I think Brad Miller will be traded!

[Kings113]

...Why is it that when someone holds a different opinion they are ignorant? Do tell!

Why? Because it's what actually happened with Brad Miller/Diop/Dampier in the playoffs. I've already explained why I'ved referenced to ignorance in my posts where I've used the word. The stuff that actually happened is just not being mentioned becuase the person is ignoring it, forgetting it, or just didn't see it. I watched Dallas from the beginning to end in the playoffs, basically every game. Along with a bunch of regular season games, and just knowing what kind of players Brad/Dampier/Diop were this past season.

I saw what I saw, and described what I did indeed see in my posts. Then saw those things that happened, being overlooked. And on the side, the person(s) using "what ifs" or "ifs" a number of times in their posts regarding the playoffs in relation to Dallas.

 

[AriesMar27]

...Why is it that when someone holds a different opinion they are ignorant? Do tell!

because he can not back up anything he says.... when certain people mention that the kings undersized, soft, unathletic frontcourt held duncan, rasho and nazr to a combined 29 points... yet the tough, intangible, defensive minded mavs centers hold duncan to 32 ppg alone he calls them ignorant......

he saw what he saw, but not what actually happened.... brad doesnt intimidate anyone and everyone drives right by him.... yet the spurs big 3 averaged more points against the mavs than against the powder puff kings..... eventhough they had a free pass to the basket with brad guarding it....

but you know certain people must be ignorant for not seeing the obvious greatness of the mavs centers combining for 7.5pts 10reb and 9fouls.... a game..... how dare they

 

[Kings113]

because he can not back up anything he says.... when certain people mention that the kings undersized, soft, unathletic frontcourt held duncan, rasho and nazr to a combined 29 points... yet the tough, intangible, defensive minded mavs centers hold duncan to 32 ppg alone he calls them ignorant......

he saw what he saw, but not what actually happened.... brad doesnt intimidate anyone and everyone drives right by him.... yet the spurs big 3 averaged more points against the mavs than against the powder puff kings..... eventhough they had a free pass to the basket with brad guarding it....


but you know certain people must be ignorant for not seeing the obvious greatness of the mavs centers combining for 7.5pts 10reb and 9fouls.... a game..... how dare they

Well, I did. You obviously didn't.

I've said what I can say a number of times based on what I saw and what actually happened in the playoffs from Dallas and the Kings. Which was every game for the Kings obviously, and every game except for 1 or 2 from Dallas' playoff run.

I'm not biased, because I'm not a Dallas fan, I just watched the games because the playoffs are fun to watch. But you continue to ignore what actually happened with Dampier/Brad/Diop in the playoffs. And are just using stats, what if and other if statements. When those aren't relevant and really what to judge or prove Dampier/Diop's value, what they do for Dallas and did in the playoffs for them.

*shrugs*

 

[nbrans]

because he can not back up anything he says.... when certain people mention that the kings undersized, soft, unathletic frontcourt held duncan, rasho and nazr to a combined 29 points... yet the tough, intangible, defensive minded mavs centers hold duncan to 32 ppg alone he calls them ignorant......

he saw what he saw, but not what actually happened.... brad doesnt intimidate anyone and everyone drives right by him.... yet the spurs big 3 averaged more points against the mavs than against the powder puff kings..... eventhough they had a free pass to the basket with brad guarding it....

but you know certain people must be ignorant for not seeing the obvious greatness of the mavs centers combining for 7.5pts 10reb and 9fouls.... a game..... how dare they

The Spurs frontcourt and the Kings frontcourt weren't playing in that series. Artest was playing power forward, SAR and Miller were splitting time at center. For the Spurs, Duncan was playing center, Michael Finley was playing power forward and Nazr and Rasho were on the bench. To their credit SAR and KT did a fairly good job on Duncan, but there wasn't a single thing Brad Miller did well that entire series.

If you're arguing that Brad was doing a good job of guarding guys who were on San Antonio's bench I think I can agree with you.

 

[Kings113]

And Rasho/Nazr aren't relevant in what was being talked about.

