

I don't think there are but a very, very small handful of players that could have made those teams successful without changing things further on the roster.
 
Yeah, I also get really tired of people blaming SAR for playing for bad teams.

Ron Artest and Brad Miller's teams didn't win in Chicago. Bibby's teams didn't win in Vancouver. Kevin Garnett missed the playoffs. Michael Jordan didn't win until he had a good team.

And guess what? Shareef was on a winning team last year and he's on a winning team this year. That's all that matters.
 
So now I am confused....are you saying that he was a great player and is now a good player?

No, I'm saying he was a great player and now he's a misused/underused player.

I don't think I can really judge SAR the way he's being used. His game has never been centered around defensive or rebounding. He can do those things, but that's not what he's great at. He's a scorer. It's hard to get a feel for what he's capable of at 10-12 shots a game (with about half of them coming outside his comfort zone).

By not letting him shoot or score, you're removing the biggest percent contribution he can make to the team.

The way he's being used right now, he's a decent player. We've been using him more and more in the post lately - and I think it won't be long before I can say whether I think he's good now or just another PF.
 
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Maybe I'm in the minority but I didn't see all that much difference between his game then and his game now. Any time you put together a highlight reel the guy is going to look good.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

He's done just about all that here in a Kings uni as well. He may be a touch slower, but still does the same things.
 
Before you get too impressed, you need to remind yourself it is a highlight film. I am pretty sure that we could make a similar Reef film at the end of this year that would make you say "how did this guy get left off the All-star team?"

He was good back then, but well short of great. Pretty much could say the same of today.

I'm perfectly aware that it's a highlight reel. I was commenting on his explosiveness to the basket and the general agressiveness he displayed in his Vancouver days which is evident in these highlights. He carried that team day in and day out, albeit in a losing effort. Put together a highlight reel of Reef these past two years (I realize he doesn't have to carry the offensive load anymore) and compare it with this one; there's a marked difference. Just look at how he runs the floor. Shareef has slowed down a lot, imho.
 
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I'm with Nbrans and Warhawk. Don't see a significant difference between that video and today other than he was their #1 option. He might have lost a tiny bit of speed and a tiny bit of vertical...it's called age. Other than that, he is the same person.

IMO he is our #3 scorer behind KMoney and Bibby. He can create his own game, draws double teams and can finish around the hoop. He is a better scorer than Artest and Miller and is more consistent than both with the exception of the beginning of this year.

I think the biggest reason his rebounding numbers are down the last couple years is because last year we had Bonzi who was a rebounding maniac, and this year Ron is focusing on rebounding. Plus KT is competing for playing time so all of those factor into his #'s going down. He gets a lot of scrutiny around here from fans about rebounding but he can still get a double-double any game IMO and should be treated as such.
 
I have several problems with the theory that Reef only put up great numbers b/c he played for a sorry team. Primarily, that theory only holds water if the player is a volume shooter ala Antoine Walker. Reef however consistently scored 20+ points on 15 shots or less. That is a very impressive stat and does not support the whole idea that Reef is and was a black hole on the offensive end of the court. He is still on of the most efficient scorers in the entire N.B.A. And I have no doubt that if given 15 shots he would hover around 20 points per game. The main problem I have with him at this point in his career is his lack of aggresiveness when trying to rebound. He does it in spurts which frustrates us fans even more because you wonder why he does not play the entire game in the mind-frame. The last couple games he has looked a little better rebounding the ball. Hopefully it carries over to the rest of the year.
 
I have several problems with the theory that Reef only put up great numbers b/c he played for a sorry team. Primarily, that theory only holds water if the player is a volume shooter ala Antoine Walker. Reef however consistently scored 20+ points on 15 shots or less.

While I think this is true to a point, I think the other caveat to this is that it is very difficult for a primary "post player" to put up good numbers on poor teams.

The post is very easy to double and take out of the game, unless a player is skilled.

A guard or perimeter player (Walker played there a lot) is very difficult to lock down as doubles are trickier (if not impossible) and there is no way to zone them out.

This doesn't hold true for post players.

That is a very impressive stat and does not support the whole idea that Reef is and was a black hole on the offensive end of the court. He is still on of the most efficient scorers in the entire N.B.A. And I have no doubt that if given 15 shots he would hover around 20 points per game.

While I agree he's efficient and could easily score 20 on 15 shots (he scored 16-17 on 11 last year) ... SAR was a bit of a black hole on offense when he was younger. He was prone to turnovers and he was going to shoot the dang ball.

Unfortunately, he isn't a black hole now and he's gone to the other extreme and is entirely too passive.
 
I cannot really agree that Reef has ever been a blackhole. I guess one could make an argument that he was blackholeish during the strike season in 1997. During that shortened season Reef took around 17 shots to get 24 points. IMO that is not enough shots to justify being labeled a ball hog. There are other factors to consider about that season: a) Big Country showed up 1,000 lbs overweight because he assumed there would be no season. Without Big Country (who was a very good player when in proper shape) there were simply no scoring options. The problem I had with that season is his shooting % was Ron Artest-esque. He shot 41%. The only caveat to that is that teams often played 5-games per week and players around the league saw their shooting % drop because of sheer exhaustion.
 
not all highlight reels are impressive. i mean, you can still suck. all it is is a sequence of made shots, but its how you make those shots. you could make a highlight video of vlade divac and every highlight would either involve a 5 inch layup off the ground or a pass to a dunking chris webber or doug christie. im sure in the shareef abdur rahim highlight video a few years ago you would see more "authority" and a little more quickness. dont take anything away from him though. he's still the best inside threat this team has. and he deserves a staring pf spot on this team if we can get a center that can defend in the paint and block some shots.
 
