How good do you think the currently constructed team can be?

[Bricklayer]

I don't even comment anymore. There is no middle ground for some of these people. If they don't like a player, then he's just terrible at everything. There is a difference between not being a shotblocker, and not defending. Landry defends, and to say otherwise means you either have an agenda, or your just plain ignorant of the facts. Go to Synergy.com and look up his stats. No, he's not Larry Sanders, but he's a far cry from not defending. His rebounding numbers are decent, but not great. He averaged 9.4 rebounds per 36 minutes last season for the Warriors, while our own Jason Thompson, who many consider a good rebounder, averaged 8.7 rebounds per 36 last season.

I'm more than willing to have a logical intelligent conversation with anyone, but I'm sick and tired of the extremes. Unless of course someone wants to comment on James Johnson.

He does not defend. The Warriors defended. That's a significant difference. The Warriors actually got significantly worse defensively with him on the floor, giving up 3.2 more points per 100 possessions (82games.com stat). It was 2.3 more points the year before in New Orleans. +3.4 more points the year before that in New Orleans (the year we traded him there), while it was +3.2 during his half season in Sacto that year. He broke even in the year we initially traded for him, which was his high water mark. The year before we got him it was back to +3.2 again. And +2.9 more as a rookie. He's nothing if not consistent no matter the teammates.

And the rebounding was an utter aberration. People talk about his year with us an aberration, then a guy has one burp of decent rebounding, in a contract year no less, and they're all in. Yeah right. It was the first time in 4 years he didn't finish in the bottom 25% of all big men rebounders. I will of course welcome a magical change there. But come on.

This is 5 teams in 5 years for Carl Landry. There is a good reason why he is bouncing around Drew Goodenlike. Its not because he is a post playing, rebounding, defending big.

 

[Bricklayer]

The only reasonable defense I have heard for the Landry signing is that he is Malone's guy and he can pick up some of the low post scoring load when Cousins sits. Which is at least somewhat reasonable. I don't agree, but I at least respect the logic. From a pure basketball perspective, it is very hard to justify the signing at the price at we paid.

I hate to QFT, but there does need to be some attempt to draw this back out of fantasyland to a point of possible agreement, and that's the best shot right there. Trying to pump Carl bleeping Landry up into some do it all superhero is not.

 

[The_Jamal]

Not sure you can bring up Dally wearing out welcomes when Landry has bounced around as much in half the time during his career.

And you are right about what he brings to the table but you left out the fact that he doesn't pass often or well, doesn't defend well and doesn't rebound well, which is why most of us were disappointed in the move, especially when those are things we really need and supposedly were focusing on this offseason.

New Orleans were not making any long-term commitments to veterans. Rockets traded him for Kevin Martin to us (Hardly a "dump him for whatever" deal". Warriors made the call to move on from Jack and Landry and invest their money elsewhere. And, Landry comes with glowing reviews from everywhere he's been from coaches, teammates, etc.

Dally just flat out fallen out of favor because he's not a good teammate. When you get beat out for playing time by a 1000 year old Marcus Camby, you're not doing something right.

 

[The_Jamal]

Landry had an AST% of 5.6% last year. In other words he passed to a guy that scored 1 out of 20 times he touched the ball, a number way below league average. Lower than Travis Outlaw. He may score within the offense, but he is generally the last stop within the offense. I am not sure why people keep arguing about this. We know what Landry is. This is not some guy no one has seen play before with the same players he is going to play with now. But go ahead and try to keep bringing up out of context stats and bending over backwards to try and defend the signing.

The only reasonable defense I have heard for the Landry signing is that he is Malone's guy and he can pick up some of the low post scoring load when Cousins sits. Which is at least somewhat reasonable. I don't agree, but I at least respect the logic. From a pure basketball perspective, it is very hard to justify the signing at the price at we paid.

Jason Thompson had a 6% AST last season. So. Yea. Out of context stats ftw.

And how Are my stats out of context? Padrino falsely accused Landry of being a blackhole who can't play within an offense. When he got 68% of his offense from other situations other than Post-ups and ISO plays.


