[Grades] Grades v. Thunder 3/28/2014

[Kingster]

Don't you think it's curious that Rudy Gay has two absolutely horrible games without Thomas in the game? Whether he was playing with or without McCallum, he was horrible. The first thing it tells you is that any idea that Gay can play point forward is wrong. That's absolutely certain. The second thing it shows you is that Gay has got to have a good penetrating point guard to play with. You can have your defensive point guard - a more veteran McCallum type - but he's not compatible with Rudy Gay. Rudy Gay can' break pressure on a nightly basis. You need a pg who can break pressure and cause the defense to collapse. See IT for that. Without that kind of pg, Gay is mediocre or even terrible as we've seen the last two games.

The fallacy of the argument that IT isn't sufficient for this team at pg, that you really need a defensive pg, is that the defensive pg doesn't typically have the offensive ability to break down the opposing defense on a nightly basis (unless you're talking about an All Star). He'll play defense better than McCallum, but a Patrick Beverly or a Chalmers type isn't going to be able to break down the defense. And his marginal improvement in defense isn't going to make up for the absence of offense that can't function because there is no other individual that can break pressure. Chalmers may be sufficient with LBJ and Wade there to break pressure, but he certainly isn't sufficient on this team with Rudy Gay and McLemore.

 

[Siranthony]

Don't you think it's curious that Rudy Gay has two absolutely horrible games without Thomas in the game? Whether he was playing with or without McCallum, he was horrible. The first thing it tells you is that any idea that Gay can play point forward is wrong. That's absolutely certain. The second thing it shows you is that Gay has got to have a good penetrating point guard to play with. You can have your defensive point guard - a more veteran McCallum type - but he's not compatible with Rudy Gay. Rudy Gay can' break pressure on a nightly basis. You need a pg who can break pressure and cause the defense to collapse. See IT for that. Without that kind of pg, Gay is mediocre or even terrible as we've seen the last two games.

The fallacy of the argument that IT isn't sufficient for this team at pg, that you really need a defensive pg, is that the defensive pg doesn't typically have the offensive ability to break down the opposing defense on a nightly basis (unless you're talking about an All Star). He'll play defense better than McCallum, but a Patrick Beverly or a Chalmers type isn't going to be able to break down the defense. And his marginal improvement in defense isn't going to make up for the absence of offense that can't function because there is no other individual that can break pressure. Chalmers may be sufficient with LBJ and Wade there to break pressure, but he certainly isn't sufficient on this team with Rudy Gay and McLemore.

I agree. If we want a defensive PG then we will need a SG who is an elite scorer. IT is an elite scorer. Right now we don't have that. Until we get that, why complain.

I think we can succeed with IT. The team is becoming better at defending. We get more help at guard and a shot blocking PF, we are fighting for a playoff spot next year.

 

[pshn80]

Not willing to stipulate that McCallum not being good enough to start proves that Thomas should. Neither one of them should start; we need an actual point guard in the starting lineup, not a rookie still learning to play the position at the pro level, and not an undersized shooting guard.

I am willing to stipulate that and you should, too, unless you want to start Gay or Outlaw or Williams or Cousins at PG. I suppose you were thinking of some other alternative. I'd be interested.

 

[mac]

I agree. If we want a defensive PG then we will need a SG who is an elite scorer. IT is an elite scorer. Right now we don't have that. Until we get that, why complain.

I think we can succeed with IT. The team is becoming better at defending. We get more help at guard and a shot blocking PF, we are fighting for a playoff spot next year.

Yup because every winning team in the league has 3 guys putting up 20 points right? Or are you saying we get rid of Gay and build around IT and Cousins as starters. Oh wait, we've done that for 3 years and haven't even come close to 35 wins! Pray tell how exactly we add guard depth and a shot blocking PF, while keeping Gay and re-signing IT. Please, enlighten me.

 

[Siranthony]

Yup because every winning team in the league has 3 guys putting up 20 points right? Or are you saying we get rid of Gay and build around IT and Cousins as starters. Oh wait, we've done that for 3 years and haven't even come close to 35 wins! Pray tell how exactly we add guard depth and a shot blocking PF, while keeping Gay and re-signing IT. Please, enlighten me.

Draft.

First round draft either Exum, Smart or Lavine. Second round draft someone like Alec Brown.

Then there are other possible trades. I'm sure you guys could think of a couple players to bring in.

