[Grades] Grades v. Spurs 11/16/2016

Kings Less-Than-Awesome starter of the night?

  • Rudy! Rudy!

    Votes: 8 44.4%
  • Kosta was the Mosta

    Votes: 4 22.2%
  • The Afflack duck

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • Tyrrific Lawson

    Votes: 5 27.8%

  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .
We're 29th defensively in the league right now. I think at best this team could get to 23 by end of season. Thats mediocrity at its finest considering on offense we are middle of the pack. At least last season our offense was top five I believe.

26th according to bball reference.

And last 2 years:
2016-17: 16th ORTG, 26th DRTG
2015-16: 15th ORTG, 22nd DRTG


And I don't know why 23rd would be some sort of magical ceiling for us if we click into Joerger-style defensive gear. The 23rd ranked team right now is the 76ers with a 108.7 DRTG. The 22nd ranked team is....the golden State Warriors with a 108.6. Lakers are 19th with a 108.0. Magic are 17th with 107.8.

A little quick math says if we were no more than league average (matching Memphis this year with a 107.3 here on out), we would finish with a 107.7 DRTG, good for 17th. We don't even have to be good to reach that. Its been 12 games. The first 12 games with a new coach and system.
 
I'll explain where the conflict is.

Yes, Cousins (publicly) agreed.

For now.

You think Cousins didn't know from historical track record that "his team" might come out flat if he allowed them to be lackadaisical at shootaround?
Yet, he still chose to be not serious, apparently setting the team up not to implement the hard-nosed style of play Joerger was preaching the past 5 days.
And it bit the team in the ass, and they lost because of it.
Then Joerger basically says he won;t allow that to happen again (i.e. he won't allow Cuz to be lazy in shootarounds) and you think there's no upcoming conflict there?

You KNOW it's going to happen again - if nothing else, I'm sure you can admit that Cousins has proven that lackadaisical efforts happen A LOT on his team the past 7 years.

Here's another built-in conflict between Joerger and Cuz this interview reminds us of:
Joerger wants to play faster.
Cuz doesn't. Last year he got injured while playing fast paced.
It's not in his game:

Cuz simply cannot run back on defense quickly, when he is utilized so much on offense. Especially since half of his drives, he ends up sprawling on the court in a prone position (gets the call about 10% of the times he does that BTW).
Cuz cannot/will not run down fast and get set in the paint quickly on offense, either.
Lawson's interview screams that he is frustrated with the entire offense (which hinges around Cuz) having to wait till there are <10 seconds remaining before they start the play because Cuz isn;t in position on offense.

These are built-in conflicts, and they aren't going away anytime soon.
If the losing continues, I predict they will reach a head soon that even you will not be able to ignore.
 
Part of the culture change is that there ARE no disgruntled stars right now. There are disgruntled fans projecting.

Someone up above asked what the team's strengths are, well I can tell you what they are MEANT to be:

-- inside scoring
-- gritty defense
-- veteran steadiness
-- competitiveness

Now of those 3 of the 4 have been spotted fairly consistently, including the veteran steadiness and competitiveness. Its the single best thing the team has done so far. Outside of the Milwaulkee game, which was straight #KANGZ, this team has not given up yet this season. Even when outmatched it never turns into a debacle. The other team starts to open the lead, and we punch back with a little flurry to keep within shouting distance. There isn't panic, and there isn't quit.

Once again the panic and quit are being imported by the viewers.

P.S. the big thing that has not consistently appeared is the gritty defense. That's the big key to making a setup like the one we have work. Gotta defend. We have enough individual defenders to do it, but we've only seen spurts. Its got to be driving Joerger crazy.


Obviously, you've been a big proponent of keeping Cuz, building with the new coach, and not panicking. I understand that approach and can respect it. I would like to know though, at what point will you flip that and say it's time to move on? If we are 20-34 at the break this year, will you support the notion that we need to blow it up?
 
I'll explain where the conflict is.

Yes, Cousins agreed.

For now.

