Guess the Player by Their Stats
- Thread starter ppine
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The second is obvious. The first likely too at that rate. I will say no more.
Entity
Hall of Famer
is player A currently in the NBA?
Entity gave it away. Actually Gay's numbers are for the whole year including games with Toronto I believe.
The numbers are remarkably similar. Gay rebounds more. Thomas gets more assists. Gay turns the ball over more despite handling it less. One player is the star of the team, and many people want to either bench or trade Thomas. If statistics don't lie, then there are some confused people around here.
The numbers are remarkably similar. Gay rebounds more. Thomas gets more assists. Gay turns the ball over more despite handling it less. One player is the star of the team, and many people want to either bench or trade Thomas. If statistics don't lie, then there are some confused people around here.
Entity
Hall of Famer
nope that is Gays numbes with Sacramento only
treach1976
Bench
Stats don't lie, but they are easily manipulated.
Chubbs
Starter
Are you even reading what you're posting?
I look at that and player b is clearly inferior, player a shoots almost 10% better and player a must be taking a lot more shots to get less points.
This isn't fantasy basketball where you just add up the averages. There's only one basketball. You look at these stats and take player A every time and build around him. Together it's probably a fight for the ball.
So let's see the numbers when they've played together.
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Entity
Hall of Famer
I didn't realize this was a pro-thomas thread. as far as the confused people go. the only confusing part is player B gets the ball, holds the ball, and shoots the ball more than Player A. that is the reason for wanting to bench or trade.
treach1976
Bench
so to be fair, OP should have posted IT's stats since Gay's arrival as well.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I wish all the stats had been posted to give a better view of the two. I get concerned when I see only a few of the available stats as I fear there is cherry picking. What exactly will be proven with this? No one is going to change their mind. No one ever does. How many threads do we have for IT? And how many non IT threads will turn into IT threads? I find these threads more aggravating than anything else at this point. I am sure who starts them thinks they are accomplishing something but they aren't. Now we even have a thread for IT tweets,. Somebody, please, find the humor in that. 
I know why VF21 did that and it is not really a criticism of her but look at where we are going. Are we going to have a thread to track how often IT pees in a day?
I understand it is difficult to separate out what the pg does from what the rest of the team does but let's try. Please? I hope Ray gets a little time. He could be interesting although he lacks the aggravation factor and won't be popular to argue about. I even am wondering if we should take a closer look at Malone. I am thrilled beyond belief that he is our coach but I think he is getting caught up in something that is making him say one thing and do another. He's a rookie. And speaking of rookies, no matter how down anyone could be on Ben, his success is important to our future. I hope no one is rooting against him.
If this disrupts the thread, so be it. Our future has a lot to do with Rudy and what we do with him. It also has a lot to do with IT and what we do with him. Ben, Ray, and Mike need to have more experience and it would be wonderful if these three inexperienced guys turned out well.
I know why VF21 did that and it is not really a criticism of her but look at where we are going. Are we going to have a thread to track how often IT pees in a day?I understand it is difficult to separate out what the pg does from what the rest of the team does but let's try. Please? I hope Ray gets a little time. He could be interesting although he lacks the aggravation factor and won't be popular to argue about. I even am wondering if we should take a closer look at Malone. I am thrilled beyond belief that he is our coach but I think he is getting caught up in something that is making him say one thing and do another. He's a rookie. And speaking of rookies, no matter how down anyone could be on Ben, his success is important to our future. I hope no one is rooting against him.
If this disrupts the thread, so be it. Our future has a lot to do with Rudy and what we do with him. It also has a lot to do with IT and what we do with him. Ben, Ray, and Mike need to have more experience and it would be wonderful if these three inexperienced guys turned out well.
I guess the question is whether Rudy Gay is being used just right or not being used enough?
As of right now he is in elite company as far as efficiency goes (since he's been on the Kings). When he had to hold on to the ball more and be the facilitator in Toronto, he was in elite company as far as low efficiency goes.
