Huge Gamble

[HndsmCelt]

If if and IF, and a bunch of IFs which have NOT happened yet. Last I checked Webb was still playing, had played in 80%+ of the games this season in fact.

There comes the point when the question is, do you have the sack to take a risk? Or do you fold?

And then there is the followup question with us -- did we just fold? Did Petrie blink and his cautiousness cross the line into timidity? Or is in fact our current path the larger risk?

LOL that my dear friend is the differance between playing with some one elses money and playing with your own, also the difference between playing to win and palying not too loose (both poker lessons) GP is makingsafer bets now.

 

[ParniValjak]

I think most people understand exactly why the trade was made. What's hard to swallow is the fact that we diminish whatever chance we had to win it this year even further. The future part is not hard to grasp, and let's face it, Petrie's magic will have to work overtime to turn this around in one off-season. It's the gambling on the current that upsets people like me.

People like me, who've supported the team and coaching staff staying intact, have been accused of settling for mediocrity, and it’s a shame, but after this trade, I feel we are mediocre. We still have All-Star caliber players, but as a team, we've lost a lot.

Deep down do you henstly think that we could win it all this year?????? Emotionally you would say yes but realistically we were not even a serious chance. Even if we kept the same team we started the season off with, we would still be there to make up the numbers. With the current team we are there to make up the numbers so really the bottom line is we are about as much chance as we were.

Now this might upset a few people and I can understant that BUT its the reality. We had our chances with the team we had but for a number of reasons it wasn't meant to be. What we need to do is move on and start building another team that will be good enough to win it all. It might take a year or 2 or maybe even 3 but I have absolute faith in Petire that he will make the Kings a genuine contender once again.

 

[ParniValjak]

The gamble doesnt lie in the trade of Webber, the gamble lies in what we got for him. High salaried tweeners who are nothing more then good bench players.

But in reality do you honestly think we could get more????? Lets be honest, C-Webb is damaged goods and a huge risk. No one is going to give you a a hell of a lot in return for a player in such situation. Do you honestly think that Petrie wouldn't have picked to deal with the team that would offer us the best possible deal??????

 

[slugking50]

Carolija... Great posts! I agree 100%

GP is not an idiot he knew he had to get rid of that contract. Any minute Webb could self destruct. If that happen we would be majorly screwed. It has been said a million times. The Kings had to have some flexibility. I believe that we had no chance beating SA with a serious declining Webb and DC with other team deficiencies. I think a Kings fan being totally objective could very easily come to that conclusion. But with that said its not easy taking off those glasses. Its painful on the old ticker. With my Rose Colored Glasses I hated both trades but as Ive thought about it more I knew it was the right decision. DC still can pass but he clearly was loosing it on the defensive end of the floor. I wouldn't say Cat was doing a better job but it was pretty close(After all you cant replace DCs long arms and his vast experience). Petrie was pretty much hurting when he pulled these 2 trades. But he knew he had no choice. Im sure Petrie thought long and hard about both moves.


And that is why Petrie is a frickin Genius!

In Petrie I trust!

 

[Heuge]

But in reality do you honestly think we could get more????? Lets be honest, C-Webb is damaged goods and a huge risk. No one is going to give you a a hell of a lot in return for a player in such situation. Do you honestly think that Petrie wouldn't have picked to deal with the team that would offer us the best possible deal??????

Then if you can't get more don't make the trade. It isn't worthy of a gamble.

 

[Packt]

Deep down do you henstly think that we could win it all this year?????? Emotionally you would say yes but realistically we were not even a serious chance. Even if we kept the same team we started the season off with, we would still be there to make up the numbers. With the current team we are there to make up the numbers so really the bottom line is we are about as much chance as we were.

Now this might upset a few people and I can understant that BUT its the reality. We had our chances with the team we had but for a number of reasons it wasn't meant to be. What we need to do is move on and start building another team that will be good enough to win it all. It might take a year or 2 or maybe even 3 but I have absolute faith in Petire that he will make the Kings a genuine contender once again.

My feelings are absolutely grounded in reality. We were a longshot, but a longshot none the less. Now, we're looking at next year, or the year after that.