You think Cousins didn't know from historical track record that "his team" might come out flat if he allowed them to be lackadaisical at shootaround?
Yet, he still chose to be not serious, apparently setting the team up not to implement the hard-nosed style of play Joerger was preaching the past 5 days.
And it bit the team in the ass, and they lost because of it.
Then Joerger basically says he won;t allow that to happen again (i.e. he won't allow Cuz to be lazy in shootarounds) and you think there's no upcoming conflict there?

My lord.

You have to be kidding me again. Its clear how you wander into all of those conspiracy sorts of grounds.

"Yet, he still chose to be not serious..."

WHAT? Where the hell do you get that. THEY, the team, were not serious.

"(i.e. he won't allow Cuz to be lazy in shootarounds)"

Again, WHAT?? That's neither what Joerger said nor implied.


This stuff is all over the board right now, but that's particularly egregious. You're just reading in your own stuff there.
 
Obviously, you've been a big proponent of keeping Cuz, building with the new coach, and not panicking. I understand that approach and can respect it. I would like to know though, at what point will you flip that and say it's time to move on? If we are 20-34 at the break this year, will you support the notion that we need to blow it up?

If we're 20-34 at the break something will have to be done.

I will, however, never be an advocate of trading Cousins unless he gives an indication he wants out or is not going to resign. Which is possible. Then you do what you need to do.

BTW, people continue to miss the rather blatant fact that Dave Joerger didn't come here to oversee a kiddie corps and win 20 games a year. He came here to coach Cuz and vets and win. He deserves absolutely every chance to do so, because when this gets blown up you're going to lose the franchise player, GM and quite possibly best coach we've had in a decade before they are ever ready to win again. This is our best player/coach/management team we've had since it was Petrie/Webb/Adelman. Because of all the wasted years, what it does not have is much time, but hell if I would ever do anything to artificially close its small window. Given a few years the odds of us not winning with a Joerger/Cousins pairing are miniscule.
 
I'll explain where the conflict is.

Yes, Cousins (publicly) agreed.

For now.

You think Cousins didn't know from historical track record that "his team" might come out flat if he allowed them to be lackadaisical at shootaround?
Yet, he still chose to be not serious, apparently setting the team up not to implement the hard-nosed style of play Joerger was preaching the past 5 days.
And it bit the team in the ass, and they lost because of it.
Then Joerger basically says he won;t allow that to happen again (i.e. he won't allow Cuz to be lazy in shootarounds) and you think there's no upcoming conflict there?

You KNOW it's going to happen again - if nothing else, I'm sure you can admit that Cousins has proven that lackadaisical efforts happen A LOT on his team the past 7 years.

Here's another built-in conflict between Joerger and Cuz this interview reminds us of:
Joerger wants to play faster.
Cuz doesn't. Last year he got injured while playing fast paced.
It's not in his game:

Cuz simply cannot run back on defense quickly, when he is utilized so much on offense. Especially since half of his drives, he ends up sprawling on the court in a prone position (gets the call about 10% of the times he does that BTW).
Cuz cannot/will not run down fast and get set in the paint quickly on offense, either.
Lawson's interview screams that he is frustrated with the entire offense (which hinges around Cuz) having to wait till there are <10 seconds remaining before they start the play because Cuz isn;t in position on offense.

These are built-in conflicts, and they aren't going away anytime soon.
If the losing continues, I predict they will reach a head soon that even you will not be able to ignore.
I think you are taking some liberties with some parts of the interviews.....and as far as Lawson is concerned, part of the reason the paint is packed is he can't shoot. He's part of the problem. I believe Joerger mentioned that there will be lineup changes. I think Tolliver should start next to Cuz. He's a better defender interior wise than Barnes and can be an effective stretch 4 as you must guard him at the 3 point line. You can even keep Lawson starting and try that. If you start WCS with Cuz, it doesn't stretch the floor but he's been effective next to him. I'm for stretching the floor to help the O.....see what happens.
 
"Yet, he still chose to be not serious..."

WHAT? Where the hell do you get that. THEY, the team, were not serious.
I got that from the 3 interviews combined (Lawson, Cuz, and Joerger), and from Cousins' own words.
Did you watch the Cousins interview?

