[Grades] Grades v. Raptors 12/2/2014

[Chubbs]

Somebody talk to me about Landry BTW. What the hell happened there?

I've tried to bring him up in the barrage of "banish Ramon to the depths of hell" notes but no one seems to care we have a washed up player on year 2 of a 4 year deal horribly miscast as a backup center.

So, remember NBA 3.0 positionless basketball. This is it. There isn't a big. And if they stubbornly stick to this path, there won't be one. What we are seeing was what I understood the plan to be.

 

[Bricklayer]

U

They also had 15 tries to do it. We've had 3 against 3 of the best teams in the NBA.

The 0-16 don't mean squat. Brick can post NO, Portland records all he wants without their stars, but those teams were FAR above anything we had the previous two seasons. We stunk with DeMarcus the past 2 years, so of course we had very little opportunity to win games without him. Sans DeMarcus and a full year of IT and Rudy, that roster probably doesn't get to 20 wins last season.

But we're a different team this year. We're deeper, vet experienced, more people to rely on. We could have gone 0-3 in this stretch with DeMarcus and I wouldn't be overly disappointed. It's really difficult to beat top tier teams and you have to play mistake free basketball. We aren't there yet as a roster, although taken significant strides.

Updating NBA.com Power Rankings' little stat:

In our 18 games THIS season, our team has outscored its opponents without Cousins on the floor in only 2 (TWO) of them. 2. We're 0-3 with no Cuz at all. And the rest of the team is 2-13 in the games we DO have Cuz (meaning that at a bare minimum his presence has been worth 7 of our 9 wins).

Oh, another little tidbit -- all 11 games Cousins missed last year? Home games. All 11. 2 of the 3 this year? Home Games. Too lazy to check the games 2 years ago. But basically we have gone 0-13 on our home floor in the last two seasons without Cousins. We're 21-15 over that span with him available on our home floor.

There really is no excuse for it. If we were Philly there'd barely be an excuse for it. I think what it exposes is a terrible lack of extra capacity that is going to make it tough for us to really ignite. Back in the golden era one of the definitive traits of that team is that we had a lot of extra capacity. Those were extremely talented teams, and basically we all sorts of talented personnel operating at less than 100% capacity in order to fit in with the whole. But if we lost a guy, we always had plenty of 10ppg scorers who were actually natural 15ppg scorers who could easily step up. Plenty of 20min a night guys who were fully capable of being 30min a night guys. Guys who could take over various roles, extra defenders, extra passers, extra shooters, you name it.

But this current team doesn't have that. Its running at near capacity even when Cuz is out there. There is no extra gear for much of our personnel. Rudy doesn't suddenly average 25, Collison isn't suddenly a 20ppg guy, we don't have spare shooters, or passers, or any of it. So you tear out a player of Cousins' stature and we simply don't have guys who can smoothly stretch out their limbs and say "got this". Maybe even more on defense. Cuz goes out and its instantly a scramble for us trying to piece something together. One night we get a little more form one piece, the next night another, but nothing that can be relied upon. It would be something approaching luck to get enough guys randomly stepping up in the same game to pull one out. Perils of your best offensive player, defensive player and rebounder all being the same guy. He leaves and holes open up all over the ship.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Reggie got his hands on a couple of defensive boards in the 4th, but did fumble the ball or got it slapped away. Don't think JT would have made that much of a difference. With Rudy being doubled all the time, putting JT out there, would have destroyed all of our offensive momentum. Without Cousins this team is just not good enough, to win versus one of the best teams in the east. There is nothing Malon can do about that.

 

[dude12]

You've essentially repeated the same complaint all night. So knowing the players we have, what lineups would you have utilized? If you can't answer intelligently, maybe it's time to call it a night.

Seriously good post......best of the night

 

[Albatros]

Quick hide those threads praising Coach Malone and PDA! They were so 3 games ago.

 

[King Baller]

Quick hide those threads praising Coach Malone and PDA! They were so 3 games ago.

What do those 3 games have in common.........

 

[ppine]

I only saw part of this game. The Kings played pretty well, but the Raptors are tough. The Kings really miss Cousin's rebounding as he has become the leading rebounder in the NBA. He deserves credit for that because it is all about hard work and desire. In order for the Kings to beat Toronto they just need to play better team defense. By inference, it suggests that Cousins interior defense has improved. There is no doubt about that and he even is starting to get some blocks.