 

[VF21]

My feelings are absolutely grounded in reality. We were a longshot, but a longshot none the less. Now, we're looking at next year, or the year after that.

word.

 

[twodogmac]

LOL that my dear friend is the differance between playing with some one elses money and playing with your own, also the difference between playing to win and palying not too loose (both poker lessons) GP is makingsafer bets now.

Yes, playing not to lose. How about this lineup instead of what we have now: C-Webb, Bibby, Darius, Brad, Cuttino? With some good bench players, Bobby in the playoffs? Anybody think this lineup wouldn't go deep into the playoffs?

Now we have "played not to lose", basically gutted our team, with very little chance of going anywhere this year. No wonder the guys are playing like they're loaded with lead. Maybe they all need some Prozac to finish out the season.

 

[vladetomiller]

There must have been something more than what we know that caused this trade. Maybe Aileen V was right all along talking about this trade. i see that as a management strategy to push that in the local media to avoid backlash. Also the arena deal could have something to do with this, the maloofs maybe are trying to show that they are businessmen and that they are not going to spend money on the team if they cant make money of the team. Sure they have been making some profits but to comapre that with what they make at the palms is the right way to look at it. If they can make more money building another casino rather than have an nba team then i guess they would move that way

 

[KP]

My feelings are absolutely grounded in reality. We were a longshot, but a longshot none the less. Now, we're looking at next year, or the year after that.

Exactly.^

 

[HndsmCelt]

Yes, playing not to lose. How about this lineup instead of what we have now: C-Webb, Bibby, Darius, Brad, Cuttino? With some good bench players, Bobby in the playoffs? Anybody think this lineup wouldn't go deep into the playoffs?

Now we have "played not to lose", basically gutted our team, with very little chance of going anywhere this year. No wonder the guys are playing like they're loaded with lead. Maybe they all need some Prozac to finish out the season.

Well that makes great sense in the short run. Now don't get me wrong I am not necessarly defending the trade(s) just explaining them. Yes the line up with Webber and probalby with DC to was stronger and had a much better chance albeit still slim of going deep in paly offs and if allthesarts alinged right of wining the championship.... these were long odds and meant hanging on to huge contracts that many people considered untradeable. The bigest risk was injury that would mean complletly eating the contract but the real risk was older palyers giving diminished returns for their pay, still not gettting the ring and absorbing huge contracts and roster spots that prevent adequate replacement. Moving Webber and DC as well was the safe play, like folding when your hole cards still don't beat the other card players up cards. It will allow the team to explore lots of options after treating the season and shrot post season as try outs. Again I am not advocating spesifc choices yet but for example the team could let Cat walk freeing up several million to sign FA's or sign and trade. The new guys and the bench all create opertunities for bringing in key players to round out the squad for the next foew years. With a yong core of Miller, Bibby and Pedaj to build arround the the Kings could retool in one year. From a bottom line perspective the Older roster from the start of the year had a small chance dim future and a huge risk of dragging on like the Jazz did the last 2-3 seasons with Stockton and Malone, which created the currnt problems in Salt Lake.

 

[swisshh]

Petrie/Maloofs went from trying to win to trying not to lose(money) in the offseason of the Brad Miller trade. Of course the Kings needed a replacement for Vlade, but the amount of players and type of players we lost did more harm than good. It's just becoming obvious to more people this year.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Petrie/Maloofs went from trying to win to trying not to lose(money) in the offseason of the Brad Miller trade. Of course the Kings needed a replacement for Vlade, but the amount of players and type of players we lost did more harm than good. It's just becoming obvious to more people this year.

LOL with out Brad in the line up the team would not have even mae the paly offs last year an the same yahoos who are screaming for Petires head now would have screamed for it then. Remember who started at PF the first 2/3's of last year and put up career numbers? The Kings had some huge contracts beceause of it, but it was the righ move for last season, no doubt about it.