I have said absolutely zero about his defense, rebounding, etc. Because I already know it's average-below average. But that doesn't make the stuff he does well go away

 

[Bricklayer]

New Orleans were not making any long-term commitments to veterans. Rockets traded him for Kevin Martin to us (Hardly a "dump him for whatever" deal". Warriors made the call to move on from Jack and Landry and invest their money elsewhere. And, Landry comes with glowing reviews from everywhere he's been from coaches, teammates, etc.

Dally just flat out fallen out of favor because he's not a good teammate. When you get beat out for playing time by a 1000 year old Marcus Camby, you're not doing something right.

That 1000 yr old Marcus Camby came in and exploded for 7.1pts 9.3rebs and 1.5blks in 24.1min/per game during his Houston stint. He led the entire league in rebounding % that year (back to back years actually). I don't know there are 10 centers in the league who could have avoided being beaten out by that kind of production. That's a 10.6pts 13.8reb 2.3blk pace in your beloved per36min. Asik last year went 12.2pts 14.0reb 1.3blk. Dalembert BTW went 12.2pts 11.8reb 2.8blk. That's a franchise that always makes sure it has those guys.

 

[Hallama]

I watched the Warriors/Landry a ton last season. He's improved a lot since he's been here and he's definitely a nice scorer off the bench. (I don't really agree with the signing overall because I'm not sure how he helps in the short run.) The Warriors really wanted him back but it became a numbers game for them being so close to the lux tax, and then when they made their big cap clearing trade Iggy became the main focus. They will miss him.

Point being his "bouncing" around the league comments aren't totally fair, as the Warriors would've gladly had him back for 3 or 4 more seasons if the $ituation was a little different.

 

[sdballer]

I watched the Warriors/Landry a ton last season. He's improved a lot since he's been here and he's definitely a nice scorer off the bench. (I don't really agree with the signing overall because I'm not sure how he helps in the short run.) The Warriors really wanted him back but it became a numbers game for them being so close to the lux tax, and then when they made their big cap clearing trade Iggy became the main focus. They will miss him.

Point being his "bouncing" around the league comments aren't totally fair, as the Warriors would've gladly had him back for 3 or 4 more seasons if the $ituation was a little different.

It's not that he doesn't have a place in the league. It's just that he's way less useful on a team with massive needs he doesn't meet and whose only star talent is a low post player that struggles to defend.

 

[Bricklayer]

I watched the Warriors/Landry a ton last season. He's improved a lot since he's been here and he's definitely a nice scorer off the bench. (I don't really agree with the signing overall because I'm not sure how he helps in the short run.) The Warriors really wanted him back but it became a numbers game for them being so close to the lux tax, and then when they made their big cap clearing trade Iggy became the main focus. They will miss him.

Point being his "bouncing" around the league comments aren't totally fair, as the Warriors would've gladly had him back for 3 or 4 more seasons if the $ituation was a little different.

Which is always a story with a player of some talent who just isn't really a keeper except under ideal circumstances. The Warriors saw him play, declined to dump a silly contract on him like we did, and just went and got Speights instead. That's about the journeyman level we are talking about here.

And mind you if we were a different team with different strengths and weaknesses adding a journeyman one dimensional scorer (Speights qualifies too) could even be an ok move, although never much more than that. But for us, knowing who our franchise guy is, claiming financial flexibility is key then dumping a 4yr deal on an aging guy nobody else is in a bidding war for...

 

[Hallama]

It's not that he doesn't have a place in the league. It's just that he's way less useful on a team with massive needs he doesn't meet and whose only star talent is a low post player that struggles to defend.

I think he meets several needs; front court bench scoring, low-post scoring, nice mid-range jumper. He's a third big...unfortunately the Kings have a gaping need for the second big. He's definitely better than PPat or JT right now - he's sort of a hybrid of both their games in a strange way. The unfortunate part is now the Kings have JT, PPat, and Chuck and one or two will turn to dust unless one or two is traded.

