Grades v. Sonics 2/10 & 2/11

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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well, pooey -- turns out I covered over my notes for the first gane with my notes for game 2. So relatively briefely and from memory, the yin and the yang:

Artest ( B+/B ) -- Game 1: got off to a great dominating start that sort of set a tone for us, and then largely stayed out of the way the rest of the game. Shot looked great. Grade: B. Game 2: good on the glass all game long, and an all around start again. Did not shoot well, but threw in two garbagetime threes which I am discouting here as irrelevant.
Thomas ( B+/--) -- Game 1: played a good game in Seattle, giving us a nice burst of roleplayer energy that the Sonics were completely lacking. Was all glasswork early, but began to chip in hustle/garbagfe boards in the third. Game 2: DNP (injured)
Williams ( INC/C ) -- Game 1: garbagetime, showed some energy on the offensive boards, but could not get anything to fall. Game 2: first career start must have been a disappointment. Started off the game with a burst of activity on the glass and help defense, but was fooled repeatedly by Wilcox, who got past him for easy scores. Barely got a chance after half as we got off to the sluggish 3rd quarter start (of course).
Reef ( B-/C+ ) -- Game 1: solid offensive start with 7 quick points. Fell off scoringwise, although moved the ball solidly to help us keep on rolling. Never did give us anything on the glass. Game 2: another pretty good offensive start, but nothing else before half -- 10pts 1reb at the break. Played the third, and tossed in a few more hoops. Again, never did give us any boardwork. And when we made our big push to get back into it, he was on the bench. We seemed to get better with the energy of our all 6'7" athlete grouping ratehr than the with the old slowfooted Bibby/Reef Vancouver duo.
Martin ( A-/B ) -- Game 1: had another big game against the Sonics back in the spot where I mentioned earlier this season he had one of his darkest moments as a pro. It was last December I beleive, and we wnet into Seattle wiht Kevin comig off the bench, and on a cold streak. He was brought in and had a disastrous stint trying to guard Ray Allen -- Ray schooled him badly, lit us up almost every time down the floor wiht Kevin guarding him, and after that game Kevin disappeared form the rotation for a long stretch until Bonzi's injury freed him. Well, no longer. Not Kevin's best shooting performance, not his best rounded game, but it never felt like the Sonics had an answer for him as he scored whenever we needed a hoop (especially not the laughable Michael Gelabale who if you only watched Kings games and his efforts to guard Kevin this year would appear to be the worst import from France since the idea of eating cooked snails). Did briefly get himself pulled in the third after Allen had a flashback and was lighting Kevin, and us, up and threatening to bring the Sonics back into the game singlehandedly. But otherwise a breezy 26. Game 2: not much of a first half as he missed his FTs early, then began missing his shots from the field as the half wore on. Started a third quarter mini-comeback by knocking down an open three out of an timeout, and had a big 4th quarter as we came rushing back with the Kevin/Salmons/Cisco trio on the court next to our burly midget Ron/Corliss frontline.
Bibby ( D/D ) -- Game 1: ugh. Just ugh. On a night when basically every other King was having a field day against the Sonics "defense", Mike was just...dead. Only time he showed any life was when he bizarrely spent the...late 2nd? Late 3rd? Forget, anyway, when I think out of frustration he just started charging into the paint flailing about repeatedly over a several minute period. Wiht no gretaer effect than he was hainv goutside. gets the D here rather than worse largely just because we dominated this game so thoroughly that his performance did not really hurt us. Game 2: another cold start and was losing Ridnour on the other end. Just standing out there chucking threes, nothing else. Sat out almost the entire 4th until there were 3:00 to go. We made the bulk of our comeback without him and had much better energy, but man, we had him compeltely iced by the time we suddenly went back to him I guess in the hopes that he could summon up some heroics to try to save us. he did not -- was quiet. And just what a back to back ugh. Coming as it did after that article in the Bee, and with the rumors flying, you have to wonder if he does not know something is up. Certianly looks like something has to give. Mike can't just keep on playing like crap and getting less than 30min.
Corliss ( B-/B ) -- Game 1: and here I miss those notes I lost. Efficient shooting, but the turnovers were a real problem, and it felt kind fo scrappy and ugly. I'm sure I had some truly brilliant observation in there too, but have forgotten what it was. Oh well. Game 2: Curious game to grade, because statistically, if you were looking at nothing but the box scores, you might have looked at Corliss's first half, seen 11pts 7rebs from Corliss Wlliamson, and thought "great half!". Er...not really. Struggled to finish inside early again, battled around on the boards, but it was ugly. More effective in the third, and teamed with Ron to provide a minature frontcourt that held down the boardwork fort while our energy lineup tried to bring us back. But this is still a game where the numbers looked considerably better to me than the underlying game. You get 20-10 out of Corliss, you just have to give a good grade, but it wasn't a great one.
Cisco ( A/C+ ) -- Game 1: Had a huge game changing game for us. We were going to kill the Sonics anyway -- they were dead in the water out there. But Cisco came in and not only brought big energy on defense, but for once supplemented it was a series of long bombs that helped break the game open. Game 2: couple of good fouls early, but not hitting his shots as he was a night earlier. Was part of the long/active all 6'7" crew which brought us back into this one in the early 4th, but it wasn'`t because of his own individual contributions this time.
Salmons ( B+/C+ ) -- Game 1: not much impact in the first half, but in the second half had one of those "on" Salmons games where he impacted the game without much of it showing up in the numbers. Was inserted in the mid-3rd quarter with Ray Allen going nuts on Kevin, and after scoring 29 pts in the first 2 1/2 quarters, Ray did not score even one from that point onward. Was not all John, but the timing was just too obvious for the change. Otherwise good all around roleplayer numbers for John -- 7pts 5reb 6ast. Game 2: Might have bothered Allen again in the second quarter, but Ray wasn't scoring on anybody else either in the early going. Otherwise, not much. Some good play during our comeback in the early 4th, some sloppy turnovers down the stretch.