 

[twodogmac]

Yes the line up with Webber and probalby with DC to was stronger and had a much better chance albeit still slim of going deep in paly offs and if allthesarts alinged right of wining the championship.... these were long odds and meant hanging on to huge contracts that many people considered untradeable. ... From a bottom line perspective the Older roster from the start of the year had a small chance dim future and a huge risk of dragging on like the Jazz did the last 2-3 seasons with Stockton and Malone, which created the currnt problems in Salt Lake.

Okay, so we're back to the Peja versus Webb debate, because what's wrong with hanging onto an "older" great player despite the huge contract? (Bet the Lakers would like to have Shaq back.) When CW was signed to the huge contract, he was still gonna be 32 years on on March 1, 2005 - so was it then about the liability due to the knee injury?

I have been having this creeping paranoia that they did really intend to trade C-Webb after the knee injury, thus orchestrated his great numbers this year to be able to dump him. If that's true, no wonder all the players need Prozac now. They were all just being used to further the (greedy) motives of the management/owners.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Okay, so we're back to the Peja versus Webb debate, because what's wrong with hanging onto an "older" great player despite the huge contract? (Bet the Lakers would like to have Shaq back.) When CW was signed to the huge contract, he was still gonna be 32 years on on March 1, 2005 - so was it then about the liability due to the knee injury?

I have been having this creeping paranoia that they did really intend to trade C-Webb after the knee injury, thus orchestrated his great numbers this year to be able to dump him. If that's true, no wonder all the players need Prozac now. They were all just being used to further the (greedy) motives of the management/owners.

Wow you developed a conspiracy therory more out there than some of mine! Im really not sure this ever was or boild down to a Webb vrs Pedja issue. Heck If Pedja does not buck up quick I would not be supprised or upset to see HIM traded as well. Webber is a often injured max contract player in his 30's remove the names and the semtementality atched to them and dumping him while the dumping is good DOES make sense... the return sucked but they are moveable contracts. Pedja is a young under paid skilled player that for whatever reason has underperformed but still looks to have a healthy future and many years left. IF he can perform his contract is a no brainer to keep.

 

[twodogmac]

Okay, so what about Peja supposedly moping or dogging it and wanting to be traded because he was miffed with what Webb said last summer -blah blah blah- and all the blabety-blab about Webb not getting the ball to Peja, taking too many shots -more blabety-blab- ... In other words, was it then just about dumping Webb? And what about DC? You don't think the highers-up weren't worrying about LOSING Peja if they kept Webb? I mean, really, the trades are Huge Gambles, and the gamble is on Losing Less rather than WINNING??? A real bummer for the fans, that is the bottom line on why this is so painful.

Ouch.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Okay, so what about Peja supposedly moping or dogging it and wanting to be traded because he was miffed with what Webb said last summer -blah blah blah- and all the blabety-blab about Webb not getting the ball to Peja, taking too many shots -more blabety-blab- ... In other words, was it then just about dumping Webb? And what about DC? You don't think the highers-up weren't worrying about LOSING Peja if they kept Webb? I mean, really, the trades are Huge Gambles, and the gamble is on Losing Less rather than WINNING??? A real bummer for the fans, that is the bottom line on why this is so painful.

Ouch.

I'm not sure how much of the Pedja Webb riff was real and what was blown out of proportion. They seemed ok on court and it apeared to be history, but hey only the real insiders know and they are not talking. Belive I compleelty sympathize with the sentement of loosing players who are clearly giving their all and keeping guys who remain question marks. But in all honestly from a dispasionante view if you look BEYOND this season the moves are the safe ones much lower risk than holding on to Webber's contract would be. Philly took a chance on Webb BECEAUSE they traded so little for him and they were NOT going to make the Play offs with out him. Nextseason and the one after they may well be crippled with his and AI's contracts espcialy if Webber is just unable to perform. Kings are in a different situation. IF they want to be a top competor next season and the one after they ned to bring in at least one more strong starter and needed depth to the bench. Now the bench has a lot of depth to it, and should be fine even afte moving a few players in the off season for a strong starter.

 

[twodogmac]

This makes sense. If only it made Sense!

Thanks.