I don't have high expectations for this season, so I'm willing to give Landry a chance to fit in.

 

[Hallama]

Which is always a story with a player of some talent who just isn't really a keeper except under ideal circumstances. The Warriors saw him play, declined to dump a silly contract on him like we did, and just went and got Speights instead. That's about the journeyman level we are talking about here.

And mind you if we were a different team with different strengths and weaknesses adding a journeyman one dimensional scorer (Speights qualifies too) could even be an ok move, although never much more than that. But for us, knowing who our franchise guy is, claiming financial flexibility is key then dumping a 4yr deal on an aging guy nobody else is in a bidding war for...

They would take Landry over Speights 10 out 10 times, it was just the way their offseason unfolded that they lost Landry. It really became a question of do you want Iggy, or do you want to keep Landry/Jack? Speights became an option with part of their MLE after Denver agreed to S&T Iggy - no S&T, and the Warriors would've lost out on the MLE. Before Utah agreed to take on Biedrins, Jefferson, and Rush (almost a GM miracle right there) the W's were stuck against the lux tax and really had their hands tied in regards to resigning Landry, or Jack, or both.

Probably unfair to say other teams weren't interested in Landry - Clippers for one were very interested but they couldn't come up with a S&T to get him.

 

[sdballer]

I think he meets several needs; front court bench scoring, low-post scoring, nice mid-range jumper. He's a third big...unfortunately the Kings have a gaping need for the second big. He's definitely better than PPat or JT right now - he's sort of a hybrid of both their games in a strange way. The unfortunate part is now the Kings have JT, PPat, and Chuck and one or two will turn to dust unless one or two is traded.

I don't have high expectations for this season, so I'm willing to give Landry a chance to fit in.

Clearly we aren't going to see eye to eye on this but if we listed all of the needs this team had going in to the off-season the 3 strengths you mentioned wouldn't even be near the top. He may be better than JT or PPat but they both bring things (JT-rebounding and d, PPAt- stretch four) that actually may be more beneficial to the team than a low post, bench scorer.

 

[Bricklayer]

He's definitely better than PPat or JT right now

I think that's highly debateable. If Landry wants to repeat his career best rebounding last year, and Jason wants to repeat his career worst, maybe we can build a case. Otherwise, these are all the same level of guy, and Jason and PPat both have in demand abilities (size to play center, and stretch/3pt shooting).

 

[Padrino]

I think he meets several needs; front court bench scoring, low-post scoring, nice mid-range jumper. He's a third big...unfortunately the Kings have a gaping need for the second big. He's definitely better than PPat or JT right now - he's sort of a hybrid of both their games in a strange way. The unfortunate part is now the Kings have JT, PPat, and Chuck and one or two will turn to dust unless one or two is traded.

I don't have high expectations for this season, so I'm willing to give Landry a chance to fit in.

those are not "needs," given the current make-up of this roster. those are "luxuries." the kings need tremendous improvement on defense, and they need additional help when it comes to rebounding. what they don't need is more scoring. at 36.4 points per game, the kings' bench was 9th in the league in scoring. at 100.2 points per game, the kings were 10th overall in the league in scoring...

 

[Hallama]

Clearly we aren't going to see eye to eye on this but if we listed all of the needs this team had going in to the off-season the 3 strengths you mentioned wouldn't even be near the top. He may be better than JT or PPat but they both bring things (JT-rebounding and d, PPAt- stretch four) that actually may be more beneficial to the team than a low post, bench scorer.

Maybe not, but it was definitely a "need" according to PeteD's actions. Now I wonder who he and Malone - PPat, or JT - felt like Landry would be a better fit over. One of those guys minutes will be going down, that's for sure. Chuck is just a dead weight, unless god forbid they are going to use him as the backup C.

 

[Hallama]

those are not "needs," given the current make-up of this roster. those are "luxuries." the kings need tremendous improvement on defense, and they need additional help when it comes to rebounding. what they don't need is more scoring. at 36.4 points per game, the kings' bench was 9th in the league in scoring. at 100.2 points per game, the kings were 10th overall in the league in scoring...

