Semi
Bench
Did they change the rules this season? Do the first 8 games of the season not count anymore?
[Grades] Grades v. Warriors 12/28/2015
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
They certainly don't count when reacting to wins and losses with the current team and making broad proclamations about how the team sin't coming around, and is a bad team and just etc.
Its a .500 team, playing like a .500 team.
The 1-7 is not relevant except for post season hopes. the team hasn't played like a 1-7 team since, well, they were 1-7.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
My question is what happened to the Karl-Cousins system that was producing all those triple doubles toward the end last year? Chalk it up to extended garbage time? Offensively at least, it seemed like things wouldn't be this off, no?
Well, for one thing, Karl basically had to coach those thirty games without a point guard, no disrespect to Ray McCallum, so he more or less had no choice but to run the offense through Cousins. Your guess as to why he decided that he couldn't do that anymore is as good as mine. For another thing, he appears to have, on the low, gotten Divac to get rid of every big man on the roster that he couldn't justify not playing, except for Cousins, at least partially as a way of justifying his offense.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Wasn't the same system. Even said at the time he didn't have time top put in his own stuff and so was still using some of Malone's old sets.
This offseason he swapped out the entire coaching staff sans Corliss and notably brought in some idiot gimmick guru with a "dribble drive offense". We aren't running the same system at all.
John Galt
Starter
Wow not a very honest argument - if you read my post you will see I count myself among those who were overhyped on this roster. I don't claim to have known. I was psyched about the roster upgrades. But now I think a lot of our sub-500 record is just about coming back down to earth about how good the roster really truly is.
As for the Belinelli think... "you have documentation on that" lol come on man you are punching at air. It is only my imagination I don't claim it to be otherwise. I just think - much like with Beno - when some guy leaves the Spurs to join your team... well they are leaving the Spurs for a reason. We did not particularly over-bid for Marco. We just sort of got him. Means Pop 'just sort of let him get away'. And he isn't making any clumsy passes or excessive pump fakes or desperate bricks for San Antonio now, and I guess I don't feel like I need documentation to come away with the conclusion that the Spurs knew he wan't all that good.
Landrys been injured all year and he'd certainly help our defense.. JTs been getting 0 after 0 minutes at GS.. Those 2 bigs sucked.
Same gimmick that coach Cal runs?
You're underestimating how difficult it is to build around this roster...let alone Cousins. How do you build around a ball dominant C who's historically had a low FG% with a high usage, can't play above the rim, struggles in PnR, and can shoot?
The perfect roster you'd need around him is a shooting PG, 3&D SG, 3&D SF, and a stretch 4. Basically all shooters if you decide you don't want to take advantage of Cousins' shooting ability.
Collison-McLemore-Casspi-Acy-Cousins? Could be something interesting Karl should try out, but it's hard when you have Rondo and Gay as your 2nd/3rd best players. They don't compliment Cuz well at all on either side of the floor. This is one of Karl's challenges.
Putting Cuz low on the block doesn't always work. He was shutdown by Meyers Leonard when we tried to do it in crunch time. He got frustrated and took an ill-advised pull up 3 and ugly mid range J. You could tell Karl was immediately unhappy with his shot selection and called a TO. We need to really embrace Cuz's shooting ability. He's not a great post player.
Blob
Starter
Greeting Friends 
Enough pleasantries lets get down into the mire and mud of this mockery of a team and try not to get too filthy.
It should be a little bit disconcerting the brilliance of Omri's first half never happens if Cousins is not saddled with foul trouble. It was only him being stuck to the bench that allowed Omri to shine like a crazy diamond.
So not only do we have a franchise player that does not make teammates better there is evidence he inhibits them from shining often like a crazy diamond.
There is no reason Ben should not be averaging 10 PPG. Or get 1 shot halfway through the 3rd quarter vs Blazers when Boogie is approaching 20 shots. Ben, the system, Rondo and Boogie are all culpable but I can't help but think a lot of these issues would resolve themselves if we had a less selfish and bullheaded "superstar" who "hates to lose more than anything or anyone"
Cousins TS% is 51.6%
Kings TS% is 53.6%
This is an estimate but since Boogie has a usage of 33% or he ends every 1 out 3 possessions with a shot or TO we could say:
51.6 (.333) + x (.666) = 53.6
Solving for x
x = 54.7% TS
So Boogie is 51.6% TS while non Boogie shooters are 54.7% TS.