 

[swisshh]

LOL with out Brad in the line up the team would not have even mae the paly offs last year an the same yahoos who are screaming for Petires head now would have screamed for it then. Remember who started at PF the first 2/3's of last year and put up career numbers? The Kings had some huge contracts beceause of it, but it was the righ move for last season, no doubt about it.

The team the Kings had before the Miller trade was better than the team they had after it. The team decided it didn't want to pay to keep that team. Think about it, that off-season was a turning point, as well as the playoffs leading up to it.

 

[HndsmCelt]

The team the Kings had before the Miller trade was better than the team they had after it. The team decided it didn't want to pay to keep that team. Think about it, that off-season was a turning point, as well as the playoffs leading up to it.

Pollard and Hedo were/are both good becnh palyers who can start on some teams in some situations but neither of them are or ever will be the kind of guy you depend on night after night to start and perform. The Kings needed a new Center the best available one was Brad, and he has EXCEEDED most peoples expectations since getting here. I would argue that in Kenny Thomass and Brian SKinner we now have better palyers thanHedo and Pollard, and it shwos how much easier it is to replace middling guys than true starters, espcially starting Centers. Vlade's breakdown this season underscores the the wisdom of aquiring Brad. Even with Valde last year I just don't see Pollard and Hedo helping the team wefore Webber returned the way Bad did. But we are all entitled to our opinions. Reality is that the Kings now have Bibby, Brad and Pedja to build arround and in my book that is solid base for a team with MANY great seasons ahead.

 

[Bricklayer]

The team the Kings had before the Miller trade was better than the team they had after it. The team decided it didn't want to pay to keep that team. Think about it, that off-season was a turning point, as well as the playoffs leading up to it.

It was better, but not BECAUSE the Brad trade was bad. The Brad trade was mandatory -- Vlade was slipping fast, and we needed a replacement or the window would slam shut.

But we did retrench financially that summer -- franchise turning point = Game 2 vs. the Dallas Mavericks in May 2003. Webb crumples to the ground -- remmeber at the time some ******* Peja troll on here laughing it up and saying "see watch this". Remember before banning him telling him to shut the hell up because that was our championship being carried to the locker room. What I did not realize was that it was ALL our championship chances being carried off. When the ultra-deep roster collapsed vs. the Mavs the rest of the series, think that was it for the Maloofs. From that point on, they took the attitude that depth did not matter if they lost their stars (correct actually) and they drew back financially after losing big $$$ in their all out push to convert on the 2002 close call. It was the back breaking moment for the Maloofs and the franchise when we went from being one of the most aggressive franchises in the league frantically pursuing a title to an old established top team just trying to hold on.

 

[swisshh]

It was better, but not BECAUSE the Brad trade was bad.

I don't disagree with that.

I'm not saying it was all because of the Miller trade. That year we lost Keon Clark, Jim Jackson, Hedo and Pollard. As good as Miller has been he doesn't offset all of that. It was one contract instead of having to payup eventually to keep all those guys. The fact they didn't try one more time with that team dissapointed me. As well the way Adleman handled the Webber injury in the playoffs. When I saw him stop playing his bench, I knew it was a bad omen for the team next year. Sure enough, those players were gone by next year.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

It was better, but not BECAUSE the Brad trade was bad. The Brad trade was mandatory -- Vlade was slipping fast, and we needed a replacement or the window would slam shut.

But we did retrench financially that summer -- franchise turning point = Game 2 vs. the Dallas Mavericks in May 2003. Webb crumples to the ground -- remmeber at the time some ******* Peja troll on here laughing it up and saying "see watch this". Remember before banning him telling him to shut the hell up because that was our championship being carried to the locker room. What I did not realize was that it was ALL our championship chances being carried off. When the ultra-deep roster collapsed vs. the Mavs the rest of the series, think that was it for the Maloofs. From that point on, they took the attitude that depth did not matter if they lost their stars (correct actually) and they drew back financially after losing big $$$ in their all out push to convert on the 2002 close call. It was the back breaking moment for the Maloofs and the franchise when we went from being one of the most aggressive franchises in the league frantically pursuing a title to an old established top team just trying to hold on.

