[Grades] Grades v. Sixers 12/26/2016

[The Hammer]

Willie has been developing nicely

Absolutely. It's a great sign not only for him but the fact that we're showing we can develop talent. Willie was massively frustrated last year. Someone is keeping him in a good frame of mind, even though he's not getting a ton of minutes.

One thing that is surprising me about Willie is his court awareness and passing ability, and his bbIQ. He's showing signs of having a great feel for the game, beyond his years, and above what his position requires. Lately he's been in the right spots on offense and defense, makes the timely pass, and is taking the right shots too (for the most part).

 

[HndsmCelt]

Felt like I was watching a bunch of clowns play last night. CSN should have cut Grant and Jerry and just played Benny Hill music all game.

What the hell was Barnes thinking? Team is committing stupid turnover after stupid turnover and Joerger calls a timeout to reel these guys in. Barnes goes to inbound the ball and tries to throw it off of a Sixers back and just turns the ball right back over again. One of the dumbest plays in recent memory.

The song you referenced is named Yakity Sax...just sayin

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Boogie "Embiid has chance to be best big man after I retire."

 

[dude12]

Rudy is talented but I think we could trade him without a letdown. He's opting out...you trade him if a deal is there. But the reason we might not have a letdown in a Gay trade is the emergence of Lawson. He's been outstanding. He gets others good looks, he's being more aggressive with his shot and he scraps and pays tough defense. If we could acquire Payne and ave a PG rotation of Lawson backed up by Payne, I'd be all in there. Collison's defense is verging on poor, he doesn't make others better, and he does not fit a Joerger type of guy at all.

 

[dude12]

Absolutely. It's a great sign not only for him but the fact that we're showing we can develop talent. Willie was massively frustrated last year. Someone is keeping him in a good frame of mind, even though he's not getting a ton of minutes.

One thing that is surprising me about Willie is his court awareness and passing ability, and his bbIQ. He's showing signs of having a great feel for the game, beyond his years, and above what his position requires. Lately he's been in the right spots on offense and defense, makes the timely pass, and is taking the right shots too (for the most part).

This is the great thing about Joerger. If your a young guy, he's going to make you earn every single minute you play. To WCS's credit, he's figured out to stay professional and ready now.

 

[The Hammer]

This is the great thing about Joerger. If your a young guy, he's going to make you earn every single minute you play. To WCS's credit, he's figured out to stay professional and ready now.

And this is what proves Karl was basically using us. He had no interest or ability to manage guys like WCS. You gotta look after them. Not babysit. But you have to provide an envoronment where they feel they can grow and will be rewarded with working on themselves. It was clear WCS felt totally shafted.

And voila. New coach. And all the signs are there that WCS is improving steadily and has the dedication to do so.

We had coaches like Karl (with the exception of Malone), for literally 8 years.

It's a wonder that Cousins survived. Shows just how amazing of a player he really is.

 

[Kingsfan23]

My tolerance was at a breaking point for Collison some games ago...

 

[kingsboi]

And this is what proves Karl was basically using us. He had no interest or ability to manage guys like WCS. You gotta look after them. Not babysit. But you have to provide an envoronment where they feel they can grow and will be rewarded with working on themselves. It was clear WCS felt totally shafted.

And voila. New coach. And all the signs are there that WCS is improving steadily and has the dedication to do so.

We had coaches like Karl (with the exception of Malone), for literally 8 years.

It's a wonder that Cousins survived. Shows just how amazing of a player he really is.

Trill would be doing himself a real disservice if he doesn't at least add a decent mid-range game to his arsenal. His form is there, it's about repetition and not fading when shooting the ball.

 

[The Hammer]

Trill would be doing himself a real disservice if he doesn't at least add a decent mid-range game to his arsenal. His form is there, it's about repetition and not fading when shooting the ball.

I think he will for sure, but it's probably not game-ready yet.

It appears to me he's getting very good coaching, and following it. He appears to be taking time to get the very basics of the game down professionally, and not skipping any steps. You can see him focusing on doing the little things, and not getting ahead of himself. Defensive rotation, not over-committing on D, working an effective pick and roll, no unnecessary fouls. On offense, he's taking a few risks, but it's usually all within 10 feet at this point, which is perfect. It's important for two reasons: 1. you build out your game the right way, and 2. building confidence.