Muss ( A-/C ) -- Game 1: lost my notes. But a) we won in a blowout, on the road; b) we were ready to play; c) Muss shortened the rotation even without Brad; d) subbing in Salmons on Allen in the third paid big dividends; and e) we still had a surge, but then a shaky third. Game 2: Noticed Muss was taking a lot of heat here, and yeah, sure. We were flat, lacking energy. Threatened to be chased from the game in the early third. But Muss took a critical timeout down 22 in the early third. Drew up a three pointer for Kevin which helped kickstart our rebirth. And it was also Muss who switched to a smaller all 6'7" Salmons/Kevin/Cisco/Ron/Corliss lineup in the early 4th which brought us all the way back to be within 2 pts midway through the quarter. It was also Muss who took a gamble on starting Justin Williams in the absence of Brad and Kenny. This was not all bad. On the other hand Muss also showed a marvelously quick hook on Williams even with Chris Wilcox scoring at will inside (admittedly some of that was on Justin), Muss may have stuck with the all 6'7" team too long before finally subbing in an ice cold Bibby at the 3:00 mark. And down the stretch it did not seem like we knew how we wanted to attack anymore, and the Sonics are hardly a team that's hard to attack. Got it within 2, and were just outplayed down the stretch. There was also some idiotic intentional fouling in the final minutes long after the game was over. With us down double figures the whole way, that's just trying to look like you're doing something for your bosses.


Arco ( ) -- pretty disgusting. Team has a five game winning streak, then has a bad half, and its time to boo them. They come out of the timeout and score 5 in a row, time to cheer them again. What a mess. Of course sad to say, it might be working. That's the second time the team has been getting blown out in the third, the boo birds have come out, and the team has responded with a comeback. Lucky it was not me out there. I'd probably find a particularly loud boobird and give him a little wink as I blatantly stepped out of the way of the next guy driving to the hoop. Of course on our team, you wouldn't be able to tell any difference if they did that.
 