 

[Kings2805]

Lets see the difference in the 2 series Kings/Spurs vs Spurs/Mavs is very very simple. The Kings concentrated on stopping Duncan, Double teaming him etc, and as a result their guards destroyed us, (Miller letting Parker etc go into the lane at will.) The Mavs wanted to shut down the Guards and Let duncan destroy them, and their strategy paid off. Duncan had great games compared to how he did against the Kings, but the Key to the Spurs are Ginobili and Parker. They prevailed in 7 games, and the reason why is bc they had tough interior D, don't underestimate the value of Diop and Dampier, stats don't the reflect the impact they had for the Mavs this year. Diop contested like 5-7 shots when we played the Mavs this year, something they Mavs of old would of allowed. Brad Miller's stats on the other hand displayed how ineffective and pathetic he was in the Playoffs, this year, last year against the Sonics, and the year B4 against the Timberwolves. People who say we won't win with Miller are more right than people who think we will win with Miller.

 

[Kings113]

^ Yes, and that's part of what I've been saying (since it hasn't just been about the Spurs vs. Kings and Dallas)... aside from not mentioning our strategy on Duncan. How do I know? I remember what I posted.

Can't really blame Brad for the Sonics series though, he was playing hurt. 2004 I thought I remember him being a key guy.

 

[Kings2805]

I laugh at everybody who says Miller stretches the D, and he hits the open jumpshots, and that is crucial to us being effective on the offensive end. Then why is that Miller and only Miller has to be cohersed by the Fans and teammates to shoot the ball, he always passes it up, and if he isn't on he gets passive aggressive, and no longer looks to find his role in the offense. He does not have Killer Instinct just like ex Kings softie peja, and has 3 bad playoffs series in a row, despite the fact he is a I quote "TOP 5 CENTER." So with that history plus how he is the 2nd highest payed player on the team, why does anybody try to defend him. People get attached to Kings players and coaches(Adelman) and try to defend them at all costs, and bypass their deficiencies, even though they are major ones that will prevent us from winning the TITLE. I don't understand it nor will I ever understand why people are ignorant to the flaws of their favorite players/coaches. I want to win PLAIN AND SIMPLE, and if players/coaches are the reason we wont win, then they need to go, no matter how long they have been with the Kings, or how far they have taken us. The goal is to win CHAMPIONSHIPS not 1st or 2nd round exits year in year out. Get rid of Miller who is a figure of the weak minded choke artist Kings of years past.

 

[Kings113]

^ Pretty much spot on, 2805. Brad's definitely not a top 5 center anymore.

 

[Kings2805]

^ Yes, and that's part of what I've been saying (since it hasn't just been about the Spurs vs. Kings and Dallas)... aside from not mentioning our strategy on Duncan. How do I know? I remember what I posted.

Can't really blame Brad for the Sonics series though, he was playing hurt. 2004 I thought I remember him being a key guy.

The reason why I say Brad played poorly against minnesota, is because I believe it was like game 5 or 6 Brad got frustrated started doing his pouty face and got 3 fouls called on him in literally like 1 minute in the 3rd quarter of that game. It totally changed the complexity of that series, and ever since then people have figured out the way to stop Brad is to get him frustrated and stressed, he will lose his cool and his game, and bye bye there goes Brad. If you don't believe me do the research he got 3 fouls in 1 minute, and way huffing and puffing, and pouting like a little child. I am tired of the Kings have a reputation as a cry baby team, that complains alot, or that is not mentally tought. Brad exemplifies this behavior, and he needs to go, just like Adelman who also condoned that whiny cry baby behavior.

 

[Kings113]

Oh, yes, G5 I remember that now.

I think the Kings have changed with Artest now though. Brad's just been the problem sometimes.

 

[sactown100]

Dallas isnt going to trade either Center... so im over talking about any one player on dallas... however yes they showed that with enough talent around big shot blockers with no other game to speak of ... it not only can work but can be great... yes if you moved Brad to the 4 and threw a shot blocking 5 in there it would provide a huge def. boost... and the Kings would still have enough talent around the shot blocker and on the floor to make it work... only talented, deep, balanced teams can make it work...

 

[Kings113]

It doesn't even need to be a shotblocker, just a presence in the paint to alter and change shots, and block shots with some regularity at least.

The Kings don't have one. They need to get two defensive bigs, one to start, one on the bench.