Of course if Gay where to restructure his contract, that would help.

Just some ideas I'm throwing out there.

 

[Kingster]

I agree. If we want a defensive PG then we will need a SG who is an elite scorer. IT is an elite scorer. Right now we don't have that. Until we get that, why complain.

I think we can succeed with IT. The team is becoming better at defending. We get more help at guard and a shot blocking PF, we are fighting for a playoff spot next year.

Even more than a scorer, if we really want a defensive pg, you need a 2 and/or 3 that can break down the defense. Granted, elite SG scorers usually can break down defenses on a nightly basis, not just jump shoot from the outside.

 

[Bricklayer]

Don't you think it's curious that Rudy Gay has two absolutely horrible games without Thomas in the game? Whether he was playing with or without McCallum, he was horrible. The first thing it tells you is that any idea that Gay can play point forward is wrong. That's absolutely certain. The second thing it shows you is that Gay has got to have a good penetrating point guard to play with. You can have your defensive point guard - a more veteran McCallum type - but he's not compatible with Rudy Gay. Rudy Gay can' break pressure on a nightly basis. You need a pg who can break pressure and cause the defense to collapse. See IT for that. Without that kind of pg, Gay is mediocre or even terrible as we've seen the last two games.

What these two games have been are a referendum of McCallum as a PG (and a bit extended, McCallum as a PG without a supplemental ballhandler/creater at SG). What they have shown is that you need a true NBA level PG to run the point here, because the front office has rather blatantly stripped the team of all its extra ballhandlers in favor of limited catch and shoot or stay out of the way roleplayers like Ben or DWill, or Reggie or Acy.

What they have not answered is whether Isaiah is that PG, or the best version of that PG. They have told us IT > McCallum. And gee, shocker. They haven't answered IT > Lowry. Or whoever.

We've teetered without a 2nd NBA level creater for the entire season since the Vasquez trade. As much as we are punchless without Cuz, I've long considered IT getting hurt (or potentially "hurt" in this case) to be the biggest disaster we could face, simply because of the gap to the backups. Now if our backup was Lowry, and IT got hurt, and the offense collapsed without him, then we'd have something to really chatter about. Going from IT to McCallum...

 

[D-Wade]

Next season is going to be very different... Either we resign IT for 6-8 mil a year or some other team in the East will.. People can say that's too much but the numbers he is putting up translate into starting PG on many teams. Just listen to what other coaches are saying about him... All the individuals against him starting won't realize his value until he's the opposing point guard next season.. Hopefully we get a competent point guard next season because IT won't be here unless we cut Rudy's pau significantly.

 

[Siranthony]

Next season is going to be very different... Either we resign IT for 6-8 mil a year or some other team in the East will.. People can say that's too much but the numbers he is putting up translate into starting PG on many teams. Just listen to what other coaches are saying about him... All the individuals against him starting won't realize his value until he's the opposing point guard next season.. Hopefully we get a competent point guard next season because IT won't be here unless we cut Rudy's pau significantly.

If Gay does not want to restructure his deal them I would have to assume he is gone after next year. Why opt in for next year and not plan to be here after that? If he is only here for one more year then we need to find a way to keep Thomas and our young players until the contract ends.

 

[rainmaker]

Next season is going to be very different... Either we resign IT for 6-8 mil a year or some other team in the East will.. People can say that's too much but the numbers he is putting up translate into starting PG on many teams. Just listen to what other coaches are saying about him... All the individuals against him starting won't realize his value until he's the opposing point guard next season..

Well, GM's pay players, not coaches.


He’ll get between $4-5 million,” one Eastern Conference general manager told SheridanHoops.

“Depending on fit with the rest of the team, the most I would give him is the full mid-level exception,” one scout told SheridanHoops.

“Point guard is the toughest position in the NBA right now,” one league source told SheridanHoops. “The NBA discriminates against undersized point guards as well. Nate Robinson never made more than $4.5 million per year in his whole career. I’m not saying they’re identical, but just getting my point across.”

I think his value continues to be overstated in this market compared to others. He's essentially filling a huge void due to our crap backcourt. Aaron Brooks also previously filled a similar void, put up 18 per game and won the MIP player award. We've seen where his career has since gone. IT is a better player than Brooks but I think most of the league views him as a bench spark, especially on any decent team.

