Has IT's run come to an end?

cuad said:
This thread is one big joke. The Kings were ahead 41-31 with Isaiah on the floor. Cousins, Thornton and Donte Greene all sucked more than Isaiah in the third quarter.

1a: Cousins
1b: Thornton
3: Greene
4: Thomas
5: Evans

The next time Isaiah came in, the Kings were down nine, but they got within three (85-82).
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Trying to blame any of that on Isiah last night is the big joke. He was clearly the weakest of the starters in the early going while they played well, and if most of the rest of them eventually fell down to join him, that still didn't make IT's performance good or certainly not the reason we were doing well.
 
jcwkings said:
Beno is the ideal starter with someone like Tyreke at the 2. I think offensively he will get there in a couple of seasons, but defensively could be a big liability against elite pg's.
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Fixed that for you.

And closer to "adequate" than ideal.

The thing is, at NO point was Tyreke ever supposed to be out there trying to create for everybody alone. He never has been. For his first couple of years it was Beno who split the playmaking duties, and we scored at a decent rate despite a lousy roster. This year the front office's plan was to 1) buy into the Jimmermania hype and have him play...well that wasn't clear. Was he actually going to displace Thornton? Not sure. And then Salmons, hard as it is to beleive, was going to come in and help with the "ballhandling". John always having had some guard skils you see. Anyway, the plan was never for Reke to carry the load alone. Its just that this year's plan for the "support handlers" failed miserably. Now IT becomes the latest secondary handler with Reke, except the problem is he's not a secondary handler. He's ball dominant. And little. Thus forcing Reke up out onto the wing so that now we are undersized at the 1, 2, and 3. And that is all not what you are ideally looking for unless that little guy is REALLY kicking ***.

All in all the basic truth remains we were better off when we had Beno playing that role than we have been with all the undersized, too old or young, mismatched riff raff we have tried to fill it with this year. Beno was not perfect, but he was solid and could play the role wihtout disrupting the main guys. We haven't found anybody this season even remotely as good a fit yet.
 
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Bricklayer said:
Fixed that for you.

And closer to "adequate" than ideal.

The thing is, at NO point was Tyreke ever supposed to be out there trying to create for everybody alone. He never has been. For his first couple of years it was Beno who split the playmaking duties, and we scored at a decent rate despite a lousy roster. This year the front office's plan was to 1) buy into the Jimmermania hype and have him play...well that wsn't clear. Was he actually going to dispalce Thornton? Not sure. And then Salmons, hard as it is to beleive, was going to come in and help with the "ballhandling". John always having had some guard skils you see. Anyway, the plan was never for Reke to carry the load alone. Its just that this year's plan for the 'support handlers" failed miserably. Now IT becomes the latest secondary handler with Reke, except the problem is he's not a secondary handler. He's ball dominant. And little. Thus forcing Reke up out onto the wing so that now we are undersized at the 1, 2, and 3. And that is all not what you are ideally looking for unless that little guy is REALLY kicking ***.

Al in all the basic truth remains we were better off when we had Beno playing that role than we have been with all the undersized, too old or young, mismatched riff raff we have tried to fill it with this year. Beno was not perfect, but he was solid and could play the role wihtout disrupting the main guys. We haven't found anybody this season even remotely as good a fit yet.
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Not to mention Beno worked well with Thornton too when Reke was out. Beno was also the main target for Cousins backdoor passes. Such a bad trade.
 
Since the conversation has turned to Beno I thought I'd mention that all reports out of Mil suggest he's unhappy. Interestingly, he has a player option after this season I highly doubt he uses.

His wife who he recently married is from Sac. He spent full off seasons here and loves it here. I would not at all be surprised if he's back next year as a backup point.

Just worried that might lead to a IT/Beno/MT/Reke/Cuz lineup unless something changes with our coaches philosophy.
 
