[Grades] Grades v. Wolves 3/20/11

[Glenn]

He was ejected for the "multiple" shoves; Ridnour should have gone for the ridiculously pointless shove he gave if thats the way you're going to officiate games.

Might be alone in this thinking but a tech for a shove? it's a shove.... no one is hurt; sure it's pointless and a bit daft but this is sport; temper and passion are part of the game... well at least i thought they were.

Just separate the players and get on with it. Who does it serve having a star player sit out a game for a little push?

This is a bit different than soccer/football. These guys can hurt people. Also there is a recent history of ball players going into the stands and attacking fans. That will never happen on the pitch. I think in the past this zero tolerance policy would not have been in effect.

I think American sports could take a cue from other sports. It always amazes me that one man can control a game involving 30 guys bent on destroying each other like in rugby. We need three refs to watch 10. Perhaps it is because the rugby official is alway talking to the players and warning, threatening, cajoling, and guiding the game. It's cultural also, I suppose.

 

[Superman]

I wish everyone would get off DMC's case. I think I would have responded the same way if, out of nowhere, someone on the opposing team ran up and shoved me with two hands like Ridnour did. Definitely if I were still 20 years old. It would not have been the right thing to do, but it's what I would have done. And if his teammates ran up in my face putting their hands on me, they would have gotten the same treatment. There's really no two ways about it. Don't put your hands on me unless you want my hands on you. Plain and simple. If that makes me "not a very good guy," then fine. I'm not a very good guy. I'm also not about to get pushed around in the middle of a physical competition.

It's been noted already that not one of DMC's teammates were there in the time that he was shoved by THREE different Timberwolves players. That sucks, because we've seen him there for them in cases when they were involved in physical altercations.

We're making waaay to big a deal out of this. Based on the rules, he deserved to be ejected. I think Ridnour should have been ejected as well, since he started the whole thing out of nowhere. I don't think he's "not a very good guy" either, he just did something dumb. It sucks that only DMC paid for it.

With maturity, he won't escalate this type of altercation, but it's absolutely not his fault or his doing that he was involved in it. And as a 20 year old kid, when someone confronts you in the middle of a basketball game, you don't back down. That's normal. Doesn't make him an awful person. Get over it.

 

[rhythmless]

It's been noted already that not one of DMC's teammates were there in the time that he was shoved by THREE different Timberwolves players. That sucks, because we've seen him there for them in cases when they were involved in physical altercations.

We're making waaay to big a deal out of this. Based on the rules, he deserved to be ejected. I think Ridnour should have been ejected as well, since he started the whole thing out of nowhere. I don't think he's "not a very good guy" either, he just did something dumb. It sucks that only DMC paid for it.

With maturity, he won't escalate this type of altercation, but it's absolutely not his fault or his doing that he was involved in it. And as a 20 year old kid, when someone confronts you in the middle of a basketball game, you don't back down. That's normal. Doesn't make him an awful person. Get over it.

You don't get ejected for starting it. You don't get ejected for a retaliation push either. You get a T. Ridnour got a T because he pushed. Cousins got two Ts for multiple pushes, not an ejection. That is something you guys forget. The two Ts are automatic ejection. If 5 kings players pushed one time each, Cousins woudl still have been in. The officiating was SPOT ON. No punches, no elbows in the neck area. Shoves are Ts.

Yes, a Kings should have gotten in there. Cousins should have stayed back after he was pushed 6 feet away. That walk back was a scary situation and he probably would have gotten T'd up had he not shoved anyways because he confronted Ridnour. It would be different if Cousins and Ridnour were tangled and close and Cousins pushed him to separate, get room, frustrration, etc. But he was out of the immediate fray. He CAME BACK. That is a detail that is very telling.

 

[Superman]

You don't get ejected for starting it. You don't get ejected for a retaliation push either. You get a T. Ridnour got a T because he pushed. Cousins got two Ts for multiple pushes, not an ejection. That is something you guys forget. The two Ts are automatic ejection. If 5 kings players pushed one time each, Cousins woudl still have been in. The officiating was SPOT ON. No punches, no elbows in the neck area. Shoves are Ts.