So are we using Rudy to his maximum potential right now? He's never been better offensively in his career than he has this year with the Kings. Eventually if you go to the well too often, you end up with Toronto Rudy. I personally wouldn't mess with a good thing. It seems to me like Rudy Gay at 21pts on 53% shooting is being used to his maximum offensive potential right now.
The main problem lately is that IT is obviously pressing too hard with Cousins out and has caused a drastic drop off in his play. If we give the ball to Rudy more often, he'll more than likely have a drop off in his play as well.
As of right now he is in elite company as far as efficiency goes (since he's been on the Kings). When he had to hold on to the ball more and be the facilitator in Toronto, he was in elite company as far as low efficiency goes.
So are we using Rudy to his maximum potential right now? He's never been better offensively in his career than he has this year with the Kings. Eventually if you go to the well too often, you end up with Toronto Rudy. I personally wouldn't mess with a good thing. It seems to me like Rudy Gay at 21pts on 53% shooting is being used to his maximum offensive potential right now.
The main problem lately is that IT is obviously pressing too hard with Cousins out and has caused a drastic drop off in his play. If we give the ball to Rudy more often, he'll more than likely have a drop off in his play as well.
And the corollary to that, stats may not lie, but they don't always say what you think they're saying.
As much as IT has aggravated me, I'm curious to see what happens once Cousins returns into the mix. If IT continues taking 20+ shots a game, things are going to get ugly (uglier?), because taking shots away from Landry is different from taking them away from Cousins. That Gay has remained efficient without Cousins speaks to his star ability.
If IT returns to a "normal" usage, then perhaps this is all an exercise in futility, with the only positive outcome that both sides of the debate might acknowledge that IT isn't someone to build around/feature. What is normal? That's an interesting question.
If IT returns to a "normal" usage, then perhaps this is all an exercise in futility, with the only positive outcome that both sides of the debate might acknowledge that IT isn't someone to build around/feature. What is normal? That's an interesting question.
Chubbs et al,
Player B has twice as many assists. Player B has a better 3 point shot average and is a better free throw shooter. Neither of these players is "inferior" and that is the whole point.
People are already complaining about not having the right statistics. When faced with reality, there is still resistance.
Player B has twice as many assists. Player B has a better 3 point shot average and is a better free throw shooter. Neither of these players is "inferior" and that is the whole point.
People are already complaining about not having the right statistics. When faced with reality, there is still resistance.
Padrino
All-Star
there's a good reason that "people are already complaining about not having the right statistics." you left out some incredibly telling and important features of "Player A" and "Player B":
Player A: 6'8", 230 lbs, fullsized at his position, and a capable defender
Player B: 5'9", 185 lbs, undersized at the smallest position on the court, and an incompetent defender
Except that in the last two months (roughly how long Gay has been here, sorry, I didn't go back to Dec.) Player B is shooting .413 FG% and .319 from 3pt. You're comparing IT to Gay, right? Doesn't it make sense to compare IT's numbers during that time as well?
I'll listen to your argument a little more if you want to be a little more accurate with your comparison. If I have more time, I'll look back to December as well, but off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly when Gay joined the team. Point is, someone shooting .413 and .319 shouldn't be taking a majority of the shots. Ever. And that doesn't even take Player B's defense into consideration, which is probably the main reason for his inferiority.
Edit - Taking December into consideration:
.429 FG% and .352 from 3pt. I don't think it changes my argument, but it might affect yours. I also admit the potential for error, mostly because I did this somewhat quickly, but I doubt I made any mistakes.
I'll listen to your argument a little more if you want to be a little more accurate with your comparison. If I have more time, I'll look back to December as well, but off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly when Gay joined the team. Point is, someone shooting .413 and .319 shouldn't be taking a majority of the shots. Ever. And that doesn't even take Player B's defense into consideration, which is probably the main reason for his inferiority.