In it, he is asked, "Coach was pretty critical of the demeanor of the shootaround and the preparation leading up to that."
He answered, "I take the blame for that. As the leader of this team, I gotta do better. I gotta get my guys together. Gotta have more focused shoot-arounds, and that falls back on me. So he's absolutely right."
"(i.e. he won't allow Cuz to be lazy in shootarounds)"

Again, WHAT?? That's neither what Joerger said nor implied.

This stuff is all over the board right now, but that's particularly egregious. You're just reading in your own stuff there.
Do you retract these statements and insults after listening to Cuz's own words answering your questions?
 
... And I don't know why 23rd would be some sort of magical ceiling for us if we click into Joerger-style defensive gear...
You're talking to a guy who expects that we will "at best" go 2-4 over the "easy" part of the schedule. I'm amazed that he's set the ceiling that high.
 
We're 29th defensively in the league right now. I think at best this team could get to 23 by end of season. Thats mediocrity at its finest considering on offense we are middle of the pack. At least last season our offense was top five I believe.
We are 29th cause of ref bias and George Karl otherwise we would be top 5
 
Whoever graded WCS a B- was watching a different game than me. Why does the dude always look winded even though he plays barely 20 minutes per game?

JOKE.

The thing that is frustrating about Willie is not only what he CAN"T do (rebound, block shots like last year, stay on his feet on pump fakes) but what he doesn't even TRY to do.

For example if you have a live dribble at 16 feet with defender giving you space and all you are trying to do is pass the ball to the weak side, what are you even doing??!

Where's your aggressiveness, confidence, off-season work translating into something, desire to be a star???

While I am it ripping this guy deservedly so who should be out-playing another BIG disappointment playing in front of him (Koufos), and getting the starting nod, is that Willie doesn't even have good posture.

Stand up straight, brother! Show some pride and confidence! Be a man NOT a mouse!

You think I am joking, I am NOT! This guy slouches like he doesn't belong on the court.

I'd show more confidence at the Women Olympics ice figure skating in a tu-tu, and I don't ice skate or wear a tutu.

The season is on the brink with a handful of underachievers.

Let us count the ways:
  • A-Slow-O (formerly known as Affalo)
  • Koufos
  • Omri
  • Lawson
  • Barnes (wildly inconsistent and TO prone though I like his aggressiveness; his TOV% is 20.8 % yikes)
  • Willie
  • Tolliver
That's over half of the roster that has been a minor to major letdown and the reason this is SO disappointing is because we have Boogie playing the best basketball of his career. I knew this kid was primed to have a great season, and besides a few hiccups here and there, mainly with refs, and forcing a few looks, he's been fantastic:
  • 58% TS! (vs 53% career)
  • 1.2 ASST: TO (vs 0.8 career)
  • 3.2 assists to 2.8 turnover (very good)
  • good effort on defense, not lagging plays like last year
  • good job on pick and roll showing and rotating back
  • could be better on boards
To emphasize the passing stat, Boogie has a career turnover percentage (TOV%) of 15%. This year it is down to 10%. The slower pace helps but so does his decision making and reads. I have been highly critical of his lack of post moves, and I see an improvement there too. He's lighter on his feet which allows him to dance like Fred Astaire. For the first time in his career, Boogie is justifying his over 30%+ usage rate.

I don't read these threads like I used to but I hope this point has been made:

We are wasting our franchise player finally playing like a superstar.

The only guys cutting the mustard are:
  • Ben
  • Boogie
  • Rudy
  • Temple
  • Darren
And this is why we are 4-8. If even 1-2 guys from the top list could've joined the bottom, we would be 6-6 or 7-5 and sitting pretty.

As it stands it is time to shake up the starting line-up with Darren and Ben inserted as starters and tweedle-dee (Ty) and tweedle-dumb (A-Slow-O) having a seat.

The lesson learned at least from my standpoint is never take too much for pre-season (A-Slow-O was impressive, Rudy was sleepwalking, and since then Rudy has awaken and A-Slow-O is showing us why Knicks said buh-bye black hole), and to trust the preponderance of statistical evidence instead of being fooled that 10-PER journeymen represent the holy grail.