Four points are relevant:
(1) A lot of Boogie's successful conversions are sweet passes from Rondo at the right spot at right time with credit to Boogie for making himself available to catch and finish.
(2) A lot of non Boogie scorers are open due to the attention Boogie gets.
(3) When Boogie tries to create on his own his success rate plummets.
(4) He is shooting a 33% (2.6 - 7.9 FGA) FGs per game on shots taken after 2-6 seconds per NBA.com
The first point grants partial 50/50 credit to Boogie. The second point grants full credit to Boogie. The third and fourth point are similar and bear no credit.
The fourth point is also particularly relevant because every time Boogie takes 2 seconds or more he is trying to create his own shot without post moves or lift when he drives to the hole. The main issue is the freedom of responsibility granted to Boogie through Karl's system. It is freedom incompatible with emotional makeup and current skill.
Boogie tries to answer force with force. His main strategy is bulldoze the defender. His second strategy is beg for the call. This is not a complete arsenal of strategies.
Sometimes you have to answer force with resistance to force, that is, going away from force. The counter move to an opponent designed to stop you is to sometimes go away from resistance and find Omri and Ben and Rudy even if they miss.
This is the nuance to Boogie's game that is conspicuously lacking. When you watch guys like LeBron and Durant it is conspicuously not lacking because of basketball IQ and versatility versus mindless brute force and singular scoring mindset.
There is compelling quantitative data and eye ball evidence to suggest (1) Boogie is reliant on Rondo for his TS% (2) Boogie is still incapable of producing above team average TS% despite this reliance (3) teammates are being limited by a system that grants immense freedom to Boogie to shoot or pass. His preponderance of choices reflect an imbalance that cater to the opponent and his FGA total and to the detriment of the team.
The pace is up. The touches are up. And the system leaves decisions to player not the coach. And Boogie has a PG who looks for him more than Tyreke or Isiaah ever did. The cumulative effect is Boogie has ball more often. He doesn't make the right play often enough, and by right I mean unselfish and strategic in terms of luring the defense and serving as a decoy.
The result is a team and set of teammates not realizing their potential excluding the rare instances when fouls send him to the bench and Omri does Curry better than Curry does Curry.
As aside, Cousins has done little to smooth transition of Willie in terms of getting him easy baskets or being role model big man to admire. And why should he when there are so many refs to curse out and so little time.
Bring on the 76ers!!!
(P.S. Gulp.)
Enough pleasantries lets get down into the mire and mud of this mockery of a team and try not to get too filthy.
It should be a little bit disconcerting the brilliance of Omri's first half never happens if Cousins is not saddled with foul trouble. It was only him being stuck to the bench that allowed Omri to shine like a crazy diamond.
So not only do we have a franchise player that does not make teammates better there is evidence he inhibits them from shining often like a crazy diamond.
There is no reason Ben should not be averaging 10 PPG. Or get 1 shot halfway through the 3rd quarter vs Blazers when Boogie is approaching 20 shots. Ben, the system, Rondo and Boogie are all culpable but I can't help but think a lot of these issues would resolve themselves if we had a less selfish and bullheaded "superstar" who "hates to lose more than anything or anyone"
Cousins TS% is 51.6%
Kings TS% is 53.6%
This is an estimate but since Boogie has a usage of 33% or he ends every 1 out 3 possessions with a shot or TO we could say:
51.6 (.333) + x (.666) = 53.6
Solving for x
x = 54.7% TS
So Boogie is 51.6% TS while non Boogie shooters are 54.7% TS.
Four points are relevant:
(1) A lot of Boogie's successful conversions are sweet passes from Rondo at the right spot at right time with credit to Boogie for making himself available to catch and finish.
(2) A lot of non Boogie scorers are open due to the attention Boogie gets.
(3) When Boogie tries to create on his own his success rate plummets.
(4) He is shooting a 33% (2.6 - 7.9 FGA) FGs per game on shots taken after 2-6 seconds per NBA.com
The first point grants partial 50/50 credit to Boogie. The second point grants full credit to Boogie. The third and fourth point are similar and bear no credit.