 

[Kings2805]

Oh, yes, G5 I remember that now.

I think the Kings have changed with Artest now though. Brad's just been the problem sometimes.

Yep Kings113 you are correct I have found the Link, and will post it, everybody should read the recap of that game. By the way the series was tied 2-2, and teams that win game 5 win over 85% of the time (spurs won game 5 also after we tied it 2-2. So here is my proof to my claim about Brad Miller, facts don't lie.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240514016

 

[AriesMar27]

but their guards averaged more points against the mavs than the kings.... how are you people missing that.... what killed the kings was the spurs bench.... not millers softness.... barrys 3 wasnt brads fault.... finely lighting the kings up from the outside wasnt brads fault either....

and how are all of you dismissing that jumpball.... that was bigger than anything else in that series....

im not underestimating anything.... last year the kings allowed 4 more ppg than the mavs.... thats 2 shots.... with all of the mavs intangible qualities, compared to the kings their opposing fg% are damn near identical across the board... the only difference being the shotblocking and off rebounding... which saved the mavs 4 points... im too lazy to check the post all-star break numbers..... so lets agree to disagree.... eventhough im right and dampier is garbage, lol.....

but lets see how the numbers look with a full season with artest and maybe bonzi before we continue this argument.... god only knows what kind of intangible skills brad may have next year.... so next offseason we can restart this dull debate over brad miller and dampier/diop...

 

[chelle]

I don't think that many people would argue that Brad had a stellar season or postseason. He did not play to his talents or potential. However, I must be more old school. I still think of baskeball as a TEAM sport- win as a team, lose as a team. Yes, some players add more and others take away more, but in the end the TEAM determines the outcome. That is why I try not to blame individual players for game or series losses.

That is not to say that trading players to upgrade is bad. Quite the opposite. It is imperative to improve. I just prefer that we trade up, not down. If we trade Brad, I would hope it would be for a better center. Any viable suggestions?

 

[Kings113]

Aries:

"not millers softness" - you are completely ignoring how Brad disappeared and was absolute garbage for 5 games offensively, and 6 games for every other facet of the game. The games and stats tell it all, chap.

"and how are all of you dismissing that jumpball.... that was bigger than anything else in that series...." - Dallas won the series, bottom-line. The reason they did is because of Diop defending Duncan in the latter part of game 7.

"eventhough im right and dampier is garbage, lol....." - Dampier is not garbage defensively or in the intangible area. If you don't know that, you are lacking of knowledge on Dampier, what his role is, what he does for Dallas, and are simply biased toward Brad's offensive skills. Offensively? Yes, Dampier is not good or even solid.

"god only knows what kind of intangible skills brad may have next year.... so next offseason we can restart this dull debate over brad miller and dampier/diop..." - What, like how Brad was in 03-04? Is that really worth waiting and seeing for? If that Brad comes back, how effective would it be now, 2 years later after 3 injuries? How consistent would that be? I don't think it's a good idea to depend on something in a player that's been gone for 2 seasons or so.

 

[sactown100]

does anyone remember when after the Kings lost to the Sonics in the Playoffs and Miller had just got handled by the Sonics bigs(Jerome James wow)... then Miller said he was going to "hit the weights" ... wow was it a dark day when Miller showed up looking the same... slow...weak... and really slow and weak... anyway what ever happend to that ? ? if only he would lift like all the other bigs in the league... vlade divac was slow and maybe weak but could he ever take a charge... the best at getting charging calls... plus he had a hook shot and was sneeky in the paint... i liked when brad was the 4 vlade divac was the 5... now just picture a shot blocking big man at the 5... oh well do i really have a point ? i guess i would rather see brad at the 4 than to see him get traded for nothing... hes great at offense and might not be such a weak link if he wasnt the last line of defense... course you would have to trade kenny thomas which would totally work if they trade him for a center... and SAR could play back up PF or an undersized center... and Popadanko (dont care how to spell it) could be the back up center? or trade corliss williamson for another center? who knows Geoff is a genius so we will have to continue to lose our minds on this message board till he does something...

 

[VF21]

I remember all too well Brad's comments about hitting the weights. I think our problem is we assumed he meant bench weights, etc. when he was most likely really talking about something to do with his ATVs.