Edit - Taking December into consideration:
.429 FG% and .352 from 3pt. I don't think it changes my argument, but it might affect yours. I also admit the potential for error, mostly because I did this somewhat quickly, but I doubt I made any mistakes.
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Player B runs the show and has the ball in his hands quite a bit. His assists should be higher. When IT is going nuclear, can't miss a shot, scores on anyone, etc.... It is awesome. Thing is, he can't sustain that production and he continues to shoot when he's not producing instead of setting up guys.
Offense is only part of the game. The IT defense is an epic fail. He works hard at it much of the time but its a fail. Rudy Gay is not a defensive stalwart either but he could be considered average at least. Opposing backcourts routinely have career nights, and not all that blame can be laid at the SGs feet.
IT= nice 6th man....I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with that
Offense is only part of the game. The IT defense is an epic fail. He works hard at it much of the time but its a fail. Rudy Gay is not a defensive stalwart either but he could be considered average at least. Opposing backcourts routinely have career nights, and not all that blame can be laid at the SGs feet.
IT= nice 6th man....I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with that
Player b is statistically inferior.
Put it this way. If Player B had the same shooting percentage as player A the Kings would have won several more games this year.
Padrino
All-Star
at his best, isaiah thomas is still problematic as a starting PG for this kings team, no matter how flashy his raw statistics may be. at his worst, isaiah thomas is a diminutive chucker without a natural instinct for ball movement or a committed inclination towards defense. one rarely knows which version of isaiah thomas will show up in any given game. personally, i'd rather not have isaiah thomas at all, even at his best, and particularly in the starting lineup, because i see him as problematic despite his production...
if i can get valuable, better-fitting, defensively-oriented pieces in return for a trade package with IT at its center, i do so without blinking. it's been my mantra since rudy gay arrived in sacramento: having three ball dominant, 20 ppg scorers in the starting lineup, none of whom are elite-level defenders, simply will not work in the long term. it won't. history says it won't work, and no amount of shoving an isaiah thomas-shaped peg into the round hole of the kings' needs is going to make it work...
eventually shift IT back into a sixth man's role, and at a sixth man's salary? sure. i support that idea 100% if it comes to pass. but i'm also much more keen on using thomas as trade bait before the deadline because he's become our most valuable asset outside of demarcus cousins and rudy gay, and given the presence of those two scorers in the starting lineup, IT has also become our most superfluous asset. statistical sleight of hand alone will not make thomas a better fit as a starter. i'm hoping PDA works the phones hard in the coming weeks...
if i can get valuable, better-fitting, defensively-oriented pieces in return for a trade package with IT at its center, i do so without blinking. it's been my mantra since rudy gay arrived in sacramento: having three ball dominant, 20 ppg scorers in the starting lineup, none of whom are elite-level defenders, simply will not work in the long term. it won't. history says it won't work, and no amount of shoving an isaiah thomas-shaped peg into the round hole of the kings' needs is going to make it work...
eventually shift IT back into a sixth man's role, and at a sixth man's salary? sure. i support that idea 100% if it comes to pass. but i'm also much more keen on using thomas as trade bait before the deadline because he's become our most valuable asset outside of demarcus cousins and rudy gay, and given the presence of those two scorers in the starting lineup, IT has also become our most superfluous asset. statistical sleight of hand alone will not make thomas a better fit as a starter. i'm hoping PDA works the phones hard in the coming weeks...
Gliesian
Bench
I knew it was too easy to be just a game lol. I can understand the IT love. But to say he is not an inferior basketball player when compared to Rudy Gay is so mind boggling it hurts.
3 assists does not equal +2 boards and +10 fg % and like Padrino said, you left out defense, which is half of the game. I guess I am just upset this wasn't a real game b/c I wanted to play
3 assists does not equal +2 boards and +10 fg % and like Padrino said, you left out defense, which is half of the game. I guess I am just upset this wasn't a real game b/c I wanted to play
treach1976
Bench
Did you know that IT has shot 77 3pt'ers over the last 10 games? That's 10 more than Ben and MT combined over that same period. He's made 29.8% of those. That's also 17 more than Jimmer has shot all season.