The fourth point is also particularly relevant because every time Boogie takes 2 seconds or more he is trying to create his own shot without post moves or lift when he drives to the hole. The main issue is the freedom of responsibility granted to Boogie through Karl's system. It is freedom incompatible with emotional makeup and current skill.
Boogie tries to answer force with force. His main strategy is bulldoze the defender. His second strategy is beg for the call. This is not a complete arsenal of strategies.
Sometimes you have to answer force with resistance to force, that is, going away from force. The counter move to an opponent designed to stop you is to sometimes go away from resistance and find Omri and Ben and Rudy even if they miss.
This is the nuance to Boogie's game that is conspicuously lacking. When you watch guys like LeBron and Durant it is conspicuously not lacking because of basketball IQ and versatility versus mindless brute force and singular scoring mindset.
There is compelling quantitative data and eye ball evidence to suggest (1) Boogie is reliant on Rondo for his TS% (2) Boogie is still incapable of producing above team average TS% despite this reliance (3) teammates are being limited by a system that grants immense freedom to Boogie to shoot or pass. His preponderance of choices reflect an imbalance that cater to the opponent and his FGA total and to the detriment of the team.
The pace is up. The touches are up. And the system leaves decisions to player not the coach. And Boogie has a PG who looks for him more than Tyreke or Isiaah ever did. The cumulative effect is Boogie has ball more often. He doesn't make the right play often enough, and by right I mean unselfish and strategic in terms of luring the defense and serving as a decoy.
The result is a team and set of teammates not realizing their potential excluding the rare instances when fouls send him to the bench and Omri does Curry better than Curry does Curry.
As aside, Cousins has done little to smooth transition of Willie in terms of getting him easy baskets or being role model big man to admire. And why should he when there are so many refs to curse out and so little time.
Bring on the 76ers!!!
(P.S. Gulp.)
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Ever think that he was just trying to get younger?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Thompson's per/36 numbers hold up reasonably well. That he can't get into Golden State's rotation is hardly proof that he can't play. I believe that Thompson was a serviceable big when he left here, and still is, but he'll never get the opportunity to prove it in Oakland.
You'll get little argument from me about Landry, except to mention that my point in bringing him up was to demonstrate that he is a frontcourt player, who can (apparently) still play, but has no outside game, and would therefore be worthless to Karl, and another guy who he'd have to explain not playing. I mean, let's not act like I'm making this up, or that it's even new: Karl has a proven track record of getting his bosses to get rid of guys who can't play from outside in.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Oddly enough, I don't think anyone on the team is going to be caught saying "I can't stand Cousins, get him out" nor is virtually any player in any professional league.
Cousins effort on defense is abysmal this year.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Dude...I don't even know how to respond to that.
His defense in general has been excellent. The numbers generally support that conclusion. He has been far and away our biggest impact defender, again.
His DRPM this season is 3.12, 16th in the NBA (last year he was 4th). Hassan Whiteside is 15th with a 3.13. Mark Gasol is 18th with a 2.89.
His defensive on/off is -8.7. That's a huge number, again, as it always is with him. That's with his replacements being guys (Koufos, WCS) generally thought of as good defenders. Anthony Davis is a -6.6. Dwight Howard a -3.8. Marc Gasol -0.8. Whiteside's team actually gets better defensively when he leaves. teh only guy my quick spotchecks found above Boogie's number was Draymond Green at -11.6.
Do you know what Cousins Defensive Rim Protection % is? 43.2% That's even better than last year, and its a flat elite number. Gobert is of course ouot by himself as the king at 35.3%, but Andrew Bogut? 43.4% Ezili 44.2% Duncan 45.5%. Towns 45.5. Jordan 45.7. Favors 47.6 and jsut etc. etc. 43.2% is one of the best marks in the league.
I don't know where some of these nonsense ideas go to fester when they are off this board, but they badly need some sunlight shined in on them. Cousins has again been one of the very best defensive big men in the league. I don't know what people are watching out there, except that I do know they get all worked up and upset at the wrong things. When you are watching a big man defend watch how Cousins moves back there. Watch how he shows just enough to deter people, how he takes angles, how he's learned to go vertical, the menace of his charge drawing, the quick hands which are beginning to show up again now. He once again IS our defense. And yet somewhere out there some fool who really doesn't know how to watch the game is running around claiming he's not giving an effort? My lord people. Come on.
