Grades v. Thunder 03/02/10

[Prince_XY]

with JT down... and the team needing him more than ever... Hawes failed

Hawes plays like a sissy... HE IS PURE FAIL

21 years old or not.... Hawes is an embarrassment... unacceptable... who was guarding him tonight?

I think everyone agrees with your assessment. Hawes so far has been a big failure. Otherwise, the numerous call from the fans in this board for the FO to get a better and defensive minded big would not have been talked about over and over again.

Don't you get it?

Almost everyone think we need to get a better defensive minded center!

So, there you go. That alone should tell you YOU WON already.

For now, let us just hope Hawes can still improve/change while waiting for our lazy and slow FO to wake-up and find that defensive minded center that this team badly needs - the same way that some of us hope the Maloofs find a better GM who can make this thing happen for us.

 

[Aenadin]

check check... hes an underachieving waste of 6 million dollars so far...

he gets clowned by every big in the league and then finally clowned by his coach... hes miller 2.0 and im over it...

he is only 21... and he isnt a retard... hes a wuss... afraid of contact and rebounds.

no one here knows embarrassment better than Hawes

how would you know that? seriously..... if i recall the entire team sucked on rebound tonight... maybe if you got him a coach who would tell him to start living in the paint rather than jumpshoot ur way (i respect coachie but hawes has had enough jumpshot lessons.... its time to get him to improve his other repertoire)

clowned by every big in the league? if i recall he clowned bynum with his 30 pts and 10 rbounds... he did well against caveman and his clips, and the jazz. spencers talent, skills and potential is like a spark you need some catalyst or something to set it ablaze.. instead you find ways to whiz on that little spark

seriously calm down.....


the team sucked on rebounding tonight and thats not cool.


again a defensive center is NOT ALWAYS the answer or remedy.. its rock solid TEAM DEFENSE.... something we should learn from the spurs. player A can get 5bpg but if the other 4 let their man have like 60% shooting nights would that help the team?

 

[Prince_XY]

again a defensive center is NOT ALWAYS the answer or remedy.. its rock solid TEAM DEFENSE.... something we should learn from the spurs. player A can get 5bpg but if the other 4 let their man have like 60% shooting nights would that help the team?

WRONG, because you forgot Tim Duncan who at his old age at present is still averaging 10 rebounds and almost 2 blocks per game and a career 11.7 rebounds and 2.32 blocks per game.

Also, you are forgetting Hawes is supposed to be your "future center" who should be taking the role of getting those rebounds and blocking those shots. A mere 3 rebounds for a 7-ft center is a big embarrassment especially when you are the only legitimate big that the team can count on these departments ( and also especially that Thompson and Brockman are not around )

 

[RaY Z]

I think everyone agrees with your assessment. Hawes so far has been a big failure. Otherwise, the numerous call from the fans in this board for the FO to get a better and defensive minded big would not have been talked about over and over again.

Don't you get it?

Almost everyone think we need to get a better defensive minded center!

So, there you go. That alone should tell you YOU WON already.

For now, let us just hope Hawes can still improve/change while waiting for our lazy and slow FO to wake-up and find that defensive minded center that this team badly needs - the same way that some of us hope the Maloofs find a better GM who can make this thing happen for us.

Don't bother cuz it's pointless... you won't get through to him. Just ignore him like everyone else here is doing.

Thank God Brick closed that other thread...

Really just becoming a joke....

 

[Aenadin]

WRONG, because you forgot Tim Duncan who at his old age at present is still averaging 10 rebounds and almost 2 blocks per game and a career 11.7 rebounds and 2.32 blocks per game.

Also, you are forgetting Hawes is supposed to be your "future center" who should be taking the role of getting those rebounds and blocking those shots. A mere 3 rebounds for a 7-ft center is a big embarrassment especially when you are the only legitimate big that the team can count on these departments ( and also especially that Thompson and Brockman are not around )

well if we cant turn hawes into a 10 rpg kind of guy im guessing you surround him with good able defenders. what he cant do on the defensive end he can and will compensate in the offensive end. like i said some one needs to spend extra time with him a legit big man. not just truck or SAR. i swear kareem would do wonders with this kid. even hakeem or ewing

what im talking about with the spurs is their team defense... the entire team actually tries to defend. really it takes discipline.

tonight was just a bad rebounding night for every one.