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I'm giving him a ZZZZZZ for his powerpoint presentations, his half time speeches, his substitution patterns and his lack of timing for time outs.
 
Musselman made such an amateurish mistake sticking with that all 6'7" lineup way too long. It was clear they were getting tired, but he didn't call timeout or sub anyone in -- they couldn't sustain the run, and sure enough the Sonics held on.

Also, it was pretty sad the way the Kings couldn't beat that zone. Gah.

It's really amazing how much better the team has been lately without Bibby on the floor. He's gone right back to being basically worthless out there, and when he's not on the floor it's addition by subtraction.

Anyone else notice the massive size difference between Wilcox and Justin Williams?

Kevin Martin has scored 20 or more in 8 out of the last 9 games, and during that stretch he's only shot under 50% from the field once (and in that game he still scored 26 points). I'm kind of tired of people saying he's not going to be a superstar -- he's really not very far off at this point. He's still improving, and meanwhile he's already playing like one of the best shooting guards in the league. He's slowly putting together more and more moves and scoring in more ways. If, next season he can create on his own a bit more and start playing better defense he could take the next step.
 
Musselman made such an amateurish mistake sticking with that all 6'7" lineup way too long. It was clear they were getting tired, but he didn't call timeout or sub anyone in -- they couldn't sustain the run, and sure enough the Sonics held on.

Also, it was pretty sad the way the Kings couldn't beat that zone. Gah.

It's really amazing how much better the team has been lately without Bibby on the floor. He's gone right back to being basically worthless out there, and when he's not on the floor it's addition by subtraction.

Anyone else notice the massive size difference between Wilcox and Justin Williams?

Kevin Martin has scored 20 or more in 8 out of the last 9 games, and during that stretch he's only shot under 50% from the field once (and in that game he still scored 26 points). I'm kind of tired of people saying he's not going to be a superstar -- he's really not very far off at this point. He's still improving, and meanwhile he's already playing like one of the best shooting guards in the league. He's slowly putting together more and more moves and scoring in more ways. If, next season he can create on his own a bit more and start playing better defense he could take the next step.

and a different coach
 
Kevin Martin has scored 20 or more in 8 out of the last 9 games, and during that stretch he's only shot under 50% from the field once (and in that game he still scored 26 points). I'm kind of tired of people saying he's not going to be a superstar -- he's really not very far off at this point. He's still improving, and meanwhile he's already playing like one of the best shooting guards in the league. He's slowly putting together more and more moves and scoring in more ways. If, next season he can create on his own a bit more and start playing better defense he could take the next step.

Kevin is really nowhere close unless we stretch "superstar" to include every Tom Dick and Rip Hamilton who can score points.

And really double underlined, bolded, whatever: big scorers who do little else are NOT superstars. Not by a mile. Unless they do a lot more. Scoring is well, selfish is not the right word, but self-oriented. The difference with a superstar is that they take responsibility for the entire game, the team, they warp action all over the court, can step in and out and dominate action almost at will. Maybe 10-15 of those guys in the world at any one time. Kevin is not one of them, or very close, at this point. Not a terrible insult really. But he's not the straw. He might well be the leading scorer. But those aren't always the straws either. Ron is still closer to being a superstar on many nights -- dominating action all over the court, making the whole game about him -- but he just cannot, and IMHO will not ever be able to sustain. Kevin in the other hand would have to entirely rework his entire game to reach that level. Maybe he will. But that rarely if ever happens.

For Kevin, an OG, and not a physical specimen at that,to be a superstar, he literally would have to reach the point where our set was throw the ball to Kevin, and let him create. He would have to do that while his own man set up in a stance, the two nearest defenders cheated over, the tow others turned their heads watching him. Its called Dwayne Wade treatment. 1 on 5, and you have to win (albeit winning with the pass is actually a makr of a superstar caliber OG at least as much as the shot).
 
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Kevin is really nowhere close unless we stretch "superstar" to include every Tom Dick and Rip Hamilton who can score points.