If the Kings continue to turn the ball over more than their opponents, that has to be overcome by outrebounding them. Without Cousins, the Kings have a hard time doing that.

 

[kingsfan1984]

If Cousins stays healthy we can sweep the rest of December

 

[Kingster]

When you look at the structure of this team you see one that has a very good starting lineup when they are all healthy and functioning at maximum efficiency. (See the SI info presented during last night's pregrame; the Kings were second in the league.) The team is highly complementary to Cousins' skills. Which also means that when Cousins is out of the lineup they fall flat on their face. (See Brick's post on the records of other teams records without their #1 star). His strengths mask their weaknesses. In one area in particular their weaknesses are pronounced with Cousins out of the game - getting their own shot. Cousins gets his own shot, and he is magnet on the floor, drawing defenders to his vicinity so that those without great playmaking/shotmaking skills can have the space to operate.

I disagree that we need a third star. We need a second star. A star is a guy who can carry the team. We have nobody that can carry this team to victory when Cousins is out. Gay is a third wheel. A good third wheel. But still the third wheel. If, say, Durant is out, then Westbrook can carry the Thunder, or vice-versa. Those guys are stars.

I agree with gunks - PDA better not rest on his laurels. If you can count on Cousins never getting injured or ill, then fine, you can add a couple of good bench guys and you're ready to go. But I wouldn't feel safe with the assumption that Cousins is going to be in 95% of the games. If he was out for a few months, this team would have a top 5 lottery pick.

I still have hope D-Will can be traded for something of value by the trade deadline. A serviceable point guard or backup center would be nice.

 

[twslam07]

I disagree that we need a third star. We need a second star. A star is a guy who can carry the team. We have nobody that can carry this team to victory when Cousins is out. Gay is a third wheel. A good third wheel. But still the third wheel. If, say, Durant is out, then Westbrook can carry the Thunder, or vice-versa. Those guys are stars.

I still think Westbrook can be a number 1 option on a very good team. The Thunder are fortunate that they have two players like Durant and Westbrook locked up, but just because Gay isn't as good as Westbrook doesn't mean he isn't a legit second wheel or that we keep looking until we find a second wheel as good as Westbrook.

Are there second options on other teams that are better than Gay? Yes. Are there second options on other teams that are worse than Gay? Yes.

When looking at the second options of teams that are either at or above .500 (threw in the Thunder as well), Gay has the third highest PPG of anyone (list below).

1. Westbrook - 23.3
2. Irving - 21.5
3. Gay - 21.1
4. K. Thompson - 20.9
5. Wade - 20.5
6. P. Gasol - 20.0
7. Lillard - 19.7
8. Nowitzki - 19.6
9. DeRozan - 19.4
10. Howard - 18.8

Not to mention he is doing it at an efficient clip 46%/34%/87%.

Now I know scoring is not everything when we're talking about second options, but Gay is not only a scorer. He's been effective at finding people and creating looks for his teammates. Out of all the second options that belong to the .500 or better teams, Gay ranks third in assists if you remove PGs (Wade & Evans are the only two that are averaging more this season). We've all seen Gay being doubled from time to time (hell he was doubled a handful of times last night). His scoring ability does require attention. Not as much as Cousins, but the defense is still drawn towards him.

Just really stop and think about the second options out there and ask yourself who would you rather have than Gay (full list of second options for .500 or better teams below)?

1. DeRozan
2. Gortat
3. Millsap
4. P. Gasol
5. Irving
6. Wade
7. J. Parker
8. Randolph
9. K. Thompson
10. Lillard
11. Howard
12. Leonard
13. Nowtizki
14. Paul
15. Bledsoe
16. Afflalo
17. Evans
18. Westbrook

Personally, if I had Cousins as the only player on my team, these are the players I would take over Gay: Paul (and that's if they didn't hate each other) & Westbrook with Lillard as a borderline maybe. That's it for me.

So when I see people saying Gay is not a second wheel, it makes me wonder who they think is better and who they think is better that we can possibly get. And with Cousins emerging as one of the best go-to options in the league, it gives you a little more leeway with the players around him . However, Gay is proving to be a legitimate second wheel in this league.

As far as why we struggle with Cousins out....