 

[mac]

WRONG, because you forgot Tim Duncan who at his old age at present is still averaging 10 rebounds and almost 2 blocks per game and a career 11.7 rebounds and 2.32 blocks per game.

Also, you are forgetting Hawes is supposed to be your "future center" who should be taking the role of getting those rebounds and blocking those shots. A mere 3 rebounds for a 7-ft center is a big embarrassment especially when you are the only legitimate big that the team can count on these departments ( and also especially that Thompson and Brockman are not around )

Err.. you do realise that Tim Duncan is one of the greatest PFs to ever play the game right? Or did you think he was just an ordinary scrub? You also do realise that Tim Duncan had Greg 'if you dont play D I will murder your family' Popovich coaching him since he entered the league right... Who has Hawes had? Kenny Natt. Eric Musselman. Reggie Theus. Pete Carill, greatest defensive coach of all time. I mean ... try to understand the background here.

I am in no way trying to make excuses for Hawes not getting the number of rebounds he should be. He should be getting more than 3 rebounds a game, especially if he's going to be our center of the future as you said. But there's no point in repeatedly bashing him about it because:

1. He won't get the message from us
2. The FO/coaching staff obviously (ok to my knowledge based on press releases at least) hasn't told him to focus on defense/rebounding as they recognise his strength is on the offensive end
3. He hasn't had a good coaching foundation as I mentioned above. I mean c'mon, Kenny Natt?

I think it's only reasonable to give him till next season, give him a full offseason under a proper (somewhat) coach in Westphal, and then judge him. He's still very, very young and time IS on his side to improve. If this time next season he's still having 3 rebound games then rest be assured I'll be more than happy to give him his fair share of criticism. Well actually no because I'd be serving the army in my country and wouldn't have time to follow the Kings ... but you get what I mean.

 

[Aenadin]

and if i recall didnt coach Westphal utilize a small ball line up.. it really has to do with coaching and guidance... you cant expect a 21 year old to learn the game on the fly.. like he said if it works why fix it.. his jumper is working for him

unless a coach tells him to stay in the paint man up and rebound and hustle.... he will remain at the top of the key. a coach roulette doesnt help his growth either... nor does it help the team

 

[Spike]

I think everyone agrees with your assessment. Hawes so far has been a big failure.

Yeah, not me.

 

[Kingstime]

and if i recall didnt coach Westphal utilize a small ball line up.. it really has to do with coaching and guidance... you cant expect a 21 year old to learn the game on the fly.. like he said if it works why fix it.. his jumper is working for him

unless a coach tells him to stay in the paint man up and rebound and hustle.... he will remain at the top of the key. a coach roulette doesnt help his growth either... nor does it help the team

Pretty much sums it up for me.

The thing about me when I watch Spencer Hawes I look for his offensive numbers and maybe a weak side block or two. He's gonna give up dunks, he's gonna miss assignments and rebounds, but it's a team game he can't control everything out there.

He's a finesse center sadly and there's nothing wrong with that, he has a role on this team. I don't expect him to go out there and snag 15 rebounds, althougth more than 3 would be nice

If we somehow come up on a defensive minded 4 that won't HURT us offensively in this years draft to start with Hawes. he will look ALOT better out there to us.

 

[mac]

To fully utilize Hawes we need to start playing him more in the paint. The same thing goes with Evans, you want him to develop a jumpshot, you can't just have him practise it in the offseason, he needs to use it in games as well. For Hawes, you can't expect him to develop a post game when most of the time he's playing in the high post during games and taking jumpshots to coachie's joy. Hawes will never be a defensive center, the same way Tyreke Evans will never be a steve nash kind of PG. The focus should be to get Hawes to play decent defence, grab maybe 8 rebounds a game, and then be a post threat who can step out and shoot as well. Imagine if we have a big man with crazy post skills who can shoot from outside, as well as a PG who can get to the rim anytime he wants and can shoot from the outside too.