The truth is Seth Curry is better than Affalo, not defensively but more explosive and creative and offensively.....and a lot more fun to watch!. There's NO real difference between Tolliver and Quincy. Ty Lawson is fast and can run an offense, but his inability to be an offensive threat (Rondo is Steph Curry by comparison) puts a drag on our 1st and 3rd quarters and increases the scoring burden on Rudy and Boogie.

This is starting to become an indictment of Vlade for being TOO in love with older players, including an old rookie in Willie. That's two years in a row Vlade has fallen in love with a veteran shooting guard (Bricko and now A-Slow-O). He's fallen for fool's gold and the team is suffering because of it.

The dark cloud that looms is Boogie is going to have a fantastic season without the wins to show for it. This is starting to look like a guy who may be looking to survey his options when his contract runs out. These are precarious times to turn the season around and win some games to get to .500, including making a trade to salvage the season before it is too late.
 
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If we're 20-34 at the break something will have to be done.

I will, however, never be an advocate of trading Cousins unless he gives an indication he wants out or is not going to resign. Which is possible. Then you do what you need to do.

BTW, people continue to miss the rather blatant fact that Dave Joerger didn't come here to oversee a kiddie corps and win 20 games a year. He came here to coach Cuz and vets and win. He deserves absolutely every chance to do so, because when this gets blown up you're going to lose the franchise player, GM and quite possibly best coach we've had in a decade before they are ever ready to win again. This is our best player/coach/management team we've had since it was Petrie/Webb/Adelman. Because of all the wasted years, what it does not have is much time, but hell if I would ever do anything to artificially close its small window. Given a few years the odds of us not winning with a Joerger/Cousins pairing are miniscule.

I think the problem is that Cuz is the only asset that we have that could potentially be valuable in a blow up rebuild situation. Gay is an asset who probably might get us a couple rotational players but it's doubtful he could be traded for young talent and/or high picks. Everybody else is pretty much worthless on the trade market other than being filler.

We simply don't have enough talent, and IMO, Cuz doesn't have the makeup to carry a bunch of role players to the playoffs.
 
Talk about reading something in.

First listen to Joerger's comments, then listen to Cousins' comments, and you tell me where the conflict is. They essentially agreed.

P.S. Joerger is a very smart guy. Listen to his comments on Lawson and he is spot on. Its one of the reasons that sooner or later he'll get this thing spun around. He's smart and strong-willed and knows what he wants to see.

I agree on Joerger, but he better get it figured out sooner rather than later or it will be too late.
 
I'll explain where the conflict is.

Yes, Cousins (publicly) agreed.

For now.

You think Cousins didn't know from historical track record that "his team" might come out flat if he allowed them to be lackadaisical at shootaround?
Yet, he still chose to be not serious, apparently setting the team up not to implement the hard-nosed style of play Joerger was preaching the past 5 days.
And it bit the team in the ass, and they lost because of it.
Then Joerger basically says he won;t allow that to happen again (i.e. he won't allow Cuz to be lazy in shootarounds) and you think there's no upcoming conflict there?

You KNOW it's going to happen again - if nothing else, I'm sure you can admit that Cousins has proven that lackadaisical efforts happen A LOT on his team the past 7 years.

Here's another built-in conflict between Joerger and Cuz this interview reminds us of:
Joerger wants to play faster.
Cuz doesn't. Last year he got injured while playing fast paced.
It's not in his game:

Cuz simply cannot run back on defense quickly, when he is utilized so much on offense. Especially since half of his drives, he ends up sprawling on the court in a prone position (gets the call about 10% of the times he does that BTW).
Cuz cannot/will not run down fast and get set in the paint quickly on offense, either.
Lawson's interview screams that he is frustrated with the entire offense (which hinges around Cuz) having to wait till there are <10 seconds remaining before they start the play because Cuz isn;t in position on offense.

These are built-in conflicts, and they aren't going away anytime soon.
If the losing continues, I predict they will reach a head soon that even you will not be able to ignore.

