Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
We have an If-You're-Going-To-Be-An-Idiot-And-Trade-Boogie thread in the personnel forum. Let's keep it there.
Ideally, what do your Kings look like next season?
- Thread starter Showtime
- Start date
We have an If-You're-Going-To-Be-An-Idiot-And-Trade-Boogie thread in the personnel forum. Let's keep it there.
whozit
Starter
I wouldn't absolutely never trade Cousins 'cause you should never say never. But the offer would have to be SO outlandishly out of the park, can't refuse type of deal that if offered you would have to ask why they would offer such a deal. Unless of course he demands a trade and then we're screwed.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
I know the two guys he proposed trading Cuz for are average at best, but I'm pretty sure they don't scowl nearly as much. They might even go to church. How could anyone turn that down?
King Baller
All-Star
So have you been watching the Kings the past 10 years? If so I find it hard to believe you would discount what Malone did so easily.
Remember the movie "War Games"? The only way to "win" this argument is not to have it.
King Baller
All-Star
You must be kidding! Ainge would agree to that trade so fast your head would spin. Moderator! Spill in the Kings Rap forum
Kingster
Hall of Famer
No Cousins, no Gay, and probably a new young intelligent coach (like a Brad Stevens) that can be around for the next 20 years (regression to the mean after an infinite number of coaches over the last decade). Give me some young guys with some winning character who can eventually be a good team, similar to Orlando, Minnesota, or the Jazz. Half a decade of Cousins is enough evidence for me to have a firm opinion that he'll never work as a King - he's mentally incapable of sustaining a winning attitude over long periods of time. Gay just doesn't have the grit that I want in a player. Hopefully, Vlade can get some decent pieces and picks for both so that the rebuilding process doesn't take too long. This team as it is now constituted will never, and I mean never, be able to bring success to this franchise.
biltalent
Starter
The most important aspect for me is consistency. Keep the main core of players together and make only small changes. You can't have success if you constantently turn the roster over like we have for the last years. The roster we have today is the most talented we have had in a long time. We just need to maximze the talent we already have.
Start by extending Vlade and try to resign Rondo. Roll the dice on the Rondo, Cousins, Gay core. Look for roleplayers that complement them. For example, trade Collison and Anderson to the Bulls for Hinrich and Snell.* Hinrich gives us the backup PG we need when we deal Collison. He's 35 but still a very good defender and just knows how to play. Snell would instantently be the best wing defender we have. Finish by signing Kendrick Perkins as a veteran voice and one of the best teammates in the Nba.
This gives us the following roster for 2016/2017:
Rondo (32 minutes) / Hinrich (16 minutes) / Curry
Mclemore (24 minutes) / Belinelli (24 minutes)
Gay (32 minutes) / Snell (16 minutes) / (Butler, probably traded)
Cauley-Stein (24 minutes) / Casspi (24 minutes) / Acy / Moreland
Cousins (32 minutes) / Koufos (16 minutes) / Perkins
This roster is essentially the same we started the 2015/2016 season with, except for better balance at the Point and on the Wing. It has a good balance of defensive and offensive players and a good mix of veterans (Koufos, Belinelli, Hinrich, Perkins) and young players for the future (Cauley-Stein, Snell, Mclemore).
Next, evaluate whether to keep Karl and his staff. Can they adjust in year 2 and maximize the talent we have while also holding the players accountable? Will they improve and be able to implent a sustainable defense and a few reliable inside-out half-court sets?
If you think they will, great, keep them. If not, talk to Thibodeau and see if he wants to coach this talented team.
Finish by making the playoffs.
(*we would have to this trade at this years deadline and then extend Hinrich because he will be a free agent)
Start by extending Vlade and try to resign Rondo. Roll the dice on the Rondo, Cousins, Gay core. Look for roleplayers that complement them. For example, trade Collison and Anderson to the Bulls for Hinrich and Snell.* Hinrich gives us the backup PG we need when we deal Collison. He's 35 but still a very good defender and just knows how to play. Snell would instantently be the best wing defender we have. Finish by signing Kendrick Perkins as a veteran voice and one of the best teammates in the Nba.
This gives us the following roster for 2016/2017:
Rondo (32 minutes) / Hinrich (16 minutes) / Curry
Mclemore (24 minutes) / Belinelli (24 minutes)
Gay (32 minutes) / Snell (16 minutes) / (Butler, probably traded)
Cauley-Stein (24 minutes) / Casspi (24 minutes) / Acy / Moreland
Cousins (32 minutes) / Koufos (16 minutes) / Perkins
This roster is essentially the same we started the 2015/2016 season with, except for better balance at the Point and on the Wing. It has a good balance of defensive and offensive players and a good mix of veterans (Koufos, Belinelli, Hinrich, Perkins) and young players for the future (Cauley-Stein, Snell, Mclemore).
Next, evaluate whether to keep Karl and his staff. Can they adjust in year 2 and maximize the talent we have while also holding the players accountable? Will they improve and be able to implent a sustainable defense and a few reliable inside-out half-court sets?