My fellow Kings fans, that there is the sad and unfortunate truth.

::sigh::

 

[VF21]

It was better, but not BECAUSE the Brad trade was bad. The Brad trade was mandatory -- Vlade was slipping fast, and we needed a replacement or the window would slam shut.

But we did retrench financially that summer -- franchise turning point = Game 2 vs. the Dallas Mavericks in May 2003. Webb crumples to the ground -- remmeber at the time some ******* Peja troll on here laughing it up and saying "see watch this". Remember before banning him telling him to shut the hell up because that was our championship being carried to the locker room. What I did not realize was that it was ALL our championship chances being carried off. When the ultra-deep roster collapsed vs. the Mavs the rest of the series, think that was it for the Maloofs. From that point on, they took the attitude that depth did not matter if they lost their stars (correct actually) and they drew back financially after losing big $$$ in their all out push to convert on the 2002 close call. It was the back breaking moment for the Maloofs and the franchise when we went from being one of the most aggressive franchises in the league frantically pursuing a title to an old established top team just trying to hold on.

And that, dear Bricklayer, puts into words what I know a lot of us have been feeling but unable to articulate.

My sentiments echo Reina's:

...sigh...

 

[SCKingsfan]

The hardest thing for me to really get is: why trade Webber mid-season and get nothing for him? Is this really based on the idea that he "could" sustain an equally bad (re-)injury before the end of the year? That's enough of a reason to throw the season away? Wouldn't we get more for C-Webb in the summer, after he most likely would have kept a double-double pace. Everyone keeps talking about how he's a liability down the road - that argument makes sense to me, sure, but I honestly don't understand: why shift mid-season unless there was tangible reason why it would be better off to finish the season with the collection of players we now (post-trade) have? A few have said it's a gamble either way - but did it really look like Webber's knee was going to shatter or become markedly worse as the year went on? The guys not going to age any worse in three months, and it would seem better to go deep into the playoffs that be lucky to survive the first round.

Yea, i'm still upset, can't get over it like many of you have been able to. But I just want it to make sense.

 

[HndsmCelt]

The hardest thing for me to really get is: why trade Webber mid-season and get nothing for him? Is this really based on the idea that he "could" sustain an equally bad (re-)injury before the end of the year? That's enough of a reason to throw the season away? Wouldn't we get more for C-Webb in the summer, after he most likely would have kept a double-double pace. Everyone keeps talking about how he's a liability down the road - that argument makes sense to me, sure, but I honestly don't understand: why shift mid-season unless there was tangible reason why it would be better off to finish the season with the collection of players we now (post-trade) have? A few have said it's a gamble either way - but did it really look like Webber's knee was going to shatter or become markedly worse as the year went on? The guys not going to age any worse in three months, and it would seem better to go deep into the playoffs that be lucky to survive the first round.

Yea, i'm still upset, can't get over it like many of you have been able to. But I just want it to make sense.

Maybe the Kings could ahve gotten better offers for Webb in the off season, maybe not. IF he contenues to pay well all season AND he has no injusries, THEN maybe you get a better offer, maybe you dont, BUT a contract that big is limits who CAN trade and WHO they can trade for Webb. By having the smaller contracts in hand at the start of the trade/draft Petrie has many more options, and my frinds options are everything.

 

[ParniValjak]

The hardest thing for me to really get is: why trade Webber mid-season and get nothing for him? Is this really based on the idea that he "could" sustain an equally bad (re-)injury before the end of the year? That's enough of a reason to throw the season away? Wouldn't we get more for C-Webb in the summer, after he most likely would have kept a double-double pace. Everyone keeps talking about how he's a liability down the road - that argument makes sense to me, sure, but I honestly don't understand: why shift mid-season unless there was tangible reason why it would be better off to finish the season with the collection of players we now (post-trade) have? A few have said it's a gamble either way - but did it really look like Webber's knee was going to shatter or become markedly worse as the year went on? The guys not going to age any worse in three months, and it would seem better to go deep into the playoffs that be lucky to survive the first round.

Yea, i'm still upset, can't get over it like many of you have been able to. But I just want it to make sense.

