Hey Professor: What does "toughness" mean?

[Telemachus]

I think those three guys are the embodiment of what Bilas is espousing. The toughness is the state of mind, and the focus to execute the fundamental correct play under pressure and duress.

I agree that they all had those qualities, it was their never back down attitude that made them tough. A player like Hamilton plays fundamentally sound, and plays well under pressure, but I wouldn't call him tough. He gets pushed around too much IMO, while the other 3 I mentioned always pushed back and made thier presense felt.

 

[dbfish]

Bill Laimbeer was TOUGH!

Artest was tough but not mentally tough ...

...and mentally tough. A lot of people called him dirty. A well placed elbow here. A hip there. A hard foul when it was warrented. He was intelligently dirty, but he kept the other team off balance and looking over their shoulder. OK he was dirty, but I don't think there was anybody in the league that wouldn't have liked him as a teammate. Everything he did on the court was calculated to do whatever it took to win.

 

[VF21]

...and mentally tough. A lot of people called him dirty. A well placed elbow here. A hip there. A hard foul when it was warrented. He was intelligently dirty, but he kept the other team off balance and looking over their shoulder. OK he was dirty, but I don't think there was anybody in the league that wouldn't have liked him as a teammate. Everything he did on the court was calculated to do whatever it took to win.

I don't think I've ever heard that description before, but it's incredibly apt...

 

[hammystyle]

I agree that they all had those qualities, it was their never back down attitude that made them tough. A player like Hamilton plays fundamentally sound, and plays well under pressure, but I wouldn't call him tough. He gets pushed around too much IMO, while the other 3 I mentioned always pushed back and made thier presense felt.

When did Stockton or Hornacek ever push anyone? When did Miller ever make his presence felt physically?

Either way, even if they had, what does that bring to the basketball court? Was there a player ever intimidated by Jeff Hornacek?

Those guys were respected because they devastated with simple execution.

I think Hamilton fits right in there with those guys in terms of toughness, if not talent, and also, he's the one who was the leading scorer on a Championship team.

 

[Bricklayer]

When did Stockton or Hornacek ever push anyone? When did Miller ever make his presence felt physically?

Either way, even if they had, what does that bring to the basketball court? Was there a player ever intimidated by Jeff Hornacek?

Those guys were respected because they devastated with simple execution.

I think Hamilton fits right in there with those guys in terms of toughness, if not talent, and also, he's the one who was the leading scorer on a Championship team.

Stockton at least, and possibly Hornacek just because of the Sloan connectin, was/were extremely tough for their position. And no tough does not equal gee they executed well. Stockton was a tough dirty nasty little street fighter in there. He'd mix it up with the big guys, give you a little chuck, and take whatever you dished out the other way. He also loved to stick the dagger in when it mattered too. He was a mean little bugger. I'm not really 100% on board with the Hornacek designation, but certainly as part of the Sloan teams he was in there setting back screens and chucking cutters like everybody else.

 

[hammystyle]

Stockton at least, and possibly Hornacek just because of the Sloan connectin, was/were extremely tough for their position. And no tough does not equal gee they executed well. Stockton was a tough dirty nasty little street fighter in there. He'd mix it up with the big guys, give you a little chuck, and take whatever you dished out the other way. He also loved to stick the dagger in when it mattered too. He was a mean little bugger. I'm not really 100% on board with the Hornacek designation, but certainly as part of the Sloan teams he was in there setting back screens and chucking cutters like everybody else.

Look at Bilas list again...the first thing there is "Set good screens", also on the list, "Stand up a cutter"...and sticking the dagger is just making a tough shot when it counts.

 

[Bricklayer]

Look at Bilas list again...the first thing there is "Set good screens", also on the list, "Stand up a cutter"...and sticking the dagger is just making a tough shot when it counts.

Yes, and I mentioned that his little brownnose the coach list had some toughness things included in it. On the other hand it also had "talk on defense" "get your hands up" "close out under control" "work on your pass" and "catch and face". Again (and again) being tough is not == being fundamental. Stockton "working on his pass" had absolutely nothing to do with him being tough. Him setting a mean backscreen on 260lb centers did.

 

[VF21]

Yes, and I mentioned that his little brownnose the coach list had some toughness things included in it. On the other hand it also had "talk on defense" "get your hands up" "close out under control" "work on your pass" and "catch and face". Again (and again) being tough is not == being fundamental. Stockton "working on his pass" had absolutely nothing to do with him being tough. Him setting a mean backscreen on 260lb centers did.

I still shudder at the memory of those picks AND the innocent stare he'd give the officials if they even looked like they were going to blow the whistle on him.

I truly believe John Stockton was one of the dirtiest players in the modern era but his "angelic" face allowed him to get away with things way too often.

 

[Entity]

I still shudder at the memory of those picks AND the innocent stare he'd give the officials if they even looked like they were going to blow the whistle on him.

I truly believe John Stockton was one of the dirtiest players in the modern era but his "angelic" face allowed him to get away with things way too often.

I am the same way. The angelic face and all.

 

[Kings Faithful]

John Stockton was a hell of a player, one of my favorites. I loved him and Karl Malone.