Remember how Cuz's game developed, remember there were times he got out ahead of his skis, then pulled back and worked on the building blocks of his game. Now, he's a great defender, incredibly creative and versatile on offense... but he got there one step at a time. Cuz was not doing dribble drives for his first two years. That was year three. Year four was defense and mid range game. Year 5 was three pt shot. Year 6 is nearly elite three pt shooter, and putting whole package together and playing the mental game. He will be a legit MVP candidate this year (Westbrook probably takes it), but next year Cuz has a real shot.

Willie played a very limited game at Kentucky. But he has shades of Cousins in that he's showing signs of being able to be a fully rounded offensive and defensive player. There's only one Cousins. But there are similarities in how I see them developing.

I fully expect Trill to have an excellent mid range game, maybe even some handles, by year 4.

 

[Blob]

And this is what proves Karl was basically using us. He had no interest or ability to manage guys like WCS. You gotta look after them. Not babysit. But you have to provide an envoronment where they feel they can grow and will be rewarded with working on themselves. It was clear WCS felt totally shafted.

And voila. New coach. And all the signs are there that WCS is improving steadily and has the dedication to do so.

We had coaches like Karl (with the exception of Malone), for literally 8 years.

It's a wonder that Cousins survived. Shows just how amazing of a player he really is.

Wow, nothing personal man, but this is more poor analysis that deserves to be called out. Willie averaged 7 points 5 rebs and 1 block in 21 MPG under Karl. He is averaging 5 points 2 rebs 0.4 blocks under Joerger. How did Karl hold back Willie so egregiously when Willie had embarrassing summer and can't even beat out a center like Koufos for the power forward position?

He would be penciled in as starter projected to 30 MPG 10 PPG 7 RPG and 1.5 BPG if Karl was such a detrimental factor and based on average rate of progress relative to rookie season. Yet his minutes are down from 21 to 12 MPG in a season that traditionally is when future starters or stars made a dramatic leap forward. Willie has regressed and he doesn't Karl around anymore to blame.

Moreover I don't see Willie improving steadily as you contend. He's not getting tough rebounds, drawing charges or making ANY offensive plays that require skill. Its primarily athleticism and being disregarded by the opponent. I guess maybe he's played a little better than lethargic and pathetic like he did a couple of weeks ago, but thats hardly an effusive compliment, and not intended as one.

By the way, I have defended Willie as a guy I think can develop into a heck of a player. But his lack of development is probably the biggest disappointment on team. along with Ben stinking and Affalo being a bust, and one main reason we are three games under .500 instead of over.

 

[The Hammer]

Wow, nothing personal man, but this is more poor analysis that deserves to be called out. Willie averaged 7 points 5 rebs and 1 block in 21 MPG under Karl. He is averaging 5 points 2 rebs 0.4 blocks under Joerger. How did Karl hold back Willie so egregiously when Willie had embarrassing summer and can't even beat out a center like Koufos for the power forward position?

He would be penciled in as starter projected to 30 MPG 10 PPG 7 RPG and 1.5 BPG if Karl was such a detrimental factor and based on average rate of progress relative to rookie season. Yet his minutes are down from 21 to 12 MPG in a season that traditionally is when future starters or stars made a dramatic leap forward. Willie has regressed and he doesn't Karl around anymore to blame.

Moreover I don't see Willie improving steadily as you contend. He's not getting tough rebounds, drawing charges or making ANY offensive plays that require skill. Its primarily athleticism and being disregarded by the opponent. I guess maybe he's played a little better than totally lethargic and pathetic like he did a couple of weeks ago, but thats hardly an effusive compliment, and not intended as one.

By the way, I have defended Willie as a guy I think can develop into a heck of a player. But his lack of development is probably the biggest disappointment on team. along with Ben stinking and Affalo being a bust, and one main reason we are three games under .500 instead of over.

You must have missed the interviews with Willie during the final third of the season. He benched WCS for long stretches of the season. And WCS was unclear as to why. At best, it was poor communication with your rookie. At worst, it's blatant self interest and dereliction of duty knowing that you are about to find a way to get yourself fired and you refuse to develop younger players because you're trying to salvage as many wins as possible to save your reputation, even though the playoffs were long, long gone. It would have been a great time to invest in youth. Not only was WCS getting little playing time, he was not being communicated well with. Your head is in the sand if you think WCS was the only one this was happening to. Karl barely spoke to players in the second half of the season.