A shove is not an automatic technical foul. We've all seen a player shove and not get called for a tech. As a matter of fact, neither Pekovic nor Webster got called for techs, and they both pushed Cousins. And also, a player can be ejected without ever getting a technical foul, if the refs see fit. They also could have called Cousins for one tech for the entire altercation.

But my argument was not that Cousins shouldn't have been ejected. It was that Ridnour should have been. As I said, he didn't have to be called for two technical fouls in order to be ejected. He started a fight, which is good enough. I've seen players get tossed for less. Instead, he starts the fight, and then gets to go shoot the technical free throw. That's bogus.

Yes, a Kings should have gotten in there. Cousins should have stayed back after he was pushed 6 feet away. That walk back was a scary situation and he probably would have gotten T'd up had he not shoved anyways because he confronted Ridnour. It would be different if Cousins and Ridnour were tangled and close and Cousins pushed him to separate, get room, frustrration, etc. But he was out of the immediate fray. He CAME BACK. That is a detail that is very telling.

This is where I feel it goes overboard. There was nothing scary about the walk back (unless you're Luke Ridnour and you're only now realizing that you've picked a fight with someone twice as big as you and there's no one standing in between you). He got pushed, he pushed back, and then two more Timberwolves got their touches in, with him responding in kind. He didn't push Ridnour anywhere near as hard as he got pushed, and he literally could have put him on the floor if he was trying to. I don't understand why people are acting like this was some thuggish response. That's what happens when someone pushes you: you push back. We should also not pretend that Cousins came running up like Stephen Jackson did in The Brawl.

The fact that none of his teammates stepped up is an entirely different issue, and one that helps me understand why we drafted Cousins in the first place. There's no doubt that the dude has heart, and that's a good thing. He does need to control himself better, but I don't think it's fair to try to classify this incident as Cousins being an awful person.

 

[LWP777]

I wish everyone would get off DMC's case. I think I would have responded the same way if, out of nowhere, someone on the opposing team ran up and shoved me with two hands like Ridnour did. Definitely if I were still 20 years old. It would not have been the right thing to do, but it's what I would have done. And if his teammates ran up in my face putting their hands on me, they would have gotten the same treatment. There's really no two ways about it. Don't put your hands on me unless you want my hands on you. Plain and simple. If that makes me "not a very good guy," then fine. I'm not a very good guy. I'm also not about to get pushed around in the middle of a physical competition.

It's been noted already that not one of DMC's teammates were there in the time that he was shoved by THREE different Timberwolves players. That sucks, because we've seen him there for them in cases when they were involved in physical altercations.

We're making waaay to big a deal out of this. Based on the rules, he deserved to be ejected. I think Ridnour should have been ejected as well, since he started the whole thing out of nowhere. I don't think he's "not a very good guy" either, he just did something dumb. It sucks that only DMC paid for it.

With maturity, he won't escalate this type of altercation, but it's absolutely not his fault or his doing that he was involved in it. And as a 20 year old kid, when someone confronts you in the middle of a basketball game, you don't back down. That's normal. Doesn't make him an awful person. Get over it.

Sorry, but I'm not going to get off his case. You are falling into the trap that a lot of people do with spoiled, immature athletes. The other thing that I wanted to point out that we haven't discussed is why Ridnour pushed him in the first place. It was kind of hard to see on the replays but I'm pretty sure DMC was setting a screen on Luke and was semi cheapshotting him in the process. I seriously doubt that he would push DMC for no reason. Do you really fail to see the difference between pushing 1 player and pushing 3 players? Ridnour was property penalized with the one T IMO. DMC pushed 3 guys and was basically looking to fight somebody.

Show me in the rules where is says Ridnour should have been ejected since you sound very educated on the rules of the game.

I know you really want to believe that DMC isn't a bad guy right now but the evidence is way against you. He was given a clean slate when he arrived here despite the reputation he had coming in. Since the season began:

He punched a teammate
He's been kicked out of practice (at least once that we know of)
Has been suspended and demoted out of the starting lineup
Made a fool of himself in the GSW game with the "choke" sign
He's gotten into it with one of the team's head trainers
He's been ejected from a game

I know there is more, but it's too early in the morning and I can't think of it all right now.