I think low post scoring, bench scoring from the front court, and a good team defender are a huge need for every NBA team. I agree this team has a ton of other needs, and it may take a year or two to acquire them.

 

[sdballer]

I think low post scoring, bench scoring from the front court, and a good team defender are a huge need for every NBA team. I agree this team has a ton of other needs, and it may take a year or two to acquire them.

Our primary 35+ minute a guy star is already a low post scorer and JT or PPAT could fill in for the 10 minutes a game he isn't in. Plus, he's not a good team defender.

Why am I even arguing this?

 

[Hallama]

Our primary 35+ minute a guy star is already a low post scorer and JT or PPAT could fill in for the 10 minutes a game he isn't in. Plus, he's not a good team defender.

Why am I even arguing this?

Who's arguing?

I think Landry has value to this team. Wasn't really thrilled with the signing at first, but if the other areas get filled in then he's a nice piece - but more towards years 2-4 of this contract.

I thought Landry played good team D last season - some of his stats might be a little skewed because he actually played C at times when the Warriors went small.

A nice shot blocking PF/C (like Amir Johnson type) would fit nicely with both Cousins and Landry...but I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's see if Pete'D can turn PPat/JT/Chuck into something that fits this team better. As is, yeah, he's not a great fit but he's not as bad as some are making him out to be.

 

[bajaden]

Two things:

1. Someone's evaluation of Carl Landry's defense using the same synergy stats you referenced (sorry it's long):

Defending Isolation: 0.88 PPP
Power Forwards with similar efficiency: Pau Gasol, Ilyasova, Ryan Anderson
Landry quite consistently gives his man a lot of space in isolation. The end result is that his contest does not alter the shot. Teams also get him to switch onto guards out of the pick and roll (appears to just be the way GS was defending it on those plays) and then he just lacked the quickness to really stop the guard.

Defending the Post: 0.86 PPP
Power Forwards with similar efficiency: David Lee, Blake Griffin, Tobias Harris, Thad Young, Ibaka, Faried, Amir Johnson, Ryan Anderson, Scola
Landry is an average post defender. He doesn’t let his man push him around, but physically just doesn’t have an answer for length. The Spurs liked to run a low screen away from the ball to force a switch of Landry onto Duncan to exploit this. However, when David Lee was in the game, Landry just started out on Duncan. However, he handles power moves in matchups with players like David West well and his strength can sometimes keep longer players away from their spots.

Defending P&R: 0.85 PPP
Power Forwards with similar efficiency: Z-Bo, Pau Gasol
Landry does not hedge the pick and roll opting instead to remain in the paint. This part is a Golden State thing. The Carl Landry thing is that once the pass is made to the big on the perimeter, he doesn’t close out. With the same scheme, David Lee only allows 0.60 PPP because he doesn’t zero in on watching the basketball like Landry. On the bright side, he does position himself to prevent the big man from getting inside. This appears to be a quickness issue where Landry is forced to give up open jumpers to bigs to keep them from getting inside. The numbers aren’t terrible because Mark Jackson did a good job keeping him on bigs who were less comfortable taking that jump shot coming off the roll.

Defending Spot Up Shooters: 1.26 PPP
Power Forwards with similar efficiency: Even Luke Babbit is only 1.13
Before watching the tape, the previous situations suggest that Landry offers up the jump shot to cover for his lack of quickness defending drives and lacks length to contest shots. After watching the tape, Landry gets sucked inside easily and lacks the quickness to get out to the perimeter or the length to contest shots. Landry gives up 49.6% shooting and an astounding 53% from behind the arc. For reference, Steph Curry and Steve Novak shot 57% from behind the arc at this year’s 3 point contest.


2. You can't suggest other's cherry pick stats and then throw the rebounding vs Thompson stats out there when that's a one year example. Over the course of their careers Thompson averages 9.4/36 minutes vs Landry's 7.8/36 minutes. A pretty big difference.