It goes way beyond the numbers. I'm looking at the little things. And in fact the numbers being smaller this season kind of prove my point. WCS is playing the game better at the fundamental level despite limited minutes. My point is the whole environment is geared towards long terms success and developing our youth. Karl used us for a big payday and mailed it in basically from day one.

As far as WCS offensive game, you're missing the little things. He had a GREAT give and go moment in the Portland game. It was something he never would have done last year. He's also working a few lob plays much better, in the flow of the offense. It's nothing flashy, and it's not even big numbers. It's being in your spot, learning the game, etc.

 

[kingsboi]

I think he will for sure, but it's probably not game-ready yet.

It appears to me he's getting very good coaching, and following it. He appears to be taking time to get the very basics of the game down professionally, and not skipping any steps. You can see him focusing on doing the little things, and not getting ahead of himself. Defensive rotation, not over-committing on D, working an effective pick and roll, no unnecessary fouls. On offense, he's taking a few risks, but it's usually all within 10 feet at this point, which is perfect. It's important for two reasons: 1. you build out your game the right way, and 2. building confidence.

Remember how Cuz's game developed, remember there were times he got out ahead of his skis, then pulled back and worked on the building blocks of his game. Now, he's a great defender, incredibly creative and versatile on offense... but he got there one step at a time. Cuz was not doing dribble drives for his first two years. That was year three. Year four was defense and mid range game. Year 5 was three pt shot. Year 6 is nearly elite three pt shooter, and putting whole package together and playing the mental game. He will be a legit MVP candidate this year (Westbrook probably takes it), but next year Cuz has a real shot.

Willie played a very limited game at Kentucky. But he has shades of Cousins in that he's showing signs of being able to be a fully rounded offensive and defensive player. There's only one Cousins. But there are similarities in how I see them developing.

I fully expect Trill to have an excellent mid range game, maybe even some handles, by year 4.

I think you are expecting a bit too much out of Trill. I don't see him being able to add decent handles AND a jump shot. I think it will be one or the other and I'm leaning towards the shot. It's also about being patient with your youth and not shipping them out of town after 2-3 unproductive seasons. Some take longer than others, bigs typically take a bit longer to come around. I will be happy and content if he adds a respectable jump shot and boxes out more to give the team second chance opportunities rather than running down the court before the ball is even hitting the rim.

 

[Blob]

You must have missed the interviews with Willie during the final third of the season. He benched WCS for long stretches of the season. And WCS was unclear as to why. At best, it was poor communication with your rookie. At worst, it's blatant self interest and dereliction of duty knowing that you are about to find a way to get yourself fired and you refuse to develop younger players because you're trying to salvage as many wins as possible to save your reputation, even though the playoffs were long, long gone. It would have been a great time to invest in youth. Not only was WCS getting little playing time, he was not being communicated well with. Your head is in the sand if you think WCS was the only one this was happening to. Karl barely spoke to players in the second half of the season.

It goes way beyond the numbers. I'm looking at the little things. And in fact the numbers being smaller this season kind of prove my point. WCS is playing the game better at the fundamental level despite limited minutes. My point is the whole environment is geared towards long terms success and developing our youth. Karl used us for a big payday and mailed it in basically from day one.

As far as WCS offensive game, you're missing the little things. He had a GREAT give and go moment in the Portland game. It was something he never would have done last year. He's also working a few lob plays much better, in the flow of the offense. It's nothing flashy, and it's not even big numbers. It's being in your spot, learning the game, etc.

The great give and go you are referring to was a simple pass in which the cutter (Temple, IIRC) left his man in the dust. It was the obvious pass without pressure on the catcher or the receiver. And compared to this year, last year was LOB CITY, though granted a lot of that was related to pace and timely passes from Rondo.

And again, there's a logical inconsistency to your argument. If Willie was held back by Karl, why he has regressed instead of progressed this year? And before you say Karl did mental damage to WCS in year under his tenure, shredding his confidence and self-belief in one fell swoop, if a player is that fragile, so reliant on external validation to perform, then he was never worthy of the high regard or draft status in the first place.

When Willie starts getting tough rebounds, wicked swats and making offensive plays instead of being the recipient of easy set-ups, then I will give him his due. That hasn't happened yet and its no fault but his own.

 

[The Hammer]

I think you are expecting a bit too much out of Trill. I don't see him being able to add decent handles AND a jump shot. I think it will be one or the other and I'm leaning towards the shot. It's also about being patient with your youth and not shipping them out of town after 2-3 unproductive seasons. Some take longer than others, bigs typically take a bit longer to come around. I will be happy and content if he adds a respectable jump shot and boxes out more to give the team second chance opportunities rather than running down the court before the ball is even hitting the rim.