His 3pt% is down because he is forcing them way to often, and missed 3pt'ers (especially of the pull-up/in-transition variety) often lead to long rebounds and fast breaks the other direction.
So, while article after article in the national media sings his praises, his team can't win (and not despite his efforts), and his anomalous mid-Nov to mid-Dec scoring efficiency is proving to be just that.... Once again, IT is a fantastic 6th man/game changer. He should be a rich man's JJ Barea, but a starting PG he is not...
His 3pt% is down because he is forcing them way to often, and missed 3pt'ers (especially of the pull-up/in-transition variety) often lead to long rebounds and fast breaks the other direction.
So, while article after article in the national media sings his praises, his team can't win (and not despite his efforts), and his anomalous mid-Nov to mid-Dec scoring efficiency is proving to be just that.... Once again, IT is a fantastic 6th man/game changer. He should be a rich man's JJ Barea, but a starting PG he is not...
Player A Player B
Points 26.3 20.0
Rebounds 6.8 2.8
Assists 6.4 6.3
TO 3.5 2.7
FG% .58 .444
3 pt % .369 .376
Ft % .76 .86
Player B is better passer and Player B has a better 3 point shot average and is a (much) better free throw shooter.
Only the assists make the difference between them.
Otherwise, neither of these players is "inferior" and that is the whole point.
lol
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That is an incredibly poorly thought out argument you made.
And, Boogie is the "one player who is the star of the team" and you happened to leave his stats out, for some reason. Gay is Boogie's wingman. The question is should the 3rd wheel be putting up the numbers player B here has. Many think no, especially when your player B is charged with getting players A,C, D, E, F, G ,H, shots. If you understood that argument and understood the context of successful 1-2 punches vs a 3rd wheel throughout the history of the league, you'd see your argument misses the point.
jalfa
Starter
IT really is the exact inverse of what you'd want the guy in his role to be, isn't he? ideally, you'd want a guy that puts up modest scoring numbers on a small number of preferably open shots that are set up for him, while being a strong defender, and running an offence without using up a ton of possessions. aka the diametrical opposite of what IT is. as many have pointed out before, not a bad player per se, just quite exactly not what this team needs from that position.
randymoss1881
Starter
What are Cousins stats since the gay trade
Padrino
All-Star
since rudy gay was inserted into the starting lineup on december 13th (and subtracting the game in which demarcus cousins was injured and played all of nine and a half minutes), DMC has averaged 23.7 pts (57% shooting), 13 rebs, and 3 asts per game. he has been markedly better than his season averages since rudy gay arrived, whereas isaiah thomas has been markedly worse than his season averages since rudy gay arrived. some of that has to do with the fact that the recent injuries to cousins and gay had forced isaiah thomas into a heavier-lifting role than he's suited for, but much of it is simply due to the fact that IT is often out for IT, and that's increasingly problematic at higher usage rates and higher volumes of shots...
cousins and gay have been developing a natural chemistry on the court, and it's quite obvious that they've made each other better. but it's also pretty easy to argue that thomas has made himself worse by attempting to muscle his little 5'9" frame into a supposed "big three" with cousins and gay. IT has been occasionally brilliant in the last few weeks, but just as often, if not moreso, he's been disruptive to whatever chemistry this team is attempting to build on the fly. it's never been an issue of talent with isaiah thomas. it's always been an issue of his napolean complex, and just how much he is willing to sacrifice for the sake of the team, ya know, as a PG. since arriving in sacramento, rudy gay is averaging 15 shots per game (in 34 mpg) and has been a model of efficiency. in that same span, isaiah thomas is averaging 17 shots per game (in 37 mpg), and has been a model of inefficiency. you tell me who the odd man out is in the kings' so-called "big three"...
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