No where in my post did I suggest that Landry is the next coming of a great defender. My problem is with the extreme talk. As I said, there's a difference between being a great defender, to not playing defense at all. I just don't like extreme's. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Sorry about JT, but he was a convenient target. No doubt JT had one of his bad years, and Landry had one of his better years. But Landry's worse rebounding years were when he last played for the Kings. Never said he was a great rebounder, but he's also not a terrible rebounder. Why is it so hard for you or anyone else to understand what I'm talking about. I'm not against criticism, but I'm tired of the extreme's when someone doesn't like a player.

And, by the way, where did I suggest that anyone cherry picked stats. I never referred to any stats other than suggesting doing some research, and showed that at least last year Landry out rebounded JT, who I happen to like. Go back and re-read what I wrote. I think its fair. I never said he was great at anything. All I was saying is that he's certainly not terrible, and thats what was being implied.

 

[pshn80]

I think Landry has significant value to this team and I think Coach Malone and FO do, too.

 

[bajaden]

I hate to QFT, but there does need to be some attempt to draw this back out of fantasyland to a point of possible agreement, and that's the best shot right there. Trying to pump Carl bleeping Landry up into some do it all superhero is not.

Who, praytell is trying to pump up Landry into a super hero? Certainly not me! I know exactly what Landry is, and that's a good bench player that can come in and get you 10 or so points a game and 6 or so rebounds a game. Hardly the definition of a super hero. He is what his, but he's certainly not terrible or a piece of crap, as some would imply. What I'm sick and tired of, is whenever someone try's to find a little to be optimistic about, everyone else seems to take joy in jumping down their throat. You want to bring the conversation back to reality, then stop making statements like "Trying to pump Carl bleeping Landry up into some do it all superhero". I mean, just who the hell has done that? That's what I'm talking about when I say extreme.

I'll admit that I haven't read all the posts, so maybe I missed some idiot out there that does think Landry is a superhero. Maybe not!

 

[Gary]

Who, praytell is trying to pump up Landry into a super hero? Certainly not me! I know exactly what Landry is, and that's a good bench player that can come in and get you 10 or so points a game and 6 or so rebounds a game. Hardly the definition of a super hero. He is what his, but he's certainly not terrible or a piece of crap, as some would imply. What I'm sick and tired of, is whenever someone try's to find a little to be optimistic about, everyone else seems to take joy in jumping down their throat. You want to bring the conversation back to reality, then stop making statements like "Trying to pump Carl bleeping Landry up into some do it all superhero". I mean, just who the hell has done that? That's what I'm talking about when I say extreme.

I'll admit that I haven't read all the posts, so maybe I missed some idiot out there that does think Landry is a superhero. Maybe not!

Yah.. I didn't get where Brick was coming from either. Pretty much what most of us are saying is that he's not as terrible as Brick and a few others say he is. If by saying he's not terrible and could possibly help the team is calling him a "superhero" as Brick stated then I have no idea how to respond.

I haven't seen anyone hyping Landry to the extent that Brick has said, but at the same time we have people calling out all the negative nancys who are portraying him as the worst player in the NBA. According to some of those people Landry has the ball 100% of the time, and cannot rebound, and has never passed the ball and cannot do anything besides stand there and take shots out of the post, while at the same time pushing Cousins out of the post so that Landry can get his own shots.

 

[DesertFox]

Hard to see how this team got any better from a talent or even fit standpoint. So a team that is competitive but still loses more than it wins is all I can hope for.

As far as Landry, he is a solid NBA player, maybe even a starter in certain situations. But not on this team, and the difference between him and JT and Pat is not worth an additional 6 million a year. Because that is the cost, as nothing was subtracted, and there is still a need for another center.

 

[pshn80]

I suspect we're getting another C or big if the gods smile upon our front office. I hope so. Meantime, I don't think Landry needs to apologize for being picked first.