We are a 8th seed contending team. We'll be fighting for that final playoff spot and likely fall in the 9-10 range. That should be an easy indicator that this team and roster is not done. We still have holes that need to be filled before we leap into contention talks. Once the roster is complete and we have consistent and complimentary pieces all around, I'm sure if Cousins were to go down we would remain competitive and win games.

Cousins' talent hides/patches a lot of the weaknesses of this team when he plays. When he doesn't, those weakness are on full display. If you continue to round out the roster and take care of those weaknesses with moves and transactions, you won't see such a steep dropoff in the level of play when Cousins is sitting on the bench.

 

[Entity]

Rudy also averaging over 6 reb and over 4 assist as well. Klay Thompson less on both those numbers as well. BUT

3pt shooting is a big time need for us right now. Its what is hurting us the most.

 

[The_Jamal]

Another way to look at it is this:

If we had a top of the line back-up C, (so Kosta Koufos, Gobert, Zeller, Biyombo) sort of player, does that change the result of any of these 3 games? It probably makes us more competitive in each game, but I don't see the results changing in any of the games. And that's if we get our hands on the best of the best back-ups who could probably fringe start on a few teams.

 

[twslam07]

Another way to look at it is this:

If we had a top of the line back-up C, (so Kosta Koufos, Gobert, Zeller, Biyombo) sort of player, does that change the result of any of these 3 games? It probably makes us more competitive in each game, but I don't see the results changing in any of the games. And that's if we get our hands on the best of the best back-ups who could probably fringe start on a few teams.

It's all subjective if we would have won those games with a legitmate backup center, but when Cousins is injured/sick, the biggest hole/biggest weakness on our roster is the center position. When Cousins is playing, our biggest hole/biggest weakness lies elsewhere. I think when building a team, you start by focusing on your biggest needs assuming everyone is in good health. Once you have accomplished such a task, you can turn your head towards adding depth, roleplayers, consistent veterans, etc.

Basically, once you get your core roster set in stone, grabbing luxury/nice to haves like a good backup center is next on the list. I would rather add a better, shotblocking compliment to Cousins before going after a backup center, but as we continue down the path of converting this team to a contender, the backup center position will have to be addressed at some point.

 

[kingsnation]

So this game taught us 3 things.

1. Kings are not nearly as good without Demarcus Cousins in the lineup. But what team is as good without their star?
2. They do not have an NBA Caliber backup big to sub for either Cuz or JT. Landry is too small and Evans has limited skills. Coach wont even play Hollins.
   
3. Kings do not have an NBA caliber backup guard who can run the point. Sessions is not getting the job done. Really its his defense that is killing us

I'd argue that this season has taught us those 3 things.

 

[kingsnation]

It's all subjective if we would have won those games with a legitmate backup center, but when Cousins is out, the biggest hole/biggest weakness on our roster is the center position. When Cousins is playing, our biggest hole/biggest weakness lies elsewhere. I think when building a team, you start by focusing on your biggest needs assuming everyone is in good health. Once you have accomplished such a task, you can turn your head towards adding depth, roleplayers, consistent veterans, etc.

Basically, once you get your core roster set in stone, grabbing luxury/nice to haves like a good backup center is next on the list. I would rather add a better, shotblocking compliment to Cousins before going after a backup center, but as we continue down the path of converting this team to a contender, the backup center position will have to be addressed at some point.

However, the problem is that even when Cuz is healthy, he has a habit of getting into foul trouble. When he goes to the bench, our glaring problem of not having a true, competent backup C becomes a major issue. There is no good reason why that problem can't or shouldn't be addressed right now.

 

[Padrino]

Another way to look at it is this:

If we had a top of the line back-up C, (so Kosta Koufos, Gobert, Zeller, Biyombo) sort of player, does that change the result of any of these 3 games? It probably makes us more competitive in each game, but I don't see the results changing in any of the games. And that's if we get our hands on the best of the best back-ups who could probably fringe start on a few teams.

i don't know if it changes the result of the games the kings have lost without cousins, but it's important that the kings acquire some additional size for their bench, instead of continuing to trot out undersized players/lineups when there is a clear need for some level of rim protection.

 

[Spike]

See the Spurs the year David Robinson got hurt, they went from being in the WCF to winning only 20 games. Of course, they then went on to draft Tim Duncan with their subsequent high draft pick and the rest is history.

So you're saying we've got a plan...

 

[Tetsujin]

So you're saying we've got a plan...

All I'm saying is that a Demarcus/Towns frontline would be the most skilled frontcourt in the league.