And really double underlined, bolded, whatever: big scorers who do little else are NOT superstars. Not by a mile. Unless they do a lot more. Scoring is well, selfish is not the right word, but self-oriented. The difference with a superstar is that they take responsibility for the entire game, the team, they warp action all over the court, can step in and out and dominate action almost at will. Maybe 10-15 of those guys in the world at any one time. Kevin is not one of them, or very close, at this point. Not a terrible insult really. But he's not the straw. He might well be the leading scorer. But those aren't always the straws either. Ron is still closer to being a superstar on many nights -- dominating action all over the court, making the whole game about him -- but he just cannot, and IMHO will not ever be able to sustain. Kevin in the other hand would have to entirely rework his entire game to reach that level. Maybe he will. But that rarely if ever happens.

21 points does not a superstar make, and I'm not saying he's there yet. But it's not a stretch to think he could kick it up to 25 points or more next season. If that happens he'll be closer. I agree with you about controlling a game, but I still think the potential is there. It's not a sure thing, but he's got the tools and is still putting things together. He's improved a huge amount from last season to this season, and he's improved a huge amount during the season, still scoring at a high clip despite now being the focus of the opposing defense (Seattle's zone was pretty much entirely focused on stopping Kevin).

I'm not saying the team should solely focus on rebuilding around him, and it still may be a stretch, but I also don't know if people should be saying it's not going to happen.
 
Kevin is really nowhere close unless we stretch "superstar" to include every Tom Dick and Rip Hamilton who can score points.

And really double underlined, bolded, whatever: big scorers who do little else are NOT superstars. Not by a mile. Unless they do a lot more. Scoring is well, selfish is not the right word, but self-oriented. The difference with a superstar is that they take responsibility for the entire game, the team, they warp action all over the court, can step in and out and dominate action almost at will. Maybe 10-15 of those guys in the world at any one time. Kevin is not one of them, or very close, at this point. Not a terrible insult really. But he's not the straw. He might well be the leading scorer. But those aren't always the straws either. Ron is still closer to being a superstar on many nights -- dominating action all over the court, making the whole game about him -- but he just cannot, and IMHO will not ever be able to sustain. Kevin in the other hand would have to entirely rework his entire game to reach that level. Maybe he will. But that rarely if ever happens.

For Kevin, an OG, and not a physical specimen at that,to be a superstar, he literally would have to reach the point where our set was throw the ball to Kevin, and let him create. He would have to do that while his own man set up in a stance, the two nearest defenders cheated over, the tow others turned their heads watching him. Its called Dwayne Wade treatment. 1 on 5, and you have to win (albeit winning with the pass is actually a makr of a superstar caliber OG at least as much as the shot).


I've noticed Kevin is starting to create for other guys. He's finding guys with nice passes. I don't think it's insane for people to say he can end up as a star. His overall game is getting better and he's getting better at getting his own shot too. Don't forget that this is only his 3rd year in the league.
 
I think Bricklayer makes some very valid points. I'm not sure Kevin will ever be a superstar. Considering how far he's come already, however, I'm just gonna enjoy the ride while it's happening.
 
I totally agree with Brick here. The best way i describe a superstar is during an off night does that player some how still finds a way to control the the game with the many other attriutts they may bring to the table, From rebounding, passing and so on. From what i have seen Martin has yet to show that and has only reached the level of Rip Hamiton with the abitily to be better.
 
Musselman made such an amateurish mistake sticking with that all 6'7" lineup way too long. It was clear they were getting tired, but he didn't call timeout or sub anyone in -- they couldn't sustain the run, and sure enough the Sonics held on.

Exactly... John Salmons was spent guarding Luke Ridnour for such a long period of time. All 5 guys on the floor were running around like mad men for a huge period of time. The guys out there were clearly exhausted, trying to box out guys bigger than them, and trying to contain guys faster and smaller than them. Add to the fact that the Sonics can shoot three's so well you got guys running the entire half court trying to guard the rim and the three point line. A verry tall task for an entire quarter.