As I said in one of my other posts its a minimzation of risk. C-Webb's knee is a real concern and I don't think the Kings were prepared to take a risk for the rest of the year. They obviously think that C-Webb's knee is a ticking time bomb and had he gone down before the end of the season we would be left with a HUGE contract for the next 3 years and a listed player who can't take the court. No one would take him up then.

I know its a "what if", BUT when you are trying to minimize the risks, and a big risk at that, you just don't take your chances. Despite popular beleif, it was purely a business strategy that would obviously rub people the wrong way BUT the one that will make this organisation better off in the long run. I don't think there is any reasonable Kings fan that would agree with this trade if Webber was not as much a risk as he is. If he was 100% fit and healthy I am certain that GP wouldn't do this deal. But taking into account the circumstances its the best we would get for him and thats being realistic.

I keep asking a simple question but I never get the answer, As a kings fan would you give up more than Philly did if the roles were reversed?????? My answer would be no. Woudl you want us to pick up a player with a huge contract and a serious knee issues and pay a lot in terms of trade currency?????? I doubt anyone would say yes to this.

 

[G_M]

I keep asking a simple question but I never get the answer, As a kings fan would you give up more than Philly did if the roles were reversed?????? My answer would be no. Woudl you want us to pick up a player with a huge contract and a serious knee issues and pay a lot in terms of trade currency?????? I doubt anyone would say yes to this.

Not only that but Webber had a NO TRADE clause in his contract which he waived. However, I'm sure he's not waiving it to play in Toronto or numerous other cities that may have had a STUD to offer in return.

So, the possible trade scenarios are not as great as some on this board would have you think. That is the genius of it!

 

[SCKingsfan]

As I said in one of my other posts its a minimzation of risk. C-Webb's knee is a real concern and I don't think the Kings were prepared to take a risk for the rest of the year. They obviously think that C-Webb's knee is a ticking time bomb and had he gone down before the end of the season we would be left with a HUGE contract for the next 3 years and a listed player who can't take the court. No one would take him up then.

I know its a "what if", BUT when you are trying to minimize the risks, and a big risk at that, you just don't take your chances. Despite popular beleif, it was purely a business strategy that would obviously rub people the wrong way BUT the one that will make this organisation better off in the long run. I don't think there is any reasonable Kings fan that would agree with this trade if Webber was not as much a risk as he is. If he was 100% fit and healthy I am certain that GP wouldn't do this deal. But taking into account the circumstances its the best we would get for him and thats being realistic.

I keep asking a simple question but I never get the answer, As a kings fan would you give up more than Philly did if the roles were reversed?????? My answer would be no. Woudl you want us to pick up a player with a huge contract and a serious knee issues and pay a lot in terms of trade currency?????? I doubt anyone would say yes to this.

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. And no I would never expect Philly to give up any more than they did - I just have a hard time seeing how the trade wouldn't have better (or at least the potential of being better) for the Kings if it had happened in the offseason. I understand the arguments on the other side, and I"ve trusted Petrie until now, but I think it will never sit right with me, and it's not just because I'm a webber lover (and I am). Good business? - I don't know much about that, but I think this is the most sketchy move he's pulled yet

 

[HndsmCelt]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. And no I would never expect Philly to give up any more than they did - I just have a hard time seeing how the trade wouldn't have better (or at least the potential of being better) for the Kings if it had happened in the offseason. I understand the arguments on the other side, and I"ve trusted Petrie until now, but I think it will never sit right with me, and it's not just because I'm a webber lover (and I am). Good business? - I don't know much about that, but I think this is the most sketchy move he's pulled yet

yep it is the sketchist move GP has made, and it may well back fire. But to move a Huge Player with a Huge contract when he is clearly damamged good this is just the kind of two or three step set of moves it would/will take to make it happen. Minny and SA were not going to trade KG or TD for him, even adeal for a JO or Sheed would be unlikely. So now the first step of the deal is down we have to wait and see what the next move is. But hey this is great momnt for those that demad immidiate gratification to demad GP and or RA be fired.