With regards to getting 3 rebounds, watch the post-game interview with PW. He says that Spencer needs to get more than 3, and that Spencer himself knows that. As long as PW gets Hawes to adopt the correct mindset and work ethic, Spencer will turn out fine, we just need to give him another 1 or 2 years under proper guidance. We also need to fine tune the offense to get Hawes in the low post more, and get a defensive rebounding role player to make up for Spencer's lack of rebounding.

 

[Grawlix]

Hawes is not as bad as some of you portray. He is also not that good either.

Westphal wants hustle, contact, and effort out there. With the trade of KMart, it is clear that Hawes is the last remnant of the prototypical "finesse" Kings player. The only reason we play him is to develop him and because he is the only legit 7 footer on the team.

For the record, I believe Hawes is and will be useful to the team as a Mehmet Okur, Krstic, Ilgauskaus (without the rebounding ability) type of player.

Bottom Line: A 7-footer should not be trying so hard to find a rebound. In order to use Hawes effectively the Kings absolutely NEED a rebounding presence. It's killed us for years and continues to do so.

 

[pshn80]

I didn't come away from watching the game with the thought that Hawes was responsible. When the ball came down after a missed Thunder shot I saw all Thunder arms up for the ball. If one didn't get it then there were two other sets of Thunder arms to get it. That's a team fault not a Hawes fault. Hawes is not a very good rebounder for us - never has been. I hope he can improve. Don't throw him out yet.

 

[Kingsguy881]

with JT down... and the team needing him more than ever... Hawes failed

Hawes plays like a sissy... HE IS PURE FAIL

21 years old or not.... Hawes is an embarrassment... unacceptable... who was guarding him tonight?

I do hope you realize in 3 years you are going to look mighty foolish for all of this.

 

[Kingstime]

well if we cant turn hawes into a 10 rpg kind of guy im guessing you surround him with good able defenders. what he cant do on the defensive end he can and will compensate in the offensive end. like i said some one needs to spend extra time with him a legit big man. not just truck or SAR. i swear kareem would do wonders with this kid. even hakeem or ewing

what im talking about with the spurs is their team defense... the entire team actually tries to defend. really it takes discipline.

tonight was just a bad rebounding night for every one.

Ewing would do wonders for him, he already has a jumper that Ewing is trying to get Dwight to utilize as well.

 

[CruzDude]

Hawes is very stubborn and takes longer to absorb what he needs to change to get better. But as many have said, he is a legit 7 ft center and a better than average passer. With what looks like a fixed starting 5 and a defining rotation off the bench, he can settle into what the coaches want him to do.

Maybe one thing they want is for him to jump. In the past 20 games the Kings/Hawes have won the opening tip 4 times and one of those was a fumble by the other team. As the Thunder showed, their shorter guys out rebounded Hawes most of the time by hustle and by jumping for the ball.

Once he can consistently make 3-5 hook shots down low, with his passing and outside shot he will be a good serviceable center and a step up from Brad Miller. All part of growing and having one coach for more than a year.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I do hope you realize in 3 years you are going to look mighty foolish for all of this.

What do you mean, "in three years"? I would have gone with "as of several weeks ago".

 

[dbfish]

Doesn't PW have any plays that doesn't have Hawes playing 30' away from the basket?

 

[Tetsujin]

Doesn't PW have any plays that doesn't have Hawes playing 30' away from the basket?

I doubt it.

 

[SacTownGrantFan]

Um, precisely one of the giant steps forward in Greene's game has been his willingness to attack the rim. You don't ever want him, or really any player, to sit back there and settle for jumpshots. And he'll make error and turn it over sometimes. And thats fine. Part of being a young team is making those mistakes and working the kinks out. As long as you keep the pressure on the defense you are doing fine.