Besides all that Cousins has been stealing jerseys from the team store. Let's play basketball.
 
I'm not sure if I'm feeling better or worse after listening to Joergers post game. I've heard the word "pace" more than I've cared too from him so far. I'm thinking the "grit and grind" was a Memphis thing and Joerger is in Sac to be an uptempo coach. If that's the case then fine, start playing units that can succeed in that style.
 
The truth is Seth Curry is better than Affalo, not defensively but more explosive and creative and offensively.....and a lot more fun to watch!. There's NO real difference between Tolliver and Quincy. Ty Lawson is fast and can run an offense, but his inability to be an offensive threat (Rondo is Steph Curry by comparison) puts a drag on our 1st and 3rd quarters and increases the scoring burden on Rudy and Boogie.

There's one difference between Acy and Tolliver ... Quincy Acy is getting paid $1 million to sit on the bench and Tolliver is getting paid $8 million to sit on the bench.
 
I'm not sure if I'm feeling better or worse after listening to Joergers post game. I've heard the word "pace" more than I've cared too from him so far. I'm thinking the "grit and grind" was a Memphis thing and Joerger is in Sac to be an uptempo coach. If that's the case then fine, start playing units that can succeed in that style.

We're 28th in the league in pace. Be hard to slow it down much more in the current league.

Joerger's evocation of "pace" in that post game was interesting. The observation about Ty not being a good fit for the system and needing pace was right on. But could not tell if that bothered Joerger or not.

His other references to it seemed to largely be centered on defensive intensity and aggression.
 
We're 28th in the league in pace. Be hard to slow it down much more in the current league.

Joerger's evocation of "pace" in that post game was interesting. The observation about Ty not being a good fit for the system and needing pace was right on. But could not tell if that bothered Joerger or not.

His other references to it seemed to largely be centered on defensive intensity and aggression.


A few games ago I noticed the tone from him was still about the offensive issues, and I'm still not sure what Jeorgers answer is going to be. The Kings game log is an interesting read, the Kings have won only one game in which the other team has scored more than 100 points. If his answer is to adjust the pace, which it sounds like it's being implied by him, I wonder how that would help the teams defensive issues. The Kings are in the middle of the pack in offensive efficiency, but they are second to last in defensive efficiency. Maybe increasing the number of possessions gives them a better shot game to game, but it certainly doesn't sound like the benchmark for a defense first team and certainly not a path to success with the pieces he has at his disposal.
 
If Joeger wants pace it's really easy. Substitute out of the starting lineup:
Koufos, Lawson, Afflalo for Willie, Collison, and Benny Mac. Problem solved.
 
Not to take away from your point, as Tolliver getting 8mil to warm the bench sucks, but the Mavs just waived Acy. For whatever thats worth.

http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/mavericks-quincy-acy-waived-by-mavs/

...which is what you'd expect to see with a 12th man on a minimum contract. :)

The question I keep asking myself is why we want to spend substantial money on fringe NBA players who probably couldn't crack a playoff rotation and claim poor when somebody like Tyreke Evans or Rajon Rondo wants a new contract. No NBA coach is going to play more than 10 players in their regular rotation and it's your top 7 or 8 players who determine your winning potential. Why not invest your limited cap space on the starting lineup and a few key bench players and then fill out the rest of the roster with minimum contract vets and rookies? We didn't need to get Afflalo, Temple, Barnes and Tolliver in the same off-season. Just Garrett Temple would have been fine. There's your defensive bench wing. Tolliver is redundant with Omri Casspi anyway. Afflalo is redundant with McLemore. Barnes really only makes sense if we trade Rudy. It's just a waste of resources.
 
It is easy to criticize a team, especially after their front line got beat up by San Antonio. Is it just me, or do the Kings look exhausted on offense now by the 4th quarter? They stand around and give it to Cousins. Playing defense is taking it out of them because they are not used to it. Cousins had a good game while leading the NBA in fouls. He moves well laterally but does not get off the floor well. He had 3 possessions in a row last night where he used his crashing style into the teeth of the SA defense. He had his shot blocked three times in a row. It does not show up in the stat line, but he may get his shot blocked more than anyone in the League. The term "forcing it" describes him a lot of the time. Often he gets away with it. It just seems like in a game that was lost by 5 points, it would make a difference to have Cousins be some what more selective with his inside play especially against a front line with Gasol, Aldridge and Leonard.
 