 

[Bricklayer]

Who, praytell is trying to pump up Landry into a super hero? Certainly not me! I know exactly what Landry is, and that's a good bench player that can come in and get you 10 or so points a game and 6 or so rebounds a game. Hardly the definition of a super hero. He is what his, but he's certainly not terrible or a piece of crap, as some would imply. What I'm sick and tired of, is whenever someone try's to find a little to be optimistic about, everyone else seems to take joy in jumping down their throat. You want to bring the conversation back to reality, then stop making statements like "Trying to pump Carl bleeping Landry up into some do it all superhero". I mean, just who the hell has done that? That's what I'm talking about when I say extreme.

I'll admit that I haven't read all the posts, so maybe I missed some idiot out there that does think Landry is a superhero. Maybe not!

Once people deny all his weaknesses, he actually is one of the best players in the NBA because he is in fact a good scorer. Thus it amounts to the same thing.

I'm going to throw out two statlines here.

17.4pts (.536 .784) 7.8reb 1.1ast 0.7stl 0.7blk 2.0TO
11.4pts (.551 .743) 7.7reb 1.4ast 0.6stl 1.1blk 1.9TO

The first is Carl Landry's per 36 minute production over his career.

The second is Mikki Moore's per 36 minute production over his career.

Now, not one single person I can think would argue that Carl Landry isn't a far better player than Mikki Moore, but when you look at those numbers, the only thing he is clearly better at is scoring. And so yes, I'll accept arguments that Landry is something other than a blackhole who doesn't board (particularly on the defensive glass) or pass the ball once he's remotely in scoring position...just so long as those arguments laud our old favorite punching bag Mikki for his incredible prowess in those areas too. We dropped $6mil a year on a scorer who in all other ways has been roughly as productive as Mikki Moore over his career.

I would like to move forward with that fairly hard to dispute fact as the backdrop. Hence my highlighting of one of 2 or 3 possibilities to explain such an apaprently tone deaf maneuver (the main possibilities I can come up with are 1) Malone safety blanket/teacher's aide; 2) pandering to Sacto fans in mistaken belief we have fond memories of the Landry era; 3) Sacto still toxic/only free agent we could get to come was guy who knows Sacto and knows Malone; 4) stashing obviously duplicative MLE type PF so as to free up existing MLE PFs for trade. I actually like #4 as my favorite of those secnarios, because its actually a strategy move. But its also just as likely #1 - #3. But we can't talk about any of those so long as what we really did was sign this well rounded obviously highly in demand and quite superior to our current PFs player for what in that light is a heck of a bargain deal. And people know better than that, and I know they know better than that.

 

[The_Jamal]

Once you deny all his weaknesses, he actually is one of the best players in the NBA. It amounts to the same thing.

I'm going to throw out two statlines here.

17.4pts (.536 .784) 7.8reb 1.1ast 0.7stl 0.7blk 2.0TO
11.4pts (.551 .743) 7.7reb 1.4ast 0.6stl 1.1blk 1.9TO

The first is Carl Landry's per 36 minute production over his career.

The second is Mikki Moore's per 36 minute production over his career.

Now, not one single person I can think would argue that Carl Landry isn't a far better player than Mikki Moore, but when you look at those numbers, the only thing he is clearly better at is scoring. And so yes, I'll accept arguments that Landry is something other than a blackhole who doesn't board (particularly on the defensive glass) or pass the ball once he's remotely in scoring position...just so long as those arguments laud our old favorite punching bag Mikki for his incredible prowess in those areas too. We dropped $6mil a year on a scorer who in all other ways has been roughly as productive as Mikki Moore over his career.

I love when you blow nonsense out your tuckus. There's nothing remotely similar about Mikki and Carl's game.

But if you want to think you have the last word and that you "won" the internet, be my guest. The fans who have any sliver of optimism will go hide in a corner now.

 

[sdballer]

I suspect we're getting another C or big if the gods smile upon our front office. I hope so. Meantime, I don't think Landry needs to apologize for being picked first.

Thank goodness someone finally posted this because I was getting so tired of people holding Carl responsible for the confusing signing.