 

[Superman]

Sorry, but I'm not going to get off his case. You are falling into the trap that a lot of people do with spoiled, immature athletes. The other thing that I wanted to point out that we haven't discussed is why Ridnour pushed him in the first place. It was kind of hard to see on the replays but I'm pretty sure DMC was setting a screen on Luke and was semi cheapshotting him in the process. I seriously doubt that he would push DMC for no reason. Do you really fail to see the difference between pushing 1 player and pushing 3 players? Ridnour was property penalized with the one T IMO. DMC pushed 3 guys and was basically looking to fight somebody.

Of course there's a difference between pushing one player and pushing three players. There's also a difference between provoking an altercation and retaliating, and there's a difference between pushing someone for no reason and pushing back three different people because they pushed you first. Since we're talking about differences, let's acknowledge that.

And again, I am not arguing that DMC should not have been ejected. I'm simply saying that Ridnour, as the instigator, should have been booted as well. He -- out of nowhere -- shoved Cousins with full force, and two minutes later he's shooting the technical free throw. That's insane.

It's also laughable that you'd suggest he was looking to fight somebody. If that's the case, why didn't he fight anybody? He's this wild, out of control monster who is just off the leash, wanting nothing but to make heads roll... well that was his opportunity. And all he did was return what he was given, and not nearly as violently as the instigating offense. If he was looking to fight someone, Ridnour would have been leveled. Stop it.

Show me in the rules where is says Ridnour should have been ejected since you sound very educated on the rules of the game.

Show me in the rules where it says shoving someone is an automatic technical foul.

These things are not written in stone in the rule book. Throw a punch, that's an automatic suspension. Leave the bench during an altercation, automatic suspension. Get 16 technicals over the course of a season, automatic suspension. Other than that, it's not automatic that you receive a tech during an altercation. It's at the referees discretion. That thought can't be highlighted any better than to simply acknowledge the fact that Pekovic and Webster both pushed Cousins, and neither of them got technical fouls. If pushing was an automatic tech, wouldn't they have been T'd up?

I know you really want to believe that DMC isn't a bad guy right now but the evidence is way against you. He was given a clean slate when he arrived here despite the reputation he had coming in. Since the season began:

He punched a teammate
He's been kicked out of practice (at least once that we know of)
Has been suspended and demoted out of the starting lineup
Made a fool of himself in the GSW game with the "choke" sign
He's gotten into it with one of the team's head trainers
He's been ejected from a game

I know there is more, but it's too early in the morning and I can't think of it all right now.

All of that is true. None of that means he's a bad guy. He's done some stupid things, and there's no denying that. But if the world were judged by these lofty standards we sometimes like to judge others by, then everyone would be bad people. Get off your high horse.

 

[Glenn]

I don't think Cousins is a bad guy. I think he is a guy who has a lot of trouble controlling his anger. In fact, in this case, other people have said they would have done worse. For me to label him a bad guy is going to require a lot of team mates to speak out and say they think he is destructive to the team chemistry. I doubt it will happen but this is just an opinion. They didn't back him up or grab him to keep him out of further trouble. Not sure they had a chance but it didn't happen.

I used to have a horrible temper and it still shows a little. I don't look at myself as a bad guy. I am embarrassed at myself.

 

[Superman]

These things are not written in stone in the rule book. Throw a punch, that's an automatic suspension. Leave the bench during an altercation, automatic suspension. Get 16 technicals over the course of a season, automatic suspension. Other than that, it's not automatic that you receive a tech during an altercation. It's at the referees discretion.

By the way, since you asked...