Kingster said:
If IT shouldn't be the point guard now, then who should? Tyreke? There we do have a large body of work to go by, not a few games. That experiment has been repeated, with the same results. And it ain't pretty.
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In the 8 games before IT started at the point, Evans averaged 16pts, 5.625ast, and 5 rebs per with wins over Portland, New Orleans, Golden State, and OKC.

Since IT took over at the point (8 games), we've beaten Washington and Utah. IT's statline: 16pts 5.75 ast, and 4 rebs per.

What you call ugly, I call developing an identity and showing improvement. They went toe to toe with OKC, and as of late haven't matched up with any of the elite teams they've played.

Reke's statline since then has been 16pts, 4.75ast and 5.5 rebs, FWIW. Kudos to him for trying to adapt to a position where he is now at a disadvantage.
 
I don't know that stats but it seems like the offense has been way better with Isaiah on the floor. They could barely scratch 100pts all year and it seems like 100pts is commonplace when he's starting. Defense seems like it's suffering though but that's due partly because of him and partly because Tyreke has to cover SF's.

Last night Thomas was doing the best job covering Nash. Thornton and Tyreke routinely got lost while trying to cover him.
 
PPG is not a great predictor by itself of how good an offense is. I am not convinced we were/are getting beat due to poor offensive production. IT definitely increases our point scoring ability but I think just compounds our biggest problem. We have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league all season. Which is interesting because we are an average team when it comes to turnovers and rebounding meaning that teams aren't exploiting our defense in transition. Our half court D is just terrible.
 
Spike said:
In the 8 games before IT started at the point, Evans averaged 16pts, 5.625ast, and 5 rebs per with wins over Portland, New Orleans, Golden State, and OKC.

Since IT took over at the point (8 games), we've beaten Washington and Utah. IT's statline: 16pts 5.75 ast, and 4 rebs per.

What you call ugly, I call developing an identity and showing improvement. They went toe to toe with OKC, and as of late haven't matched up with any of the elite teams they've played.

Reke's statline since then has been 16pts, 4.75ast and 5.5 rebs, FWIW. Kudos to him for trying to adapt to a position where he is now at a disadvantage.
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As I've mentioned before the key wasn't IT arriving IN PLACE of Reke, it was IT arriving NEXT to Reke, and in place of Salmons. Isiah alone isn't worth much more than Reke as a distributor. he too likes his shot. But Isiah and Reke together -- like Isiah and Beno of previous years -- is better than Reke and Salmons, or ISaih and Salmons, or anybody and Salmons.

The key is to have that second distributor out there with Reke, no matter who it is. Just a question of finding the one who fits best.
 
Bricklayer said:
As I've mentioned before the key wasn't IT arriving IN PLACE of Reke, it was IT arriving NEXT to Reke, and in place of Salmons. Isiah alone isn't worth much more than Reke as a distributor. he too likes his shot. But Isiah and Reke together -- like Isiah and Beno of previous years -- is better than Reke and Salmons, or ISaih and Salmons, or anybody and Salmons.

The key is to have that second distributor out there with Reke, no matter who it is. Just a question of finding the one who fits best.
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remind me...didn't we do this well and the end of last year with Tyreke and Thornton starting and then Beno subbing in and playing some minutes with each guy? Couldn't Isaiah just take Beno's heavy rotation minutes?

Other than having a crew of SFs playing to their career lows and forcing this 3 guard thing for now it seems like the above is a possible solution long term
 
sidney said:
remind me...didn't we do this well and the end of last year with Tyreke and Thornton starting and then Beno subbing in and playing some minutes with each guy? Couldn't Isaiah just take Beno's heavy rotation minutes?
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Consider yourself reminded and confirmed.
 
Spike said:
In the 8 games before IT started at the point, Evans averaged 16pts, 5.625ast, and 5 rebs per with wins over Portland, New Orleans, Golden State, and OKC.

Since IT took over at the point (8 games), we've beaten Washington and Utah. IT's statline: 16pts 5.75 ast, and 4 rebs per.