A Mudiay/Ben backcourt would also be fun to watch.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I disagree that we need a third star. We need a second star. A star is a guy who can carry the team. We have nobody that can carry this team to victory when Cousins is out. Gay is a third wheel. A good third wheel. But still the third wheel. If, say, Durant is out, then Westbrook can carry the Thunder, or vice-versa. Those guys are stars.

Your first paragraph was good, this one, not so much. I think your premise in the quoted paragraph is faulty: it's not that Gay is not a legit second option; rather, it has more to do with how the team is built. The Oklahoma City comparison doesn't hold water because Durant and Westbrook have, essentially, the same skill set. If one of them are out, the other one simply takes more shots, and the role players aren't required to do anything different. The Kings more closely resemble Iverson's Sixers: our role players' skill sets are uniquely suited to compliment what Cousins can do, as is Gay. That doesn't mean that Gay is solely a complimentary player, what it means is that our role players don't really compliment what Gay can do. What we need is to retool the roster so that we don't have so many limited role players; guys who can only be effective as a function of DeMarcus Cousins.

We also need a third guy who can keep the offense and/or the defense from being too distorted when Cousins is out of the game. And I've got news for you, that guy is going to be the third option. There is no player in the league, who is actually available to the Kings, that is better than Gay. Nobody. But that's not a real problem; the problem is going to be replacing guys like Thompson and Williams and Sessions and Evans with players who have the ability to play more than one way. I mean, Thompson can probably stay as a full time backup, but those other guys have to be moved for us to evolve. You can't play 'positionless' basketball when you have a team of guys that can only do one thing each.

 

[macadocious]

Your first paragraph was good, this one, not so much. I think your premise in the quoted paragraph is faulty: it's not that Gay is not a legit second option; rather, it has more to do with how the team is built. The Oklahoma City comparison doesn't hold water because Durant and Westbrook have, essentially, the same skill set. If one of them are out, the other one simply takes more shots, and the role players aren't required to do anything different. The Kings more closely resemble Iverson's Sixers: our role players' skill sets are uniquely suited to compliment what Cousins can do, as is Gay. That doesn't mean that Gay is solely a complimentary player, what it means is that our role players don't really compliment what Gay can do. What we need is to retool the roster so that we don't have so many limited role players; guys who can only be effective as a function of DeMarcus Cousins.

We also need a third guy who can keep the offense and/or the defense from being too distorted when Cousins is out of the game. And I've got news for you, that guy is going to be the third option. There is no player in the league, who is actually available to the Kings, that is better than Gay. Nobody. But that's not a real problem; the problem is going to be replacing guys like Thompson and Williams and Sessions and Evans with players who have the ability to play more than one way. I mean, Thompson can probably stay as a full time backup, but those other guys have to be moved for us to evolve. You can't play 'positionless' basketball when you have a team of guys that can only do one thing each.

This post is perfect.

This is also the quandary we are in. Who can we possibly trade for the fits that 3rd bill, which is most likely a PF who can defend, shoot a bit and rebound. I don't see that player available to us with what we can offer.

 

[twslam07]

This post is perfect.

This is also the quandary we are in. Who can we possibly trade for the fits that 3rd bill, which is most likely a PF who can defend, shoot a bit and rebound. I don't see that player available to us with what we can offer.

I'm not so sure it is a guy we trade for.

McLemore seems to be developing into a Peja esque player who can be a good scorer, but can do so without being ball dominant. If he get's anywhere near Peja's level, he's easily a third option type guy. However, we'll still need someone off the bench who can handle the ball and score when Gay and Cousins are taking a breather. To me, Stauskas can become this player. I've pegged him as a Ginobli esque player coming out of college. Good size, smart player, deceptive quickness, great shooter, good ball handler, good passer, good in the pick n roll... These are all skills he showed in college. If both of our SGs develop and reach their potential, you'll have your 3rd option/off the ball/sharpshooter (McLemore) and your sixth man/4th option (Stauskas) who can take on a lot of the ball handling duties in the second unit and provide some scoring and playmaking

Of course, both players still have a long ways to go, but you can see how these two could fit into the grand scheme of things and help us push the team to the next level. Obviously, if you can sign a veteran/third option with the cap space we have in the next year or two, you do it, but it's exciting to think about how good this team could be if these two develop and reach their potential.