 

[Kingster]

What these two games have been are a referendum of McCallum as a PG (and a bit extended, McCallum as a PG without a supplemental ballhandler/creater at SG). What they have shown is that you need a true NBA level PG to run the point here, because the front office has rather blatantly stripped the team of all its extra ballhandlers in favor of limited catch and shoot or stay out of the way roleplayers like Ben or DWill, or Reggie or Acy.

What they have not answered is whether Isaiah is that PG, or the best version of that PG. They have told us IT > McCallum. And gee, shocker. They haven't answered IT > Lowry. Or whoever.

We've teetered without a 2nd NBA level creater for the entire season since the Vasquez trade. As much as we are punchless without Cuz, I've long considered IT getting hurt (or potentially "hurt" in this case) to be the biggest disaster we could face, simply because of the gap to the backups. Now if our backup was Lowry, and IT got hurt, and the offense collapsed without him, then we'd have something to really chatter about. Going from IT to McCallum...

You have to be more specific than McCallum as a point guard isn't sufficient, or McCallum without a ballhandler/creator pg isn't sufficient. You intimate it, but you don't name it: He isn't a pressure-breaking point guard. You say he's not a true point guard, but that appellation does nothing for conveying meaning unless you define it. McCallum looks like he can defend, he can hit the open shot, he has pretty good vision. But the element that McCallum misses is elite quickness/speed. Nobody is scared of McCallum driving in the paint and scoring the ball. That's the biggest specific concrete difference between IT and McCallum. Vague references to IT > McCallum doesn't cut it. It just invites the question, and I think I've given the correct answer.

Second, there is no mention of Gay in your post, nor his specific strengths and weaknesses. Gay has been an F the last two outings, which just coincidentally have been missing IT. Why? Because he isn't NBA good at ball handling and he's been playing with a pg who can't break pressure and a 2-guard who can't break pressure. If you're going to have Gay as a long term answer, you better have a 2 that is elite in terms of shooting and ball handling - shooting because he's got to open the floor for Cousins, ball handling because there should be one other good ball handler other than your pg.

As far as Lowry is concerned, sure if he were the backup we'd be in a good situation. He can break pressure and defend adequately. He's probably the best one could hope for, but probably a pipe dream. My main point is that for those who think a Chalmers, Heinrick, Beverly "et al "defensive" type is the answer to their prayers for the Kings turning the corner, think again.

 

[kupman]

Using this game as evidence that one player is better than another and so on really does not make much sense to me. This game is evidence for only 1 thing. This team is an embarrassment. That may sound harsh, but it is the truth. When a team completely lacks effort or desire it is an embarrassment to themselves and the fans.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

If Gay does not want to restructure his deal them I would have to assume he is gone after next year. Why opt in for next year and not plan to be here after that? If he is only here for one more year then we need to find a way to keep Thomas and our young players until the contract ends.

He opts in to get the biggest payday of his career, that enormous 19 mil or so, and also gets to see where the team is heading with player additions and the overall feel of things in the organization. If he doesn't prefer where things are going after next season, he then has the option of signing another multi year deal with another team. There will be interest, since he's a talented player with the ability to "close" at the end of games

 

[King Baller]

The best thing about this game is that Cousins was able to control his response to the hard fouls and losing.

It was a tank job with DMC and Gay each playing 20 minutes or so. IT sat out with a bruise? The McRookies each played 45+ minutes and got some lessons.

Ray and Ben both need to get more crafty around the hoop. Guards who just go straight in get their shot blocked in the NBA.

More NBA lessons are scheduled today in Dallas.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

What these two games have been are a referendum of McCallum as a PG (and a bit extended, McCallum as a PG without a supplemental ballhandler/creater at SG). What they have shown is that you need a true NBA level PG to run the point here, because the front office has rather blatantly stripped the team of all its extra ballhandlers in favor of limited catch and shoot or stay out of the way roleplayers like Ben or DWill, or Reggie or Acy.

What they have not answered is whether Isaiah is that PG, or the best version of that PG. They have told us IT > McCallum. And gee, shocker. They haven't answered IT > Lowry. Or whoever.

We've teetered without a 2nd NBA level creater for the entire season since the Vasquez trade. As much as we are punchless without Cuz, I've long considered IT getting hurt (or potentially "hurt" in this case) to be the biggest disaster we could face, simply because of the gap to the backups. Now if our backup was Lowry, and IT got hurt, and the offense collapsed without him, then we'd have something to really chatter about. Going from IT to McCallum...