Yeah, you're right...but I disagree that it's one of his giant steps forward. Willingness to attack, alone, isn't a giant step forward, doing it well is. Besides, I think his ability to nail jumpers and 3's, plus tenacious defense are what have mainly defined his giant steps forward this year.

 

[kupman]

The large grade descrepency here betwen hawes and May makes no sense to me. May played about 1/2 the minutes that hawes did. he had 2 rbs. So if he plays Hawes minutes he gets 4 rbs? May misses lay-ups and Hawes misses 3s, they both shoot about 50%. They both pass the ball pretty well. they both play poor defense.

May did play better than Hawes, but not that much better.

May: B-
Hawes: C

 

[Bricklayer]

The large grade descrepency here betwen hawes and May makes no sense to me. May played about 1/2 the minutes that hawes did. he had 2 rbs. So if he plays Hawes minutes he gets 4 rbs? May misses lay-ups and Hawes misses 3s, they both shoot about 50%. They both pass the ball pretty well. they both play poor defense.

May did play better than Hawes, but not that much better.

May: B-
Hawes: C

And Spencer is a 7'0" starter and a supposed talent, while May is a short round Europe bound scrub. Or maybe I've got that reversed.

 

[kupman]

And Spencer is a 7'0" starter and a supposed talent, while May is a short round Europe bound scrub. Or maybe I've got that reversed.

So are there seperate grading criteria for each player?

That is, player "x" plays 25 minutes and has 15 points, 6 boards, 4 assists and 2 TO. Can you give it a grade without knowing who player "x" is?

I am not being critical here, it is an honest question on how you grade.

 

[roasthawg]

And Spencer is a 7'0" starter and a supposed talent, while May is a short round Europe bound scrub. Or maybe I've got that reversed.

What does that have to do with grading their play? Good play is good play and bad play is bad regardless of size or "potential" right?

 

[Bricklayer]

What does that have to do with grading their play? Good play is good play and bad play is bad regardless of size or "potential" right?

No. Never has been under these grades, or most grades you will encounter. If you do that, then Reke gets an A every night, Spencer gets a C every night, and May gets a D or F every night. All grading systems inherently add in "how is this compared to expectations/his normal game" stuff. Otherwise they just become restatements of the obvious -- Reke is better than anybody else, therefore he will almost always get the best grade. McGuire is a limited scrubby type, therefore he will always get a low one. Not terribly illuminative or helpful.

 

[Bricklayer]

So are there seperate grading criteria for each player?

That is, player "x" plays 25 minutes and has 15 points, 6 boards, 4 assists and 2 TO. Can you give it a grade without knowing who player "x" is?

I am not being critical here, it is an honest question on how you grade.

this has been known for a long LONG time around here. There's no possible way to have been reading the grades for any length of time at all and come to any other conclusion.

 

[FaStRmAn]

with JT down... and the team needing him more than ever... Hawes failed

Hawes plays like a sissy... HE IS PURE FAIL

21 years old or not.... Hawes is an embarrassment... unacceptable... who was guarding him tonight?

This is just TOO MUCH. Hawes was never touted as a defensive/rebounding specialist. In a VERY WEAK BIG MAN DRAFT, HE WAS REALLY ALL THERE WAS AVAILABLE where the Kings drafted. I dislike Hawes as much as the next guy on this board. I am not giving the guy a pass for his lack of effort either like some here do. But we can NOT expect this kid to be something he never was and never will be! Hawes will NEVER BE:

1) A DEFENSIVE PRESENCE IN THE PAINT - he is too frail and is allergic to weights.

2) A REBOUNDING MACHINE - he doesn't seem to have the instinct or attitude to rebound like Brockman and he never will.

3) A DOMINANT SCORER IN THE PAINT THAT DEMANDS DOUBLE TEAMS - Hawes will never bulk up and be the inside bruiser we need to compliment our other players. He is sort of a wuss in that regard.

Fans need to see Hawes in a REALISTIC view. He is one of the new breed of Stretch Forwards that can hit from the outside and force the other team's bigs to play outside the paint and out of their comfort zone. Unfortunately, playing outside the paint means few rebounds and no help defense. That is Hawes in a nutshell.