Maybe he meant lifting cubes instead of 12-packs?

 

[Rome]

The way I see it is that Brad doesn't have much left in him. He was never a good defender to start with but was pretty decent defending in the low post area.

He lost that quickness and any athleticism that he had after his injury. His rebounding is horrible for a guy that averages almost 40 minutes a game.

Yes he draws defending centers out of the paint but that too is also becoming easy for teams to defend. They notice Brad's weakneses and put a smaller defender on him which causes Brad to be ineffective in his 2 only strengths which are shooting and passing. There were numerous games in the regular season that showed this along with the playoffs.

Brad isn't going to get any better, in fact he's actually getting worse in almost every aspect of the game except 3 pt shooting. So its better to trade him now than 2 years from now when he's basically standing in one leg shooting. Doesn't mean we just trade him for another non defensive big man though. What I would like to see us get in return from him is a guy like Nene, Chandler, Diop, or Dampier. Sure these guys can't hit 18 ft shots or pass like Miller but they bring a lot more in different areas that noticibly boosts your team's defense and energy + rebounding.

 

[Kings113]

See, that was one of they main things that was a disappointment. I thought with the injury, the Seattle series, and then the summer - he'd be back to the old Brad, or similar. But what happens? He ultimately gets more soft, and more one-dimensonal. Then has that horrible playoff series.

If were going to keep him, I honestly think he'd be better as back-up at this point in his career. He'd have more energy and less pressure on him (not saying Brad isn't clutch) to do other things than offense.

Get a defensive center, and a hustling big man that is effective without the ball but aren't bad on offense (Wright or Ely or Etan), SAR can start or come off the bench. Unless it's Magloire at the 5 (who is a good two-way center), SAR should come off the bench.

 

[walker60]

Why? Because it's what actually happened with Brad Miller/Diop/Dampier in the playoffs. I've already explained why I'ved referenced to ignorance in my posts where I've used the word. The stuff that actually happened is just not being mentioned becuase the person is ignoring it, forgetting it, or just didn't see it. I watched Dallas from the beginning to end in the playoffs, basically every game. Along with a bunch of regular season games, and just knowing what kind of players Brad/Dampier/Diop were this past season.

I saw what I saw, and described what I did indeed see in my posts. Then saw those things that happened, being overlooked. And on the side, the person(s) using "what ifs" or "ifs" a number of times in their posts regarding the playoffs in relation to Dallas.

You act like you are the only one to watch all the playoff basketball games. I have news for you, other people did as well. People see things differently, its not ignorance, its a difference of opinion.

Well, I did. You obviously didn't.

I've said what I can say a number of times based on what I saw and what actually happened in the playoffs from Dallas and the Kings. Which was every game for the Kings obviously, and every game except for 1 or 2 from Dallas' playoff run.

I'm not biased, because I'm not a Dallas fan, I just watched the games because the playoffs are fun to watch. But you continue to ignore what actually happened with Dampier/Brad/Diop in the playoffs. And are just using stats, what if and other if statements. When those aren't relevant and really what to judge or prove Dampier/Diop's value, what they do for Dallas and did in the playoffs for them.

*shrugs*

How can you say stats aren't relevant?? Argue all you want about what you saw, but it is simply your opinion. Stats are concrete, they don't lie. They are a good way to judge a player's worth.

 

[Kings113]

You act like you are the only one to watch all the playoff basketball games. I have news for you, other people did as well. People see things differently, its not ignorance, its a difference of opinion.




How can you say stats aren't relevant?? Argue all you want about what you saw, but it is simply your opinion. Stats are concrete, they don't lie. They are a good way to judge a player's worth.

But, as I've said before, and said there above.. not for Dampier/Diop, how they're effective and what they do for Dallas.

Same thing for Chandler's playoff series vs. the Heat, and Jason Collins in general. With Chandler, he didn't put up good stats and was facing Shaq, but had a solid series because of the other things he brought all series long. Same for Jason Collins in a number of games vs. the Heat, just that Collins is Mr. Intangible, and never has put up above average stats, like Chandler has.

Outside of rebounding and shotblocking (for Dampier/Diop), what else they do contribute and is valuable to Dallas, does not show up in the stat sheet.