What you call ugly, I call developing an identity and showing improvement. They went toe to toe with OKC, and as of late haven't matched up with any of the elite teams they've played.

Reke's statline since then has been 16pts, 4.75ast and 5.5 rebs, FWIW. Kudos to him for trying to adapt to a position where he is now at a disadvantage.
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I think we agree. For now, I like Tyreke at the 3 and I like IT at the 1 as the primary ballhandler. That seems to be what you're saying. Yes? No?
I have nothing but praises for Tyreke trying to adapt to the three position. He's still loafing a bit on D, especially when he doesn't get the ball, but hopefully that improves with time. I just don't want him to go back to pg. Too much dribble, dribble, dribble, too low BB IQ, too little versatility for a position that requires much versatility.
 
Bricklayer said:
Fixed that for you.

All in all the basic truth remains we were better off when we had Beno playing that role than we have been with all the undersized, too old or young, mismatched riff raff we have tried to fill it with this year. Beno was not perfect, but he was solid and could play the role wihtout disrupting the main guys. We haven't found anybody this season even remotely as good a fit yet.
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Good points (everyone) about Beno's importance on this team, and how there's a hole in the roster now.

I wish this board had been more vocal about his contributions and adequacy when he was here, but it's nice to see people come around on that point after the fact.
 
IfAt1st said:
Good points (everyone) about Beno's importance on this team, and how there's a hole in the roster now.

I wish this board had been more vocal about his contributions and adequacy when he was here, but it's nice to see people come around on that point after the fact.
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I'm pretty sure we were all in support of Beno. We knew he wasn't perfect, but he did his job well. I can't think of anyone in favor of trading for Salmons, but there was a fair amount of rationalization in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, it would have worked out.
 
Kingster said:
I think we agree. For now, I like Tyreke at the 3 and I like IT at the 1 as the primary ballhandler. That seems to be what you're saying. Yes? No?
I have nothing but praises for Tyreke trying to adapt to the three position. He's still loafing a bit on D, especially when he doesn't get the ball, but hopefully that improves with time. I just don't want him to go back to pg. Too much dribble, dribble, dribble, too low BB IQ, too little versatility for a position that requires much versatility.
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I don't agree at all, but we're fine to leave it at that. I think Tyreke having to adapt to multiple positions and still being successful (jump shot aside) shows a lot more intelligence than people give him credit for. And that take yesterday at the end of the quarter? Beautiful.
If IT remains the starter, which you know I'm not a fan of, I think Evans needs to be at the 2 spot. Anyway, time to grab a beer and check out the game.
 
IT's biggest problem is that he plays on this team. While this team is very young, they are also very selfish. Their is certainly a "get mine" culture to this team. Trying to be a team player on a team like this is a losing battle. My theory is not that other teams have acknowledged Isaiah as a threat, but rather the kings players have acknowledged him as a threat.
 
Dembonez said:
IT's biggest problem is that he plays on this team. While this team is very young, they are also very selfish. Their is certainly a "get mine" culture to this team. Trying to be a team player on a team like this is a losing battle. My theory is not that other teams have acknowledged Isaiah as a threat, but rather the kings players have acknowledged him as a threat.
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Which is probably why he has frozen them out and decided to just force up his own junk instead. Revenge?

He's the 5'9" 60th pick in the whole draft. iIf he turns out to not be a starting PG in the NBA the entire galaxy of surprised people will be countable on one hand.
 
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IfAt1st said:
Good points (everyone) about Beno's importance on this team, and how there's a hole in the roster now.

I wish this board had been more vocal about his contributions and adequacy when he was here, but it's nice to see people come around on that point after the fact.
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This board more vocal about a positive attribute of an ordinary player who is not ?????? Fat chance. All any of us need to do is to read our entries day in and day out. We usually indict at least three or four different people for every BB crime committed. But your point is well taken.
 