 

[fansinceday1]

Wonder what kind of crazy illness DeMarcus has that has stuck around for almost a week now

KHTK just said boogie is out for Friday and Saturday because of a bad viral infection.

 

[macadocious]

I'm not so sure it is a guy we trade for.

McLemore seems to be developing into a Peja esque player who can be a good scorer, but can do so without being ball dominant. If he get's anywhere near Peja's level, he's easily a third option type guy. However, we'll still need someone off the bench who can handle the ball and score when Gay and Cousins are taking a breather. To me, Stauskas can become this player. I've pegged him as a Ginobli esque player coming out of college. Good size, smart player, deceptive quickness, great shooter, good ball handler, good passer, good in the pick n roll... These are all skills he showed in college. If both of our SGs develop and reach their potential, you'll have your 3rd option/off the ball/sharpshooter (McLemore) and your sixth man/4th option (Stauskas) who can take on a lot of the ball handling duties in the second unit and provide some scoring and playmaking

Of course, both players still have a long ways to go, but you can see how these two could fit into the grand scheme of things and help us push the team to the next level. Obviously, if you can sign a veteran/third option with the cap space we have in the next year or two, you do it, but it's exciting to think about how good this team could be if these two develop and reach their potential.

I agree with you, for the future. I meant, right now. Who can we go get today (or by the trade dealing at the latest) with our assets (without blowing up our core and future: Cuz, Gay, Ben, Collison, Stauskas...maybe JT (probably have to keep Evans and Cassipi as well))


I think it has to be a big.

 

[IfAt1st]

Unfortunately, I fear this game reveals that this team has simply too many holes to likely be a playoff team this year.

 

[Spike]

KHTK just said boogie is out for Friday and Saturday because of a bad viral infection.

No one enjoys the craps. No one.

 

[twslam07]

I agree with you, for the future. I meant, right now. Who can we go get today (or by the trade dealing at the latest) with our assets (without blowing up our core and future: Cuz, Gay, Ben, Collison, Stauskas...maybe JT (probably have to keep Evans and Cassipi as well))


I think it has to be a big.

Ah gotcha.

To another point, it might make sense to be patient. The West is an absolute beast right now. Does it make sense to almost avoid these youth for vet trades in an attempt to "wait out" the conference? We'll still be competing night in and night out and slowly inching our way up in the standings each year as players progress, chemistry, builds, talent adds, etc., but in 2-3 years, hopefully the east and west balance out somewhat making it easier to progress through the west. At this 2-3 year timeline, many of your young guys will start hitting their stride and entering their prime just in time to make that deep playoff push.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of trading our non-youth for more win talent pieces or outright signing win now pieces, but I see our youth as an opportunity to blossom at that right moment.

 

[206Fan]

All I'm saying is that a Demarcus/Towns frontline would be the most skilled frontcourt in the league.

A Mudiay/Ben backcourt would also be fun to watch.

I see what you're saying, but we should NOT by any means go back to a losing record or even think about tanking. Don't you get tired of being in the lottery year and year out? The only way we get a pick in this years draft is if we trade Nik for it. I don't think it would've been such a terrible idea to give away 2014's pick to keep our 2013 pick. The SGs in 2015 will be much better....especially the 2 guards at Michigan. No offense to Nik...

 

[VF21]

I see what you're saying, but we should NOT by any means go back to a losing record or even think about tanking. Don't you get tired of being in the lottery year and year out? The only way we get a pick in this years draft is if we trade Nik for it. I don't think it would've been such a terrible idea to give away 2014's pick to keep our 2013 pick. The SGs in 2015 will be much better....especially the 2 guards at Michigan. No offense to Nik...

Oh lord...

Nobody here is talking about tanking. If you look back in some of the old threads, this has been done to death over the years.

 

[206Fan]

Oh lord...

Nobody here is talking about tanking. If you look back in some of the old threads, this has been done to death over the years.

I know that... but if you're talking about Towns or Muiday.... that's tanking! . I want the team to go as far away from the draft as possible.

 

[kingsboi]

See the Spurs the year David Robinson got hurt, they went from being in the WCF to winning only 20 games. Of course, they then went on to draft Tim Duncan with their subsequent high draft pick and the rest is history.

They won games still...not many...the Kings are 0-16 I believe without Boogie. Could we possibly reach 15 wins without him for an entire season? well that sure wouldn't be fun speculation.