Petrie KNEW WHO HAWES WAS and selected him anyway. Hawes has NOT bulked up, and his outside the paint offense is iffy at best. He is a pretty good facilitator from the top of the key, but teams leave him open to take outside shots and pack the paint anyway to stop Evans.

So I say lets STOP HATING ON HAWES FOR NOT BEING WHAT HE WAS NEVER GOING TO BECOME ANYWAY!! He isn't a power player, so enough of the testosterone patch jokes (funny but unfair). Hawes is a wing player. If he is missing his outside shot then he isn't doing his job. BUT that is ALL he is!! NOT a tough guy inside. NOT a tough rebounder. NOT an inside force. He is none of those things, never has been and never will be.

The Kings Organization needs to draft a real center if they want a real center. This summer Petrie will be looking for a player that has all the attributes that Hawes does not. Then Hawes can come off the bench as a forward who can score and make good passes. Lets not blame Hawes for being who he is, place the blame on Petrie for drafting a center who's game is unorthodox based solely on his ability to hit 3's and make passes like a 7' tall guard. When Petrie drafted JT the following year, it was to draft a player that would make up for what Hawes lacked and would never develop. JT is the Anti-Hawes. Mixes it up in the paint, gets tough rebounds, and plays interior defense (as well as he can anyway).

I think we need to stop blaming Hawes for being the 7' guard he is and start asking WHY Petrie drafted a 7' guard. There is really no use in our offense for a 7' guard that jacks up 3's and plays point forward. I don't think Hawes fits in ANY OFFENSE on any team. So lets put this blame where it belongs, squarely on Petrie. Now we have no Center in the real definition of a center (ie rebounder, inside scorer, putbacks, blocked shots, and goalie). Now we need to get a center through free agency or draft (more like free agent because centers take a lot of time to develop). Hopefully, we can pry a real center away from a team with our cap room, and pair that center up with Landry at the 4, Casspi at the 3, Beno at the 2, and Evans at PG. So:

New Center - 5
Landry - 4
Casspi - 3
Beno - 2
Evans - 1

That would be a GOOD starting lineup. And then you have a good bench with:

Greene, Dorsey, JT, May, Brockman, Hawes playing 4/5

Greene, Dorsey, McGuire playing 3/4

Garcia, Nocioni playing 2/3

Garcia, Udoka who can play the 2

And Garcia is a good backup pointguard who can rotate with Beno and Evans.

So Center is our area of need. But we knew that going in this year. We all thought that Hawes was going to fill that need, but he isn't a center and we put too much expectation on Hawes to fill a need that he doesn't have the ability to fill. At least not as a starter. Off the bench for a few minutes maybe with the right group around him, but not as a featured big man in the middle. He just can't fill that position. We as fans need to stop bashing Hawes for not living up to OUR expectations of a center. He is an unorthodox perimeter player who just happens to be 7'1". It is NOT HAWES'S FAULT that
Petrie drafted him to play center. He doesn't have the skill set to play center as a starter,

 

[Superman]

There was no small amount of outrage at times when certain players would have really good games and not get the highest grade possible, and the reasoning was always "he's held to a higher standard than other players." And that makes sense. Your best player can go 5-8 from the field, grab six rebounds and have four assists, and get a C-, but if a bench player at the end of the rotation does that, he's going to get a B+.

 

[sactownfan]

Don't bother cuz it's pointless... you won't get through to him. Just ignore him like everyone else here is doing.

Thank God Brick closed that other thread...

Really just becoming a joke....

Hawes as a starting Center in this league is a much funnier joke...

 

[venom_7]

Cane toads are invasive in AUS, but the native Meat Ants can eat them and nt be affected by poison.

 

[chasen4r1]

Hawes as a starting Center in this league is a much funnier joke...

How long before you give it up? I honestly can't think of anything you post about on these boards except for Hawes' failures. I don't post here often, as seen by my post count, but I read the threads here often. It seems every post I read by you is essentially the same. It's gotten very old.