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_4.html?nav=ArticleList

b. A technical foul is the penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct or violations by team members on the floor or seated on the bench. It may be assessed for illegal contact which occurs with an opponent before the ball becomes live.

c. A double foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal or technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

...

h. A punching foul is a punch by a player which makes contact with an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

a. An official may assess a technical foul, without prior warning, at any time. A technical foul(s) may be assessed to any player on the court or anyone seated on the bench for conduct which, in the opinion of an official, is detrimental to the game. A technical foul cannot be assessed for physical contact when the ball is alive.
EXCEPTION: Fighting fouls and/or taunting with physical contact.
b. A maximum of two technicals for unsportsmanlike acts may be assessed any player, coach or trainer. Any of these offenders may be ejected for committing only one unsportsmanlike act, and they must be ejected for committing two unsports-manlike acts.
d. A technical foul shall be assessed for unsportsmanlike tactics such as:
(1) Disrespectfully addressing an official
(2) Physically contacting an official
(3) Overt actions indicating resentment to a call
(4) Use of profanity
(5) A coach entering onto the court without permission of an official
(6) A deliberately-thrown elbow or any attempted physical act with no con-tact involved
(7) Taunting

...

l. A player, coach or trainer must be ejected for:
(1) A punching foul
(2) A fighting foul
(3) An elbow foul which makes contact above shoulder level
(4) An attempted punch which does not make contact
(5) Deliberately entering the stands other than as a continuance of play

The rules do not specifically address pushing or shoving, and there is no indication that it results in an automatic technical foul.

 

[LWP777]

I'm glad you posted the rules. You saved me the time of looking them up.

It states clearly that a technical foul shall be assessed if "unsportmanlike conduct" occurs on the floor. Most logical and reasonable people would agree that pushing an opponent the way DMC AND Ridnour did deserves a technical foul. The problem for DMC was that he did it 3 times to Ridnour's 1. You can only be assessed 2 technicals so DMC got 2 and Ridnour got 1. That is why the Wolves shot one technical FT (BTW, it could have been anybody shooting the T, just so happens that Luke was the best FT shooter on the floor at the time).

I just don't understand why you find it so hard to believe that Ridnour shouldn't have stayed in the game and shouldn't have been allowed the FT. Nowhere in the rule book does it say anything about "who started it." The other thing that you are ignoring is WHY Ridnour shoved DMC in the first place. It's because DMC was cheap-shotting him on the screen.

Get off my high horse? I just call them as I see them. DMC is NOT a good guy. He's young and he may mature, but I doubt it. Vlade Divac was a good guy. DMC is not. Do you see a difference?

 

[est.1999]

I'm sorry, but how is DMC not a good guy?

 

[PurpleHaze]

DeMarcus Cousins is truely a remarkably gifted basketball player at 20 years of age - BUT - he must work harder to get control of his emotions as a professional. I don't think it matters if some of us Kings/Royals fans think Cuz is a bad guy or a good guy - what matters is what league officials judge him to be out on the court in his first NBA season. If he's branded as a whining kid who makes silly faces all the time, or worse an out-of-control hothead thug - he'll pay dearly for the perception and for the reality. It's up to Cousins to realize HE must change his suspect behavior, come to grips with the immaturity, be professional in a professional mans league - or be negatively typecast.

 

[LWP777]

DeMarcus Cousins is truely a remarkably gifted basketball player at 20 years of age - BUT - he must work harder to get control of his emotions as a professional. I don't think it matters if some of us Kings/Royals fans think Cuz is a bad guy or a good guy - what matters is what league officials judge him to be out on the court in his first NBA season. If he's branded as a whining kid who makes silly faces all the time, or worse an out-of-control hothead thug - he'll pay dearly for the perception and for the reality. It's up to Cousins to realize HE must change his suspect behavior, come to grips with the immaturity, be professional in a professional mans league - or be negatively typecast.

Very well said.

 

[Glenn]

DeMarcus Cousins is truely a remarkably gifted basketball player at 20 years of age - BUT - he must work harder to get control of his emotions as a professional. I don't think it matters if some of us Kings/Royals fans think Cuz is a bad guy or a good guy - what matters is what league officials judge him to be out on the court in his first NBA season. If he's branded as a whining kid who makes silly faces all the time, or worse an out-of-control hothead thug - he'll pay dearly for the perception and for the reality. It's up to Cousins to realize HE must change his suspect behavior, come to grips with the immaturity, be professional in a professional mans league - or be negatively typecast.

Mr. Haze, I disagree with your pessimism. He has been branded this year but in the end, if they don't see who he really is, good or bad, they are incredibly daft. He needs to chat with them and joke with them and he is very good at that. I don't think he has any delusions about his behavior. If he thinks that everything he is doing is OK, he has pulled the wool over my eyes and that ain't easy.