...which is what you'd expect to see with a 12th man on a minimum contract. :)

The question I keep asking myself is why we want to spend substantial money on fringe NBA players who probably couldn't crack a playoff rotation and claim poor when somebody like Tyreke Evans or Rajon Rondo wants a new contract. No NBA coach is going to play more than 10 players in their regular rotation and it's your top 7 or 8 players who determine your winning potential. Why not invest your limited cap space on the starting lineup and a few key bench players and then fill out the rest of the roster with minimum contract vets and rookies? We didn't need to get Afflalo, Temple, Barnes and Tolliver in the same off-season. Just Garrett Temple would have been fine. There's your defensive bench wing. Tolliver is redundant with Omri Casspi anyway. Afflalo is redundant with McLemore. Barnes really only makes sense if we trade Rudy. It's just a waste of resources.
To be fair, I'm willing to spend Afflalo money if it means putting Benny Mac in the bench to finally learn at his own pace to become a Wesley Matthews.
 
It is easy to criticize a team, especially after their front line got beat up by San Antonio. Is it just me, or do the Kings look exhausted on offense now by the 4th quarter? They stand around and give it to Cousins. Playing defense is taking it out of them because they are not used to it. Cousins had a good game while leading the NBA in fouls. He moves well laterally but does not get off the floor well. He had 3 possessions in a row last night where he used his crashing style into the teeth of the SA defense. He had his shot blocked three times in a row. It does not show up in the stat line, but he may get his shot blocked more than anyone in the League. The term "forcing it" describes him a lot of the time. Often he gets away with it. It just seems like in a game that was lost by 5 points, it would make a difference to have Cousins be some what more selective with his inside play especially against a front line with Gasol, Aldridge and Leonard.
That would be a fairly accurate assessment of the 4th quarter. Too many times we try to (Charles Barkley in Phoenix) Cousins on the block and it just doesn't work. To be fair to DeMarcus, he spends the whole game running from rim to rim and like Kareem said in Airplane, 'You tell your old man to drag Walt and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes'. The other 4 guys need to be in position and working an offense by the time Cuz gets to the block, which would have set the defense on its heels running at that point. Which would work great with a gazelle like Willie rim running alongside Cuz.

I just fear that we will let Cuz go and some other team will figure out how to use him properly to the point where he is already making his move when the double tries to come, at which point he will probably lead the league in and1s
 
Okay, but wouldn't putting Garrett Temple in the starting lineup accomplish the same thing?
Touche. I'm a big Temple fan. Like him WAY more than Afflalo (at this point. Wanted Afflalo 2 years before he went to Orlando). Afflalo is a spot player at this point. Probably out the league in 2 years.
 
That would be a fairly accurate assessment of the 4th quarter. Too many times we try to (Charles Barkley in Phoenix) Cousins on the block and it just doesn't work. To be fair to DeMarcus, he spends the whole game running from rim to rim and like Kareem said in Airplane, 'You tell your old man to drag Walt and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes'. The other 4 guys need to be in position and working an offense by the time Cuz gets to the block, which would have set the defense on its heels running at that point. Which would work great with a gazelle like Willie rim running alongside Cuz.

I just fear that we will let Cuz go and some other team will figure out how to use him properly to the point where he is already making his move when the double tries to come, at which point he will probably lead the league in and1s
What needs to happen when Cousins gets doubled, is someone slashing/cutting to give him a target rather than standing around. I have seen posters (not you specifically) criticize DMC for not making the pass from the double team, without addressing the fact that no one is consistently providing him an out. SOMEONE is open if he is getting doubled. If he can pass out of the double to ANYONE then you can pass, pass, and pass again if need be to get the best look. It is frustrating to watch sometimes.