Kevin is not a superstar and I'm pretty sure he never will be. I think however, he can get to the level of a Lamar Odom (not the same player or numbers) but in the sense that he can be a very solid star, not on the superstar level but not on the role-player level either. A very very very solid 2nd option.

As a side note it looks like this whole Bibby thing is going to come to a head fairly soon. He can not continue to get 20 minutes a game. If he doesn't pick up his play he will continue to. I don't know what's going to happen but something is going to be done. Either Bibby is going to pick up his play consistently, or there are going to be problems.
 
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Obviously Kevin is a great shooter, and his game is improving in a number of ways.

The stats, so far this year, though, are a bit disconcerting.

The difference between when he is off the court and when he is on:

When he is on court, we score 107.6 points per 100 possessions, but our opponent scores 109.3... we are losing.

When he is off court, we only score 104.8, but our opponent's score plummets to 99.8 per 100 possessions... we are winning.

When he is on the court, our FG% is 2.5% better, but our opponent's is 6.8% better.

When he is on the court, our rebounding relative to our opponent drops by 1.5%.

All of these things point to his being a weaker defender than the other guys who play SG. Enough weaker that it is going to take a lot more work to make a really well-rounded player out of him.
 
Musselman made such an amateurish mistake sticking with that all 6'7" lineup way too long. It was clear they were getting tired, but he didn't call timeout or sub anyone in -- they couldn't sustain the run, and sure enough the Sonics held on.
I'd be intested in hearing a discussion on who would have been a better option.

Reef looked real old tonight.
Williams looked toddler.
Pot looked overweight and bored.
Price and Hart looked 5'7

I am having trouble seeing other creditable options, however, maybe I am missing something.
 
Obviously Kevin is a great shooter, and his game is improving in a number of ways.

The stats, so far this year, though, are a bit disconcerting.

The difference between when he is off the court and when he is on:

When he is on court, we score 107.6 points per 100 possessions, but our opponent scores 109.3... we are losing.

When he is off court, we only score 104.8, but our opponent's score plummets to 99.8 per 100 possessions... we are winning.

When he is on the court, our FG% is 2.5% better, but our opponent's is 6.8% better.

When he is on the court, our rebounding relative to our opponent drops by 1.5%.

All of these things point to his being a weaker defender than the other guys who play SG. Enough weaker that it is going to take a lot more work to make a really well-rounded player out of him.


Or it could be that he plays when we are losing and the oppenent has their starters in. His back up usually plays in garbage time when the opponent has all their bench players in. Without Kevin we'd have 10 wins all season.
 
I'd be intested in hearing a discussion on who would have been a better option.

Reef looked real old tonight.
Williams looked toddler.
Pot looked overweight and bored.
Price and Hart looked 5'7

I am having trouble seeing other creditable options, however, maybe I am missing something.

Shareef and Bibby -- granted Shareef didn't do a great job of keeping Wilcox contained when he was in, but down the stretch he was a better option than an obviously fatigued Corliss. Bibby did come back in for Garcia, but by then it was too late.
 
Or it could be that he plays when we are losing and the oppenent has their starters in. His back up usually plays in garbage time when the opponent has all their bench players in.

Maybe. If it weren't for Muss' regularly pulling him out of the middle of a game for 15 minutes at a time, I'd think that might explain it. It's probably some of each.
 
Anyone else notice the massive size difference between Wilcox and Justin Williams?

At least he looked big enough to handle Collison, which couldn't be said for the rest of our roster.
capt.sca10202120331.supersonics_kings_basketball_sca102.jpg
 
If Kevin Martin was a baseball player he would be Rafael Palmeiro, but without the juice.

He gets his numbers but he never gives the impression like he dominated any one game.

Thats no knock on him, he is a good player. But thats all.
 
I didn't notice any massive size difference between Wilcox and Williams. :confused: They almost looked about the same to me.

If anything it looked like Justin put on a bit more weight since his last big 5-6 minutes for 3-4 games he got a month or so ago.
 
I didn't notice any massive size difference between Wilcox and Williams. :confused: They almost looked about the same to me.