Dembonez said:
IT's biggest problem is that he plays on this team. While this team is very young, they are also very selfish. Their is certainly a "get mine" culture to this team. Trying to be a team player on a team like this is a losing battle. My theory is not that other teams have acknowledged Isaiah as a threat, but rather the kings players have acknowledged him as a threat.
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This Isaiah vs Tyreke thing is getting absurd. I love the fact that he has shown to be an nba player, despite being the last pick in the draft. I love his energy and I think he can develop into a very nice change of pace guard off the bench. But changing the whole dynamic of the team, shuffling Tyreke to a position where he loses all natural advantages offensively and defensively and encouraging our coach to try even more small ball shenanigans is crazy.

He was the last pick for a reason, which isn't a criticism or a suggestion that GM's don't miss on guys. The fact is he's undersized which causes problems defensively and he is a score-first pg. Doesn't mean he never looks for other guys or didn't contribute more to a point producing offense than Salmons but if we seriously think the current course of this lineup has long term positive benefits to the team, I don't know what to think.

Tyreke has a lot to learn about playing a team game. I think he was making strides under Smart. Throwing him at sf only sets his development back. IT needs to spearhead the bench unit and let's get back to teaching Evans how to run a team, in a way that in unique to a number of other stars like him in the league.
 
rainmaker said:
If Donte is officially a PF.

Reke
MT
Cisco
JT
Cousins
is what I want to see immediately.
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Uhhh... No.. It took long enough for the people in charge of this team to see that Reke isn't a PG, and now you want him back at that position? ugh...

I would rather we lose and at least have 25 assists as a team than lose and have more TOs than assists as a team.
 
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sdballer said:
This Isaiah vs Tyreke thing is getting absurd. I love the fact that he has shown to be an nba player, despite being the last pick in the draft. I love his energy and I think he can develop into a very nice change of pace guard off the bench. But changing the whole dynamic of the team, shuffling Tyreke to a position where he loses all natural advantages offensively and defensively and encouraging our coach to try even more small ball shenanigans is crazy.

He was the last pick for a reason, which isn't a criticism or a suggestion that GM's don't miss on guys. The fact is he's undersized which causes problems defensively and he is a score-first pg. Doesn't mean he never looks for other guys or didn't contribute more to a point producing offense than Salmons but if we seriously think the current course of this lineup has long term positive benefits to the team, I don't know what to think.

Tyreke has a lot to learn about playing a team game. I think he was making strides under Smart. Throwing him at sf only sets his development back. IT needs to spearhead the bench unit and let's get back to teaching Evans how to run a team, in a way that in unique to a number of other stars like him in the league.
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Evans isn't a PG though... Why not ask MT to play PG then, or Garcia? It would produce similar results. Garcia has handles, Reke has handles, and MT has some as well. None of the three players I listed can see the floor like a PG should though and shouldn't be running an NBA offense for 15 minutes each game let alone the full game. It's absurd that the organization let this debacle go on as long as it did, and it would be a step backwards putting Reke back at that position.
 
Gary said:
Evans isn't a PG though... Why not ask MT to play PG then, or Garcia? It would produce similar results. Garcia has handles, Reke has handles, and MT has some as well. None of the three players I listed can see the floor like a PG should though and shouldn't be running an NBA offense for 15 minutes each game let alone the full game. It's absurd that the organization let this debacle go on as long as it did, and it would be a step backwards putting Reke back at that position.
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As usual. ridisulosu on this topic.

In his last month at PG Reke was notching more assits than Tony Parker or Russel Westbrook. The larger problems were Salmons, the bench, and defense. 4/5 of our starters, the guys out there with Reke, were playing well. Just needed support. And yes, part of that support is that instead of Salmons it would be nice to have a supplemental passer.
 
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Assists per game are a poor evaluation of PG play or maybe I should say an inadequate one. Much of seeing a real PG has to do with things that don't have an attributable statistic. I am sure there will be a long list of things that the future mocks about the present, but I expect our vanity in thinking that everything can be measured to be near the top of the list.