 

[Superman]

I'm glad you posted the rules. You saved me the time of looking them up.

It states clearly that a technical foul shall be assessed if "unsportmanlike conduct" occurs on the floor. Most logical and reasonable people would agree that pushing an opponent the way DMC AND Ridnour did deserves a technical foul. The problem for DMC was that he did it 3 times to Ridnour's 1. You can only be assessed 2 technicals so DMC got 2 and Ridnour got 1. That is why the Wolves shot one technical FT (BTW, it could have been anybody shooting the T, just so happens that Luke was the best FT shooter on the floor at the time).

I just don't understand why you find it so hard to believe that Ridnour shouldn't have stayed in the game and shouldn't have been allowed the FT. Nowhere in the rule book does it say anything about "who started it." The other thing that you are ignoring is WHY Ridnour shoved DMC in the first place. It's because DMC was cheap-shotting him on the screen.

If Ridnour felt he was getting cheap-shotted, that's not justification for shoving another player.

And, as I said, it is at the officials discretion whether or not to give technical fouls in situations like this. They could have given Cousins one technical foul for the entire incident if that's how they wanted to handle it. Or they could have tossed Ridnour and Cousins if they saw fit. It's at their discretion, as the rules do not specifically mandate how to handle a shoving incident. And again, the fact that neither Pekovic nor Webster were whistled is evidence that pushing/shoving is NOT an automatic technical foul.

When it comes to Ridnour shooting the technical free throw, my point is simply that it's unfair that he provoked the entire incident and still got to shoot the free throw.

Get off my high horse? I just call them as I see them. DMC is NOT a good guy. He's young and he may mature, but I doubt it. Vlade Divac was a good guy. DMC is not. Do you see a difference?

Yes, there's a difference between Vlade and Cousins. I don't see how that is proof that Cousins is not a good guy. I think you're judging him by a much higher standard than anyone should be judged by. And I think that is something that happens far too often these days, not just with sports fans, but with society in general. People make mistakes (that includes you, me, and everyone else). It just so happens that the TMZ generation gets to witness the mistakes of famous people and so feel entitled to judge them from afar. It's unfair, and your insistence that because Cousins is admittedly immature and has some growing to do that he's not a good guy is beyond the pale.

 

[Glenn]

Yes, there's a difference between Vlade and Cousins. I don't see how that is proof that Cousins is not a good guy. I think you're judging him by a much higher standard than anyone should be judged by. And I think that is something that happens far too often these days, not just with sports fans, but with society in general. People make mistakes (that includes you, me, and everyone else). It just so happens that the TMZ generation gets to witness the mistakes of famous people and so feel entitled to judge them from afar. It's unfair, and your insistence that because Cousins is admittedly immature and has some growing to do that he's not a good guy is beyond the pale.

Heavy and true.

 

[UK_King]

This is a bit different than soccer/football. These guys can hurt people. Also there is a recent history of ball players going into the stands and attacking fans. That will never happen on the pitch. I think in the past this zero tolerance policy would not have been in effect.

I think American sports could take a cue from other sports. It always amazes me that one man can control a game involving 30 guys bent on destroying each other like in rugby. We need three refs to watch 10. Perhaps it is because the rugby official is alway talking to the players and warning, threatening, cajoling, and guiding the game. It's cultural also, I suppose.

Well there was Eric Cantona who attacked a fan

but quite honestly i wasn't even thinking of soccer when i said that; a shove is a shove; sure these guys are bigger (taller) than your average sportsmen but unless they are shoving small children i can't imagine there being too much damage caused. Especially when it's two 6'11 guys going at it.

 

[LWP777]

If Ridnour felt he was getting cheap-shotted, that's not justification for shoving another player.

And, as I said, it is at the officials discretion whether or not to give technical fouls in situations like this. They could have given Cousins one technical foul for the entire incident if that's how they wanted to handle it. Or they could have tossed Ridnour and Cousins if they saw fit. It's at their discretion, as the rules do not specifically mandate how to handle a shoving incident. And again, the fact that neither Pekovic nor Webster were whistled is evidence that pushing/shoving is NOT an automatic technical foul.