I do tend to be an optimist when it comes to our own players.

But young players coming out nowadays just don't seem to want to limit their skill set to traditional roles. There will be no more Kevin McHales.

 

[kingsboi]

The great give and go you are referring to was a simple pass in which the cutter (Temple, IIRC) left his man in the dust. It was the obvious pass without pressure on the catcher or the receiver. And compared to this year, last year was LOB CITY, though granted a lot of that was related to pace and timely passes from Rondo.

And again, there's a logical inconsistency to your argument. If Willie was held back by Karl, why he has regressed instead of progressed this year? And before you say Karl did mental damage to WCS in year under his tenure, shredding his confidence and self-belief in one fell swoop, if a player is that fragile, so reliant on external validation to perform, then he was never worthy of the high regard or draft status in the first place.

When Willie starts getting tough rebounds, wicked swats and making offensive plays instead of being the recipient of easy set-ups, then I will give him his due. That hasn't happened yet and its no fault but his own.

I just really hope he doesn't have that fragile Ben McLemore mentality. For all the news we hear about Ben being a gym rat, it's simply not translating on the court. I am remaining optimistic in the mean time and like you...need to see him getting more physical and having a mean streak in him. I figure Boogie would rub off him but that is yet to happen.

 

[kingsboi]

I do tend to be an optimist when it comes to our own players.

But young players coming out nowadays just don't seem to want to limit their skill set to traditional roles. There will be no more Kevin McHales.

Rightfully so. The game is evolving and so should the players. The days of a one trick pony are heading out of town, and fast.

 

[Blob]

I just really hope he doesn't have that fragile Ben McLemore mentality. For all the news we hear about Ben being a gym rat, it's simply not translating on the court. I am remaining optimistic in the mean time and like you...need to see him getting more physical and having a mean streak in him. I figure Boogie would rub off him but that is yet to happen.

There were a few games last year in which he actually showed he could make a 10-15 footer. And he has completely given up on that. Towards the end of last year, unlike what the Hammer was saying, Willie looked like he could develop an offensive arsenal, scoring 21, 26 and 13 points in consecutive games against PHX, DAL and POR, two of three wins. That Willie is MIA, and I don't mean Miami.

Willie did get a look on his face like he meant business went he went for power two hand jam outside the arc, then he went back to look of disinterest and bricked free throw with his crooked form. The problem is that there is no urgency to his game, no desire to assert his will on the game and take chances in order to become great. To be unafraid to fail so he can ultimately excel. Stars and future stars possess this attribute.

IMO Willie doesn't think he's a star or destined to be a star. If he does, he does a good job of concealing this notion. And this is where it would be nice for Boogie to rub off on him, like you said, because Boogie thought he was a star from his first day one, even when the results were mixed and lugging 300 lbs up and down the hardwood.

 

[kingsboi]

There were a few games last year in which he actually showed he could make a 10-15 footer. And he has completely given up on that. Towards the end of last year, unlike what the Hammer was saying, Willie looked like he could develop an offensive arsenal, scoring 21, 26 and 13 points in consecutive games against PHX, DAL and POR, two of three wins. That Willie is MIA, and I don't mean Miami.

Willie did get a look on his face like he meant business went he went for power two hand jam outside the arc, then he went back to look of disinterest and bricked free throw with his crooked form. The problem is that there is no urgency to his game, no desire to assert his will on the game and take chances in order to become great. To be unafraid to fail so he can ultimately excel. Stars and future stars possess this attribute.

IMO Willie doesn't think he's a star or destined to be a star. If he does, he does a good job of concealing this notion. And this is where it would be nice for Boogie to rub off on him, like you said, because Boogie thought he was a star from his first day one, even when the results were mixed and lugging 300 lbs up and down the hardwood.

I don't think it's fair to expect that Willie turns into a star. You said it yourself, he has no urgency and desire to assert himself...he is content with just being out there for the time being. Maybe with time, that will change, or maybe not. It's a much easier pill to swallow if we hope for a high end role player with shot blocking abilities, that would be ideal IMO.

I'd rather my young player go a hundred miles an hour out there, trying to assert his will and impact on the game rather than going through the motions and having inconsistent effort. Because with time, the game will slow down for that young player and then he will make the biggest impact of all.