Boogie_Fever
G-League
Even George Karl says his defense is phenomenal.
I think everyone is all coming around to saying the same thing: something has to change.
Is it another coaching change?
Revamp the roster again around Cuz?
Trade Cuz?
Keep the course and make a minor deal?
Personally, I'm for option 4. We've basically never been at full strength this whole season. There have been very few games where we flat out just deserved to lose and got outplayed from the get-go. Problem is, we've been rebuilding for 10 years and we want instant results in a team that's in its first season together.
Don't get me wrong, there are certainly roster construction issues that need to be solved. But I'd much rather make a real attempt with this group and coach than blow everything up AGAIN and start with a new coach AGAIN.
Is it another coaching change?
Revamp the roster again around Cuz?
Trade Cuz?
Keep the course and make a minor deal?
Personally, I'm for option 4. We've basically never been at full strength this whole season. There have been very few games where we flat out just deserved to lose and got outplayed from the get-go. Problem is, we've been rebuilding for 10 years and we want instant results in a team that's in its first season together.
Don't get me wrong, there are certainly roster construction issues that need to be solved. But I'd much rather make a real attempt with this group and coach than blow everything up AGAIN and start with a new coach AGAIN.
Livinthedream
All-Star
The relationship between Cuz and Karl is untenable. Cuz is not emotionally stable enough to stay the course for the season. I'm not picking at Cuz, just stating the truth and the reason that something has to change. Despite what some are saying, Cousins is the one trying to make the adjustment, which is what is causing his angst. Karl is not budging at all.
The way I look at it is that either Karl or Cousins has to go. Getting rid of Karl is primarily a financial concern for the team. A little bit of a continuity issue, but we haven't been stable in so many years, what's one more coaching change. However, getting rid of Cousins could be franchise altering one way or another. Probably in a negative way. It would demonstrate to all the future draft picks that no matter how good you are, Sacramento is not able to nurture your career. While Cousins is saying he wants to be in Sac, you have to keep him. Keeping Cousins and trying to build around a serious talent, whether the franchise fails at it or not, is more important than people realize in regards to the perception of the franchise. We have to start doing things the right way.
If Vlade is going to be our GM, he needs to get his own coach in here ASAP. We're not going anywhere with Karl messing around with this roster and killing everyone's confidence. Just about everyone on the team is getting worse under Karl. A player or two having a bad year happens. But the whole roster has fallen off. Have to make a move before Cousins really does demand a trade.
KingsFanGER
Starter
So far the speculations about Karl's and Boogies relationship are caused mainly by the things the media wrote in the offseason. It might be true, that the relationship is broken. But chances are there, that Karl and DMC were able to sort things out. We certainly know, that they are communicating.
Cousins always demanded stability. He was tired of all the drama and sacked coaches. We are still in the middle of an attempt to break our historical playoff draught.
I'm not sure, that Cousins would welcome the firing of Karl right in the middle of the season. He could view it as just another sign, that this organisation will never be able to provide him with a stable environment.
Livinthedream
All-Star
I was speaking of the style Karl wants to play vs. the style Cousins is best at as untenable. I realize the way I worded it did not communicate that clearly.
Cousins IS trying to make it work. But I don't think that Karl is trying to make any adjustments. And from what I read, the majority of the players don't like the style either. The team being inconsistent and not being able to win a game against short handed teams when those wins puts you in the playoff picture is a sure sign that getting into the playoffs may always just be just a step out of reach for this squad.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Maybe. I'm not a fan of changing coaches in the middle of the season, because a new system needs time to work properly. The time to change coaches was there in the offseason. Vlade decided to move on with Karl. When he pulls the plug now, he better has communicated with every player, or this thing is going to blow up. We wreck another possible playoff run with a premature firing of a coach and DMC's camp will react accordingly.
The whole questions about the playstyle, that doesn't fit DMC strengths are out there. But there is only one person, who truly matters in that regard. And given DMC's mindset I'm not sure, that he views this kind of playstyle as untenable.