And no, my intent was not like I was the only who watched the playoffs or Dallas there. I described in my posts what actually happened and what Dampier/Diop do and did for Dallas this past season, and in the playoffs.

Offensively? Yes, all those guys are not even solid. That's obvious, and has been said before.

 

[walker60]

But, as I've said before, and said there above.. not for Dampier/Diop, how they're effective and what they do for Dallas.

Same thing for Chandler's playoff series vs. the Heat, and Jason Collins in general. With Chandler, he didn't put up good stats and was facing Shaq, but had a solid series because of the other things he brought all series long. Same for Jason Collins in a number of games vs. the Heat, just that Collins is Mr. Intangible, and never has put up above average stats, like Chandler has.

Outside of rebounding and shotblocking (for Dampier/Diop), what else they do contribute and is valuable to Dallas, does not show up in the stat sheet.

And no, my intent was not like I was the only who watched the playoffs or Dallas there. I described in my posts what actually happened and what Dampier/Diop do and did for Dallas this past season, and in the playoffs.

Offensively? Yes, all those guys are not even solid. That's obvious, and has been said before.

1. You can take your boys (Chandler, Dampier) who don't show up on the stat sheet all you want. I'll take guys who actually produce in comparison to their contracts. I understand that there are defensive stoppers in the league who will never put up good numbers. Those guys are great to have if they hustle, have good basketball IQ, and are good team players (Bowen, Q. Ross, Collins). They are not worth 10 Million a year, however, and Chandler and Dampier can hardly be considered defensive stalwarts.

2. What actually happened is debatable. Your opinions are not absolute truths. They are not fact. They are opinion. Two people can watch the same thing and come to different conclusions about what they just saw.

 

[Kings113]

Dampier is not "my boy", you're assuming that because I'm saying what he does for Dallas. Neither is Diop or Chandler. I'm just pointing out what they've done for their teams in recent games and has been overlooked by some.

 

[VF21]

Stats are concrete, they don't lie.

Stats are figures. They don't lie. They don't do anything. They just sit there on the page waiting to be interpreted. It's the citing of statistics that IS, in fact, subject to perhaps more manipulaton and creative interpretation to fit one's needs than any other part of mathematics.

Just FYI -

Now you two can go back to your discussions.

 

[Kings113]

There are things that players contribute to their teams consistently, which are a key part of their role/game, that do not show up in the stat sheet and help win games. In relation to Dampier/Diop/Collins/Chandler. Which of course, as they did in the season, was displayed in the playoffs regularily.

Then on the other part.. replace any one of those guys with Brad Miller, that team doesn't do as well or get as far.

 

[LA King Fan II]

As we debate what kind of player Brad Miller was or could be there is one undeniable truth: Vlade Divac made him look like a much better than he is now. Good players can do that. IMO Vlade did the same thing for Stojakovic and at times for Webber too (though Chris was an absolute beast with or without Vlade the first few seasons).

Brad is what he is. I can live with him too, as long as we have a better all around big man to play him. Otherwise he will not be the player he was for that very cool half season 3 years ago.

 

[Kings113]

As we debate what kind of player Brad Miller was or could be there is one undeniable truth: Vlade Divac made him look like a much better than he is now. Good players can do that. IMO Vlade did the same thing for Stojakovic and at times for Webber too (though Chris was an absolute beast with or without Vlade the first few seasons).

Brad is what he is. I can live with him too, as long as we have a better all around big man to play him. Otherwise he will not be the player he was for that very cool half season 3 years ago.

Tend to agree there.

 

[nbrans]

As we debate what kind of player Brad Miller was or could be there is one undeniable truth: Vlade Divac made him look like a much better than he is now. Good players can do that. IMO Vlade did the same thing for Stojakovic and at times for Webber too (though Chris was an absolute beast with or without Vlade the first few seasons).

Brad is what he is. I can live with him too, as long as we have a better all around big man to play him. Otherwise he will not be the player he was for that very cool half season 3 years ago.

Yes, but... Brad was also very, very good in his post-Divac season. He had an off-year last year. It remains to be seen whether he'll regain his form or whether the Brad we saw last season is the new Brad.