When it comes to Ridnour shooting the technical free throw, my point is simply that it's unfair that he provoked the entire incident and still got to shoot the free throw.



Yes, there's a difference between Vlade and Cousins. I don't see how that is proof that Cousins is not a good guy. I think you're judging him by a much higher standard than anyone should be judged by. And I think that is something that happens far too often these days, not just with sports fans, but with society in general. People make mistakes (that includes you, me, and everyone else). It just so happens that the TMZ generation gets to witness the mistakes of famous people and so feel entitled to judge them from afar. It's unfair, and your insistence that because Cousins is admittedly immature and has some growing to do that he's not a good guy is beyond the pale.

It's amazing how much you contradict yourself in this post. First of all you say that "If Ridnour felt he was getting cheap-shotted, that's not justification for shoving another player." Well then how is it okay that DMC pushed Ridnour back after he was pushed by Ridnour?

"it is at the officials discretion whether or not to give technical fouls in situations like this." No actually, it's not at their discretion. Their job is to enforce the rules. When an unsportmanlike act is committed, their job is to call technical fouls. That is exactly what they did.

"When it comes to Ridnour shooting the technical free throw, my point is simply that it's unfair that he provoked the entire incident and still got to shoot the free throw."
Boo hoo. Cry me a river. The rules are the rules. He got one T, not 2. He's allowed to shoot the FT.

"Yes, there's a difference between Vlade and Cousins. I don't see how that is proof that Cousins is not a good guy. I think you're judging him by a much higher standard than anyone should be judged by. And I think that is something that happens far too often these days, not just with sports fans, but with society in general. People make mistakes (that includes you, me, and everyone else). It just so happens that the TMZ generation gets to witness the mistakes of famous people and so feel entitled to judge them from afar. It's unfair, and your insistence that because Cousins is admittedly immature and has some growing to do that he's not a good guy is beyond the pale"

You're joking here, right? It's actually the complete opposite. We live in a society where we don't judge anybody. If you judge people, then your usually labeled a racist, bigot, or any number of other things. We let people get away with WAY too much. He's just NOT a good guy right now. Why do you insist on defending him? He's punched a teammate for christ sake. I'm not saying I hate the kid or anything. I hope he gets it together some day.

 

[Superman]

It's amazing how much you contradict yourself in this post. First of all you say that "If Ridnour felt he was getting cheap-shotted, that's not justification for shoving another player." Well then how is it okay that DMC pushed Ridnour back after he was pushed by Ridnour?

Holy monkey. When did I say it was okay for DMC to push him back?

"it is at the officials discretion whether or not to give technical fouls in situations like this." No actually, it's not at their discretion. Their job is to enforce the rules. When an unsportmanlike act is committed, their job is to call technical fouls. That is exactly what they did.

Why are you trying to pretend that the refs are obligated to call a technical foul if one player pushes another? Isn't it obvious that they are not? If they were, would not Pekovic and Webster have been T'd up?

"When it comes to Ridnour shooting the technical free throw, my point is simply that it's unfair that he provoked the entire incident and still got to shoot the free throw."
Boo hoo. Cry me a river. The rules are the rules. He got one T, not 2. He's allowed to shoot the FT.

And it's BS.

You're joking here, right? It's actually the complete opposite. We live in a society where we don't judge anybody. If you judge people, then your usually labeled a racist, bigot, or any number of other things. We let people get away with WAY too much. He's just NOT a good guy right now. Why do you insist on defending him? He's punched a teammate for christ sake. I'm not saying I hate the kid or anything. I hope he gets it together some day.

NEWSFLASH: Sometimes teammates get into altercations. Cousins wasn't the first, and won't be the last.

His punching a teammate is your trump card? So that enables you to determine that a person is inherently "not good," even though you don't know him and have never had any meaningful interaction with him?

Here's my trump card: http://articles.centralkynews.com/2010-08-03/news/24938088_1_cheerleading-camp-thrill-truck-drives

"We" aren't letting anybody get away with anything. You have no right to judge an individual that you do not know. I am not calling you a racist or a bigot, or anything else, other than being overly judgmental.