 

[Blob]

I don't think it's fair to expect that Willie turns into a star. You said it yourself, he has no urgency and desire to assert himself...he is content with just being out there for the time being. Maybe with time, that will change, or maybe not. It's a much easier pill to swallow if we hope for a high end role player with shot blocking abilities, that would be ideal IMO.

I'd rather my young player go a hundred miles an hour out there, trying to assert his will and impact on the game rather than going through the motions and having inconsistent effort. Because with time, the game will slow down for that young player and then he will make the biggest impact of all.

Or we could've drafted Myles Turner and we'd be having an entirely different conversation. But I am on the same page with you, more or less, discouraged but hopeful its not completely hopeless. Haha, I guess that's not the most optimistic sentiment, but that's where I am at with this kid. When Tolliver had a couple of good games recently, I think he made more of an impact in a victory than Willie has at any time this year. That's say something about how ineffective Willie has been since Tolliver has been DNP-CD about half the season.

I guess to end on a more positive note, we saw Tolliver go from bench warmer to valuable role player. We saw Lawson go from non-scorer to a guy who can put the ball in the hoop, and Temple from decent to one of the three most consistent players on the team. So perhaps things can change for the better for Willie too.

 

[kingsboi]

Or we could've drafted Myles Turner and we'd be having an entirely different conversation. But I am on the same page with you, more or less, discouraged but hopeful its not completely hopeless. Haha, I guess that's not the most optimistic sentiment, but that's where I am at with this kid.
When Tolliver had a couple of good games recently, I think he made more of an impact in a victory than Willie has at any time this year. That's say something about how ineffective Willie has been since Tolliver has been DNP-CD about half the season.

I guess to end on a more positive note, we saw Tolliver go from bench warmer to valuable role player. We saw Lawson go from non-scorer to a guy who can put the ball in the hoop, and Temple from decent to one of the three most consistent players on the team. So perhaps things can change for the better for Willie too.

Goes to show you just how prepared you have to be to enter a game, you never know when coach will call your number. Willie can learn a lot from Tolliver, Lawson & Temple just based on always coming to play, no matter the circumstances. Not hanging your head when things don't go your way and make an impact in a way that you can control and that is with defense, length and disrupting what the other team wants to do on the offensive end.

 

[Joshoua]

I don't take anyone serious who says we should have drafted Myles Turner.

 

[Blob]

Goes to show you just how prepared you have to be to enter a game, you never know when coach will call your number. Willie can learn a lot from Tolliver, Lawson & Temple just based on always coming to play, no matter the circumstances. Not hanging your head when things don't go your way and make an impact in a way that you can control and that is with defense, length and disrupting what the other team wants to do on the offensive end.

It may sound crazy, but I think Vivek should insist Ben and Willie go to a qualified hypnotherapist with Ben hypnotized and subconsciously induced into thinking he is Ray Allen, Michael Jordan and Kobe in their prime. Hey, it couldn't hurt! Desperate times called for desperate measures! This is contract year for this kid and the only contract he is earning so far is with the Beijing Pikachews. Willie needs hypnosis too, apparently to undue the deep psychological damage by the nefarious George Karl. And while he's under, the hypnotist should let him know its okay to shoot (and make) a 15 footer. But seriously, both of these guys have mental blocks, so I think there is more to their struggles than copying teammates. Their issues run deeper.

 

[Blob]

I don't take anyone serious who says we should have drafted Myles Turner.

I don't take anyone serious who says he doesn't take anyone who says we should have drafted Myles Turner serious.

 

[nebs]

I don't take anyone serious.

 

[ESP47]

McLemore doesn't have a mental block. He has a talent block. He's extremely athletic without the ball and about as athletic as Shawn Bradley as soon as the ball is in his hands. Couple that with a low basketball IQ and the guy basically can't do much other than spot shoot after someone else makes a play to get him open.

Everyone always thinks the guy needs to toughen up but most players aren't really considered tough. It's just most shooting guards can handle the ball at least somewhat respectably. Basically everyone on the team other than Kofous could drive from the 3pt line and finish at the hoop with a higher efficiency than BMac. His problem is he can't handle the ball well enough to get to the hoop and in the off chance that he actually gets there, he can't finish either because he has no touch around the basket. So basically he's almost strictly jump shooting which is why he will never be an efficient player.

 

[upinsmoke]

Why so serious?