It has a lot to do with controlling the game, making sure the offense is run, making game clock decisions, understanding who needs the ball at the time and all sorts of bits of game management. People say Reke is not a PG because he displays very little if any competence at these things.

Thomas was doing more of these things and when he was doing these things, the team was looking.. like it had an actual idea behind it. Lately, he's fallen prey to the "gotta get my shots" mentality that has plagued the team. It also has to do with defenses adjusting to him.
 
Bricklayer said:
As usual. ridisulosu on this topic.

In his last month at PG Reke was notching more assits than Tony Parker or Russel Westbrook. The larger problems were Salmons, the bench, and defense. 4/5 of our starters, the guys out there with Reke, were playing well. Just needed support. And yes, part of that support is that instead of Salmons it would be nice to have a supplemental passer.
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So? assist totals don't mean he's a PG, and look at the team assist average with reke at PG and reke not at PG. You are watching the games right? Seriously..... You can't say the offense is smoother with reke at PG than with IT.. If you do then you are obviously not watching the games.

Please don't tell me after two and a half years of this crap that you still think Reke is a PG.. Really?!
 
Gary said:
So? assist totals don't mean he's a PG, and look at the team assist average with reke at PG and reke not at PG. You are watching the games right? Seriously..... You can't say the offense is smoother with reke at PG than with IT.. If you do then you are obviously not watching the games.

Please don't tell me after two and a half years of this crap that you still think Reke is a PG.. Really?!
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I think that he was finally showing some pretty decent progress at PG until Smart moved him to SF. Agreed, for the few games IT was playing well the offense did look smoother, but at the same time we gave up a lot more points as well IIRC. But now IT isn't playing any better than Tyreke has been historically at the point, and not setting guys up either.

The problem with a lineup of Tyreke, DMC, Thornton and IT? You have 4 guys who right now seem to want to dominate the ball. I think Tyreke should have been allowed to continue trying to play PG with proper guidance. He was getting better at it. He will NEVER be a pass-first PG, but neither is Derrick Rose or Westbrook. I'm fine with playing him at SG as well.
 
mac said:
I think that he was finally showing some pretty decent progress at PG until Smart moved him to SF. Agreed, for the few games IT was playing well the offense did look smoother, but at the same time we gave up a lot more points as well IIRC. But now IT isn't playing any better than Tyreke has been historically at the point, and not setting guys up either.

The problem with a lineup of Tyreke, DMC, Thornton and IT? You have 4 guys who right now seem to want to dominate the ball. I think Tyreke should have been allowed to continue trying to play PG with proper guidance. He was getting better at it. He will NEVER be a pass-first PG, but neither is Derrick Rose or Westbrook. I'm fine with playing him at SG as well.
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We gave up more points because we were a much more up tempo offense.. Take a loot how many more shots the opposition were getting. You are going to allow a lot fewer shots when your team holds the ball for 20 seconds each time.
 
I thought IT was playing good perimeter defense and putting the most consistent ball pressure out there of any of the team's guards. I think he's let off on that end as well. Maybe with increased minutes, he's started to worry about his energy levels.
 
I like him as a 4th guard for change of pace. But that is with the expectation that Jimmer will be ahead of him as the 3rd guy, which has yet to be shown.
He deserves a little longer to play himself out of the starting lineup.
 
Isaiah Thomas showed up at the city council meeting tonight. Just sayin'...

;)
 
It kind of bums me out that we have people wanting to give up on a guy after about 7-10 games starting for another guy that's had 2 and a half years without any improvement at that position. Add to that the guy they want to play PG isn't even as good at the PG spot as this rookie that was the last pick in the draft who has only started a handful of games.
 
Gary and swissh -
y'all are DEAD ON about Tyreke proving he can't run an NBA offense.
Sorry, that ship has sailed.
The experiment is over. I think the owners even said so, in so many words.

It doesn't matter if fans want to point at one stat and say it means everything, despite what we all saw on the court these past 2 and a half seasons - Tyreke is not, was not, and IMO will never be an NBA PG.
 
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