According to the NBA, they are the same height and Justin is only 5 pounds lighter. I think he just looks smaller because he has that Keon kinda build -- narrow upper body, no shoulders.
 
Obviously Kevin is a great shooter, and his game is improving in a number of ways.

The stats, so far this year, though, are a bit disconcerting.

The difference between when he is off the court and when he is on:

When he is on court, we score 107.6 points per 100 possessions, but our opponent scores 109.3... we are losing.

When he is off court, we only score 104.8, but our opponent's score plummets to 99.8 per 100 possessions... we are winning.

When he is on the court, our FG% is 2.5% better, but our opponent's is 6.8% better.

When he is on the court, our rebounding relative to our opponent drops by 1.5%.

All of these things point to his being a weaker defender than the other guys who play SG. Enough weaker that it is going to take a lot more work to make a really well-rounded player out of him.


If you are going to go through the trouble to do all that you are just crazy...THIS IS THE NBA...And you are talking about a team that is well under .500...If you really think that the team is better off without him please humor me...lets put in there all the bad shots that artest and bibby shoot and see if the numbers change a little bit...Heck if kevin got 4-5 more shots a game right there is anywhere between 6-9 more points. But does he no. He is playing within the offense like he has his whole career as a basketball player. Maybe if there was such thing as a good shot selection for this team their offense of production would be a lot higher.

The thing is that kevin is scoring pretty much on his own besides Brad miller who i am really starting to like...Very Unselfish and he knows his limits...Kinda like Kevin i guess...We dont need 4 scorers on the same team (Bibby, Artest, Miller, Martin). You gotta look at the defensive side of it too...Miller and bibby play no defense as well.
 
I'm giving him a ZZZZZZ for his powerpoint presentations, his half time speeches, his substitution patterns and his lack of timing for time outs.
THANK YOU!! Finally someone besides me gets this! Hey Muss, you'd be great as a replacement for Mike Fratello as the Czar of the Telestrator, but c'mon...enough! I know basketball can be a numbers game, but c'mon, I only got a C in statistics in college, cant you just give an answer that doesnt equate to giving me a headache...because in the end...all of this hasnt and doesnt make a bit of difference: your team still sucks!
 
If you are going to go through the trouble to do all that you are just crazy.

The stats are all here, I didn't have to do anything.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06SAC5D.HTM

My personal opinion is that Kevin, as he is, is probably second only to Artest for total contribution to the team. But I do think that people need a little balance in how they look at him. He is a great shooter, but there isn't anything else he does exceptionally well, and it would be wrong for people to expect him to be our Dwyane Wade or something. More in the continuum between Raja Bell and Michael Redd -- guys who do one thing and do it very well. He's not a superstar, and probably won't ever be. He's a really good player, and there's not a thing wrong with that.

I hope that he continues to improve, and I hope that he stays in Sac for a long time. I just don't expect him to carry the team.
 
The stats are all here, I didn't have to do anything.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06SAC5D.HTM


I hope that he continues to improve, and I hope that he stays in Sac for a long time. I just don't expect him to carry the team.

Im not saying that he is going to carry a/the team. I mean there are too many Veterens on this Sacramento team for a 3rd year standout in the league to try and take over. And I couldnt imagine what Artest, Bibby or Miller would do if they told Kevin that they want him to be there #1 option...But as long as you have vets on this team that are use to scoring i dont see the organization saying that to kevin at all. Lets not forget that when he was the #1 option at western he was teh 2nd leading scorer in the NATION...:D
 
According to the NBA, they are the same height and Justin is only 5 pounds lighter. I think he just looks smaller because he has that Keon kinda build -- narrow upper body, no shoulders.

I sat about 3 feet away from Wilcox on the Sonics bench and he is a big man....not just height wise but he's got a big chest and big shoulders....Justin is just way too skinny and is maybe 6'9" but looks more like 6'8".

I like Corliss and all but he has been given way too many minutes from the coach and his lack of rebounding(overall) husrts us quite a bit..not to mention his missed layups.
 
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