If you think they will, great, keep them. If not, talk to Thibodeau and see if he wants to coach this talented team.
Finish by making the playoffs.
(*we would have to this trade at this years deadline and then extend Hinrich because he will be a free agent)
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Iced Espresso
Starter
Just a little defense, not going to be greedy.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
That is the fix. It may not be a palatable fix to anyone who has invested heart and soul into a Cousins' team and who saw championships dancing in his head, but it is a fix. The alternative is a long period of opportunities lost. The alternative would be years of putting off the inevitable, wandering aimlessly in limbo-land. I'd rather suck it up and take my medicine now rather than later.
But that's not a fix. It's a gamble on POSSIBLY having a fix. Because unless the team drafts a superstar (or a couple all-stars) it will just be another cycle of losing for the Sacramento Kings.
Nik Stauskas, Ben McLemore, Thomas Robinson and Jimmer Fredette are what the Kings have to show for four out of their last five lottery picks (#8, #7, #5 and #7 respectively) and we only have to look to the Sixers who have been doing the mother of all teardowns and tank jobs in attempting to rebuild and all they currently have to show for it is two NBA starter quality talents that don't mesh in Noel and Okafor and the hope for a player who hasn't played a second for them in two seasons who also doesn't have a game that will mesh well with their other two young bigs.
So the Kings trade away Cousins, Gay and Rondo (who won't net much given his pending free agent status) for draft picks & young players and/or expiring contracts and hope for the best in the lottery? It'd keep Chicago from getting the Kings first rounder I'm guessing (it becomes a 2nd rounder in 2018) but would mean the pick swaps with Philly could actually end up meaning something (Kings can't possibly have the #1 pick for the next two years) and that 2018 or 2019 first rounder will probably end up being a painfully high pick.
Unless this current group suddenly figures things out it doesn't really matter whether the Kings blow it up and rebuild or ride this out and rebuild - it's going to be a long time wandering aimlessly in limbo-land.
You really could have stopped right there. I keep hearing people on this, "Well, it's not like we'd be playing 4-on-5; we're going to get somebody good back for Cousins!" And, I'm like, have you not been following this team for the last thirty years? Why would anybody ever believe that? When's the last time we traded a talented player in their prime, and it worked out for us?
Given that we traded Richmond after his age-32 season you might say he wasn't in his prime. I'd argue that Webber wasn't in his prime when we traded him either. So I guess it depends on what you consider to be a "talented player in his prime" - we may not have traded very many at all.
Does Jason Williams count? I'd say that worked out.
Does Peja count? That ended up being kind of a push.
Does Hedo count? I think that worked out too. Miller's career wasn't as long but he was a huge piece for that team.
Outside of that, who am I missing since the '98 resurgence? I suppose you could count Tyreke and IT, but both of those were sign-and-trades, technically trades but in reality "letting a guy walk in free agency and getting a few cookies out of it".
If nothing else, Cousins would be the most valuable player we've ever traded away - I don't think Richmond even sniffs his value given his age at the time of the trade. So it's kind of uncharted water. Most of the pretty good players we've traded (again, excluding sign-and-trades) we've gotten pretty good returns on unless I'm blocking some memories. We shouldn't consider trading Cousins unless we get a great return. But I don't think it's far-fetched to believe we could get such a return.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
No, the limbo-land will last MUCH longer than not cutting the cord this year. There's not a decision made in basketball that isn't a gamble, one in which there is risk associated with it. There may be more or less risk, but risk nonetheless. There is also risk with doing nothing. Anyway you look at it there is a "gamble." We could look at past drafts with previous GMs, but that doesn't do much for an analysis with a new cast of character making those decisions. One has to hope that future draft decisions will be on par with those of other good small market teams. If not, then we don't have the right guys making those decisions, and that's a story for another day.
Richmond was past his prime, Webber was, too.
And, if it helps clear up your confusion, when I'm talking about "talented" players, the baseline that I'm starting from is going to be, like, Theus. Anybody below that line, like a Jason Williams, isn't good enough to qualify for this conversation, AFAIC. So no, to answer your questions, Williams doesn't count, because he wasn't the caliber of player that I'm talking about. From my point of view, I wouldn't count Jason Williams any more than I would count Walt Williams. Stojakovic doesn't count, because his best years were already behind him, whether you want to argue that there is some immutable line that defines a player's prime or not. And Turkoglu doesn't count for two reasons: 1) He hadn't entered his prime yet; that was more of a case of us trading a prospect for a proven player, and 2) We didn't really do any better without Turkoglu than we did with him; Miller was a good player for us, but it would be a stretch to say that it "worked out," in any results-based argument.
So in this scenario, what are you trading Cousins, Gay, Rondo and perhaps Bellinelli, Collison, McLemore & Koufos for?
twslam07
All-Star
2015-2016 Trade
Pelicans Get: Caron Butler
Kings Get: Toney Douglas
Reason: Butler would like to be moved to a team that allows him to play more. Moving him for a 3 and D PG gives us some added depth in case of injuries this season and in case Rondo is not resigned or if we want to move Collison.