Given our offensive production I'm one of the few, who doesn't think the offensive playstyle is as cancerous as some people think. I don't like watching it. But that's a different story.
lwc
Starter
If they are going to suspend him, I hope they do it for the game against the Sixers tonight and not wait until they play another team.
All is nice and well, but we concede a few easy baskets every game because Boogie is busy complaining calls instead of getting back on D. Get rid of that and a few close games go the other way. We could have been 8th by now if not for this "feature" of Boogie's defense.
fansinceday1
Starter
Barkley who can't stand cousins said it best yesterday.
He said cousins need to take responsibility for his shortcomings but that he is getting a raw deal because he went to such a "Mickey mouse" organization. If he had gone somewhere else he would not be one of the best talents in the NBA, he would be one of the best players in the league.
Translation: the Kings can't nurture talent worth an S. Even when cousins leaves, this franchise will still be the joke everyone knows it is. Thanks Vivek.
He said cousins need to take responsibility for his shortcomings but that he is getting a raw deal because he went to such a "Mickey mouse" organization. If he had gone somewhere else he would not be one of the best talents in the NBA, he would be one of the best players in the league.
Translation: the Kings can't nurture talent worth an S. Even when cousins leaves, this franchise will still be the joke everyone knows it is. Thanks Vivek.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
After one of the more recent losses, Karl said to James Ham, "They just don't listen." Doesn't sound to me like there is a buy-in. In fact, this theme sounds awfully familiar.
I'll add another option to the list of possible outcomes: BOTH Cousins and Karl end up somewhere else.
I'll add another option to the list of possible outcomes: BOTH Cousins and Karl end up somewhere else.
For what it's worth, I've seen a lot less Cousins on the perimeter and a lot more Cousins post ups in the last 5-6 games. Hasn't always worked out well though. Our offense isn't the same as what it was early in the season. Cousins is rarely dribbling the ball in to create from the 3 point line in a half court set where we saw quite a bit of that early in the season.
When Cousins has been back his defense has been very good. The issue is more that he's had games where he didn't get back much. Certainly doesn't help that the team is turning the ball over so much. Defensive on/off is a little skewed on our team when our bench is basically a zero defense lineup save for Koufos. Collison has been terrible, Marco ... enough said.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No, defensive on/off is NOT skewed for precisely that reason -- Collison doesn't come in for Cousins. Kosta Koufos does, or Willie Cauley Stein did. In other words two of our best defenders, and Cousins makes them look like nothing with his impact.
Also, the stats I gave you were for all games combined. All games. Including ones where he "didn't get back". Hence the above are his stats EVEN WITH the not getting back. Its irrational in the extreme to elevate the wart that keeps him form Draymond Green numbers all the way up into Cousins is anything but atop defensive big man.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Not sure we do though.
I mean, Rondo is a huge assist guy, but he's also always been a guy who's going to take chances and notch some TOs. Cuz of course is naturally TO prone, his numbers are much more reasonable this year now that he has an actual PG, but still, he makes them. Rudy is not a great ballhandler. Omri isn't a great ballhandler. Ben is a lousy ballhandler. And I think as a bit of a tipper, the pace PACE stuff has caused a major and unwelcome change in Collison's game, from in control halfcourt PG who pulled up for little elbow jumpers, to wild 6th man gotta push push PUSH!!! race to the rim at all times, even 1 on 3, fly around out of control guy. I of course agree that Rondo alone gives us more ballhandling than we had last year, but its not safe handling, its aggressive trying to create handling.
FaStRmAn
Starter
Are we also essentially in the playoffs too? I mean we are hovering around that 8th spot...
I don't know if we can assume anything about this team. I truly do believe they can turn it around. They Have a good core. They need WCS to come back and they need to trade for a functional 2 guard. I believe Ben has proven he is not an NBA caliber guard. I believe if he doesn't markedly improve he will be gone next season. Belinelli is a poor defender and his shooting has been spotty to say the least....
jalfa
Starter
part of the expectation of course was that we added some solid vets in the backcourt that could handle the ball in Rondo, Bellinelli and really DC, too, after he was gone so long. what I absolutely didn't expect was that we'd go from a bit below league average to one of the worst teams in the league. I mean, we lost McCallum and Stauskas and added those guys. how the hell did we get so much worse?
edit: and yeah, I suspect it's the system, too.
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