I cannot really agree that Reef has ever been a blackhole. I guess one could make an argument that he was blackholeish during the strike season in 1997. During that shortened season Reef took around 17 shots to get 24 points. IMO that is not enough shots to justify being labeled a ball hog. There are other factors to consider about that season: a) Big Country showed up 1,000 lbs overweight because he assumed there would be no season. Without Big Country (who was a very good player when in proper shape) there were simply no scoring options. The problem I had with that season is his shooting % was Ron Artest-esque. He shot 41%. The only caveat to that is that teams often played 5-games per week and players around the league saw their shooting % drop because of sheer exhaustion.

You are getting overly stuck on old stats here.

Reef was a blackhole in that era not because of shooting stats, but because of how long and often he had to hold the ball to get those shooting stats. If you have to hold the ball for 10 secs, throw it out, catch again and then finally make a move to get your points, you can be an efficient shooter while still using up a disproportionate amount of your team's offensive opportunities. This is how even an efficient scorer can end up with inflated numbers on a bad team -- they have nobody else so they allow that scorer to dominate the touches and ball far more than a team with other options would. Throw in the fact he rarely passed even when doubled (mayhap a good idea given those teammates) and you potentially have a guy maxing out his own game, but not necessarily his teams'.

From that era though I would classify Reef's performances as more of those of a false star, than a guy getting stats pummped up. He dominated the ball too much, did not pass much, but still had a lot of talent. The issue with him is that he added exactly 0 wins to his teams' totals. Completely ineffective as a #1 player, whatever the stats. You could call that stat inflation I suppose, but I think it was closer to stat irrelevancy. He had talent worthy of those stats, but never made anybody better or lifted his team with them. As with us, he just scored his hoops and nothing came of it. Might as well lock him in a gym by himself for all the bleedover or tonesetting effects fo Reef's post game -- he plays on an island. Hence by the time we get around to signing him the market is for Reef as a 3rd scorer or 6th man -- points on the bone in a position without responsibility. The rebounding ineptitude has just complicated things. Could ignore it ala Antawn Jamison for a big scorer, but now the ppg get modest and it becomes a major issue.
 
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You are getting overly stuck on old stats here.

Reef was a blackhole in that era not because of shooting stats, but because of how long and often he had to hold the ball to get those shooting stats. If you have to hold the ball for 10 secs, throw it out, catch again and then finally make a move to get your points, you can be an efficient shooter while still using up a disproportionate amount of your team's offensive opportunities. This is how even an efficient scorer can end up with inflated numbers on a bad team -- they have nobody else so they allow that scorer to dominate the touches and ball far more than a team with other options would. Throw in the fact he rarely passed even when doubled (mayhap a good idea given those teammates) and you potentially have a guy maxing out his own game, but not necessarily his teams'.

From that era though I would classify Reef's performances as more of those of a false star, than a guy getting stats pummped up. He dominated the ball too much, did not pass much, but still had a lot of talent. The issue with him is that he added exactly 0 wins to his teams' totals. Completely ineffective as a #1 player, whatever the stats. You could call that stat inflation I suppose, but I think it was closer to stat irrelevancy. He had talent worthy of those stats, but never made anybody better or lifted his team with them. As with us, he just scored his hoops and nothing came of it. Might as well lock him in a gym by himself for all the bleedover or tonesetting effects fo Reef's post game -- he plays on an island. Hence by the time we get around to signing him the market is for Reef as a 3rd scorer or 6th man -- points on the bone in a position without responsibility. The rebounding ineptitude has just complicated things. Could ignore it ala Antawn Jamison for a big scorer, but now the ppg get modest and it becomes a major issue.

Points are points. Reef does have a tendency to be a black hole at times, but if he takes 10 seconds to score it's no different than someone who takes 2 seconds to score. Those points still count, Shareef's don't count less than someone else's. Even better, he's a high-percentage shooter. I can agree that there are guys who shoot a low percentage on bad teams (Baron Davis) and fluff up their ppg to the detriment of the team. But you can't ask much for from someone to shoot high percentage shots whether they're on a good team or a bad team. A high percentage shot is a high percentage shot.

The difference between old Shareef and Kings Shareef is pretty simple. Old Shareef was the focal point of the offense. If Kings Shareef is the focal point, he'll score points. If he's not the focal point he won't score points. He's not someone who scores a lot of points outside of the flow of the offense -- not many big man are. He's not an offensive rebounder, he's not someone who can do much late in the shot clock. Most big men need the ball down low to be effective, and Shareef hasn't been getting the ball down low all that much. If the team needs that skill it's still there, it didn't disappear because he's on a good team.

As for the second part, I mean, look at 1998. The starting lineup was Antonio Daniels, Sam Mack, Shareef, Otis Thorpe and Bryant Reeves, with Lee Mayberry, George Lynch and Tony Massenberg off the bench. I'd say 19 games was a pretty stellar achievement with that group. But according to you Lee Mayberry and Sam Mack won those 19 games for the Grizzlies?
 
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