See, there is a prevalent notion among these parts that were we to replace Isaiah with an offensively reliant PG (Chalmers, Fisher, Hill, the 3+D type) we would be fine. What I personally have long suspected is that because the modern NBA allows defenders to play zones instead of forcing them to stay man-to-man, you NEED a penetrating PG type next to a dominant interior big. The fact that we were down 20 to the freaking Knicks at home and the fact that the Thunder beat us with Durant and Westbrook barely playing half the game lends credence to that idea.

Obviously, McCallam was terrible, but thats the same style of game you would expect out of a Fisher or Chalmers, although the other guys probably don't go 2/12. However, it wasn't effectiveness that was the issue; the failure was in the style a roleplaying PG next to Cousins and Rudy. So we watched Rudy get smushed, twice, and Demarcus get swarmed, looking disgusted with his own teammates. If you want to replace Isaiah in the lineup, get me a better PG. Get me Lowry, or Dragic, Conley whoever. Don't replace him with Mario F. Chalmers. That idiotic notion needs to die a swift, merciful death to never return.

Of course then the issue becomes how to acquire a better point guard without gutting the team. To which I say the far bigger priority is investing assets into putting a rim protector next to Demarcus. Its not worth wasting precious resources upgrading from IT to whoever while still staring down a complete lack of rim protection.

 

[Spike]

Well, the past two games showed me that McCallum isn't ready, but they didn't show that IT is the guy. I've seen three years of that to know.

It isn't that IT gets the offense going or sets up his teammates; he doesn't. He does score enough to mask those deficiencies for those who aren't paying attention.

McCallum DID have to go against Westbrook - about as tough a cover as you can get, and was not ready. He started very jittery against the weak backcourt of NY, but looked better late. It also helped that Cousins wanted to play that game.

Has the FO seen enough? I guess we'll see with how long IT's "injury" lingers.

 

[KingMilz]

The best thing about this game is that Cousins was able to control his response to the hard fouls and losing.

It was a tank job with DMC and Gay each playing 20 minutes or so. IT sat out with a bruise? The McRookies each played 45+ minutes and got some lessons.

Ray and Ben both need to get more crafty around the hoop. Guards who just go straight in get their shot blocked in the NBA.

More NBA lessons are scheduled today in Dallas.

No it was not Cousins and Gay have sucked everytime this year they have played the Thunder and Cousins sucked all last year against the Thunder as well. We just got one of those typical no effort low IQ Sacramento Kings games which have been far to common this season and have done zero for the "culture change".

 

[King Baller]

No it was not Cousins and Gay have sucked everytime this year they have played the Thunder and Cousins sucked all last year against the Thunder as well. We just got one of those typical no effort low IQ Sacramento Kings games which have been far to common this season and have done zero for the "culture change".

You mad?

 

[Padrino]

No it was not Cousins and Gay have sucked everytime this year they have played the Thunder and Cousins sucked all last year against the Thunder as well. We just got one of those typical no effort low IQ Sacramento Kings games which have been far to common this season and have done zero for the "culture change".

a young, inconsistent kings team with an imbalanced roster, a buncha mid-season acquisitions, a disappointing first round pick, and a losing record struggles against one of the top-three teams in the entire nba? ya don't say?!



ben mclemore and ray mccallum logged 46 minutes each against the thunder. coach malone has made it clear that the remainder of the season will be dedicated to seeing what the kings have in their rookies, neither of whom has done a damn thing to earn such obscenely heavy minutes...

on top of that, both demarcus cousins and isaiah thomas have been held out of games recently due to "injuries" of the tanking variety, and people still get up in arms over the effort and outcome of a single game, as if the kings hadn't lost 46 games prior to the last one. but i suppose it's good to see that kf.com still knows how to overreact in the throes of a lost season...

 

[Chubbs]

Those of you who argued against my thought that the FO was tanking when we dumped the rest of our backcourt have some splaining to do now that we just played our terrible rookies an obscene 45 plus minutes each. While Isaiah is out with an "injury." Expect more of those.