2016 Free Agency
Move: Resign Rondo
Reason: He's been great this year, and it's very hard to attract star talent to Sacramento. You have to try and move forward with him as one of your core pieces at this point in time.
2016 Off-Season Trade
Bucks Get: Darren Collison, Ben McLemore, Marco Belinelli, Mike Dunleavy, Tony Snell, & Kostas Koufos
Bulls Get: Greg Monroe
Kings Get: Khris Middleton & Taj Gibson
Reason: Upgrade our starting SG & PF while moving unnecessary depth at positions of strength (PG & C).
2016 Free Agency
Move: Fire Karl & hire Thibs
Reason: Karl hasn't been playing to this teams strengths. Thibs has Cousins respect and would help mold this team into a defensive minded team.
Move: Sign Jerryd Bayless
Reason: Can play both guard positions and provide scoring/shooting off the bench.
Move: Sign James Jones
Reason: Gives us another shooter on the wing and insurance in case our wings get hit by injuries.
Move: Sign Cole Aldrich
Reason: Gives us another big body in case one of our bigs goes down with an injury.
Move: Release Dukan
Reason: We would have 16 players with Dukan so he's the odd man out.
2016-2017 Roster
PG - Rondo (37 min)/Bayless (11 min)/Curry/Douglas
SG - Middleton (35 min)/Bayless (13 min)/Anderson
SF - Gay (20 min)/Casspi (28 min)/Jones
PF - Gibson (25 min)/Cauley-Stein (9 min)/Gay (14 min)/Acy/Moreland
C - Cousins (37 min)/Cauley-Stein (11 min)/Aldrich
HC - Thibs
Cousins - 37 min
Rondo - 37 min
Middleton - 35 min
Gay - 34 min
Casspi - 28 min
Gibson - 25 min
Bayless - 24 min
Cauley-Stein - 20 min
If only, if only...
Pelicans Get: Caron Butler
Kings Get: Toney Douglas
Reason: Butler would like to be moved to a team that allows him to play more. Moving him for a 3 and D PG gives us some added depth in case of injuries this season and in case Rondo is not resigned or if we want to move Collison.
2016 Free Agency
Move: Resign Rondo
Reason: He's been great this year, and it's very hard to attract star talent to Sacramento. You have to try and move forward with him as one of your core pieces at this point in time.
2016 Off-Season Trade
Bucks Get: Darren Collison, Ben McLemore, Marco Belinelli, Mike Dunleavy, Tony Snell, & Kostas Koufos
Bulls Get: Greg Monroe
Kings Get: Khris Middleton & Taj Gibson
Reason: Upgrade our starting SG & PF while moving unnecessary depth at positions of strength (PG & C).
2016 Free Agency
Move: Fire Karl & hire Thibs
Reason: Karl hasn't been playing to this teams strengths. Thibs has Cousins respect and would help mold this team into a defensive minded team.
Move: Sign Jerryd Bayless
Reason: Can play both guard positions and provide scoring/shooting off the bench.
Move: Sign James Jones
Reason: Gives us another shooter on the wing and insurance in case our wings get hit by injuries.
Move: Sign Cole Aldrich
Reason: Gives us another big body in case one of our bigs goes down with an injury.
Move: Release Dukan
Reason: We would have 16 players with Dukan so he's the odd man out.
2016-2017 Roster
PG - Rondo (37 min)/Bayless (11 min)/Curry/Douglas
SG - Middleton (35 min)/Bayless (13 min)/Anderson
SF - Gay (20 min)/Casspi (28 min)/Jones
PF - Gibson (25 min)/Cauley-Stein (9 min)/Gay (14 min)/Acy/Moreland
C - Cousins (37 min)/Cauley-Stein (11 min)/Aldrich
HC - Thibs
Cousins - 37 min
Rondo - 37 min
Middleton - 35 min
Gay - 34 min
Casspi - 28 min
Gibson - 25 min
Bayless - 24 min
Cauley-Stein - 20 min
If only, if only...
Fair enough. So you said:
But with your definition, I'm not sure who is on the list of talented players in their primes that we have traded. You mention Reggie Theus - he's before my time, but he was 30 and only played three seasons (for three different teams) after the trade, so was he in his prime?
And is there anybody else on the list? You'll have to help me with anybody pre-'98, because that's when I came in.
Not even sure. It was probably Nate Archibald.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
The guys I'd trade would be Cousins and Gay, not necessarily the other guys you mentioned. I'd hope for high picks and younger players with high ceilings in return. So instead of having a roster of entirely of youngins with no veterans, I'd want to retain Collison, Bell, and Koufos to help the young guys along. Those are three character guys that have come from teams that have won. What Vlade could get for Cousins and Gay is pure speculation when it comes to specifics.