 

[Bricklayer]

I love when you blow nonsense out your tuckus. There's nothing remotely similar about Mikki and Carl's game.

But if you want to think you have the last word and that you "won" the internet, be my guest. The fans who have any sliver of optimism will go hide in a corner now.

Now see, for your own edification what you did there is dangerously close to the "strawman" process. You know as well as I do that I did not at any point say there was anything similar about Carl and Mikki's game. That's what a strawman argument is -- when you can't beat the actual argument, you pretend to misunderstand, and then make up an easy one to beat.

 

[sdballer]

No where in my post did I suggest that Landry is the next coming of a great defender. My problem is with the extreme talk. As I said, there's a difference between being a great defender, to not playing defense at all. I just don't like extreme's. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Sorry about JT, but he was a convenient target. No doubt JT had one of his bad years, and Landry had one of his better years. But Landry's worse rebounding years were when he last played for the Kings. Never said he was a great rebounder, but he's also not a terrible rebounder. Why is it so hard for you or anyone else to understand what I'm talking about. I'm not against criticism, but I'm tired of the extreme's when someone doesn't like a player.

And, by the way, where did I suggest that anyone cherry picked stats. I never referred to any stats other than suggesting doing some research, and showed that at least last year Landry out rebounded JT, who I happen to like. Go back and re-read what I wrote. I think its fair. I never said he was great at anything. All I was saying is that he's certainly not terrible, and thats what was being implied.

I don't think there is a reading comprehension problem on my end. Padrino stated that Landry wasn't a good low post defender. You posted that it was ignorance to claim he wasn't a defender and to check out his synergy stats. I posted the same stats that illustrate he isn't a good defender.

You then claim I have reading comprehension problems because you never stated he was a great defender which I never claimed once in my post.

The extremes thing is funny. There are multiple posts on here from people defending Landry and the FO from people claiming Landry sucks, is worthless, garbage, has no value, doesn't do anything well, etc. Yet I can't really find the posts that ever claim such a thing.

Its been a weird offseason around here. For all the negativity supposedly coming from the glass half empty guys, it's at least mostly based on stats, nba history, and strategic team building principles. Why is there such a need to shout these down with arguments about what Vivek has done for the city, general benefit of the doubt, crystal ball uncertainty, etc. Not claiming this is always the case and there are obviously intelligent posters like yourself that don't do this. I just encourage anyone frustrated with the negative crowd to go back and look at the challenge of trying to make a basketball related analysis only to have it refuted with that kind of ra-ra nonsense repeatedly.

Overly long rant done.

 

[The_Jamal]

Now see, for your own edification what you did there is dangerously close to the "strawman" process. You know as well as I do that I did not at any point say there was anything similar about Carl and Mikki's game. That's what a strawman argument is -- when you can't beat the actual argument, you pretend to misunderstand, and then make up an easy one to beat.

Why are you posting pointless PER 36 stats if you're not trying to draw a comparison to them then?

Carl has one of the more refined post games in the NBA. That+him knowing Malone's system+Vet leadership+Toughness+Bball IQ is what we're paying for. Whether right, wrong, or indifferent, that's what we're going to get with Carl. And Malone is a guy who knows exactly how to use Carl, so i'm extremely confident we'll be able to see him mirror his year in GS. Which is good for us.

 

[sdballer]

Why are you posting pointless PER 36 stats if you're not trying to draw a comparison to them then?

Carl has one of the more refined post games in the NBA. That+him knowing Malone's system+Vet leadership+Toughness+Bball IQ is what we're paying for. Whether right, wrong, or indifferent, that's what we're going to get with Carl. And Malone is a guy who knows exactly how to use Carl, so i'm extremely confident we'll be able to see him mirror his year in GS. Which is good for us.

A genuinely curious question but how do you define Carl having a high bball iq? I've seen that used a lot when talking about his value and I personally haven't seen that from him on offense or defense but I'm curious as to what you see.

Not suggesting he has a low bball iq. It just seems to me his demeanor, personality and off court intelligence over-inflates his on-court iq.