 

[Glenn]

a young, inconsistent kings team with an imbalanced roster, a buncha mid-season acquisitions, a disappointing first round pick, and a losing record struggles against one of the top-three teams in the entire nba? ya don't say?!



ben mclemore and ray mccallum logged 46 minutes each against the thunder. coach malone has made it clear that the remainder of the season will be dedicated to seeing what the kings have in their rookies, neither of whom has done a damn thing to earn such obscenely heavy minutes...

on top of that, both demarcus cousins and isaiah thomas have been held out of games recently due to "injuries" of the tanking variety, and people still get up in arms over the effort and outcome of a single game, as if the kings hadn't lost 46 games prior to the last one. but i suppose it's good to see that kf.com still knows how to overreact in the throes of a lost season...

What's with all this rationality, oh godfather of us all?

I guess it is part of the disease of fandom that so much is made of every single game and every single player's stats. It becomes doubly worth a pompous note if it serves your personal agenda. Shame on you for spoiling the hysteria.

And to follow up on what Chubbs wrote, other than tanking, why would the FO leave us bereft of guards?

 

[VF21]

a young, inconsistent kings team with an imbalanced roster, a buncha mid-season acquisitions, a disappointing first round pick, and a losing record struggles against one of the top-three teams in the entire nba? ya don't say?!



ben mclemore and ray mccallum logged 46 minutes each against the thunder. coach malone has made it clear that the remainder of the season will be dedicated to seeing what the kings have in their rookies, neither of whom has done a damn thing to earn such obscenely heavy minutes...

on top of that, both demarcus cousins and isaiah thomas have been held out of games recently due to "injuries" of the tanking variety, and people still get up in arms over the effort and outcome of a single game, as if the kings hadn't lost 46 games prior to the last one. but i suppose it's good to see that kf.com still knows how to overreact in the throes of a lost season...

Pet peeve - people who make generalized statements about "kf.com" as though we all fit the comment being made.

Just sayin'...

 

[Padrino]

Pet peeve - people who make generalized statements about "kf.com" as though we all fit the comment being made.

Just sayin'...

pardon the frustrated generalization. "segments of kf.com," then.

 

[Bricklayer]

Those of you who argued against my thought that the FO was tanking when we dumped the rest of our backcourt have some splaining to do now that we just played our terrible rookies an obscene 45 plus minutes each. While Isaiah is out with an "injury." Expect more of those.

If you consider the implications of that statement, IT would have to very much feel he had been give an guarantee of a contract of some size before he would take any rsisk with his free agency coming up in 10 games.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I am willing to stipulate that and you should, too, unless you want to start Gay or Outlaw or Williams or Cousins at PG. I suppose you were thinking of some other alternative. I'd be interested.

My alternative involves a point guard not named Isaiah Thomas or Ray McCallum. Not sure why you thought my statement was limited to the nine games remaining this season?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You can't go 0-for-3 when you lead off with Chyler Leigh. But I will admit that's about the 428,742nd-best picture* of Mia Kirschner.

Bleh. Maybe if he'd posted a picture of her as June Tuesday; that was the only time I ever saw anything in Chyler Leigh. And he couldn't have picked a less attractive picture of Yvonne Strahovski, AFAIC.

Girls get a D-, and that's just for Rashida Jones.

 

[Chubbs]

If you consider the implications of that statement, IT would have to very much feel he had been give an guarantee of a contract of some size before he would take any rsisk with his free agency coming up in 10 games.

What's with all this rationality, oh godfather of us all?

I guess it is part of the disease of fandom that so much is made of every single game and every single player's stats. It becomes doubly worth a pompous note if it serves your personal agenda. Shame on you for spoiling the hysteria.

And to follow up on what Chubbs wrote, other than tanking, why would the FO leave us bereft of guards?

I think brick is right. Isaiah may be the one holding himself out. What's he have to prove right now? Nothing. Getting hurt would be a disaster for him.

How are we winning?

 

[Bricklayer]

I think brick is right. Isaiah may be the one holding himself out. What's he have to prove right now? Nothing. Getting hurt would be a disaster for him.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa!

that was NOT what I intended to imply.

I was implying that DeMarcus Cousins might, MIGHT be willing to sit out a game for us, because he's the franchise, he will be here next year, and what is good for us is good for him. I was merely suggesting that in order for IT to take a similar bullet for us, he would have to feel pretty sure he too was going to be here next year to reap the rewards.

 

[VF21]

If you watched Isaiah on the sidelines tonight, it was pretty clear he would have done just about anything to be out there playing. He isn't sitting out because he's afraid of getting hurt. That's the second time as a Kings fan I've heard someone make that allegation about a player who is all heart. The first time was about Bobby Jackson. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now.

 

[KingMilz]

You mad?

very