Grades v. Pacers 01/03

Predict when will the Kings win the big #9?

  • Jan 5th at New Jersey

    Votes: 15 17.9%
  • Jan 6th at Chicago

    Votes: 15 17.9%
  • Jan 9th vs Miami

    Votes: 6 7.1%
  • Jan 11th vs Dallas

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Jan 13th vs Orlando

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • We will never win again.

    Votes: 46 54.8%

  • Total voters
    84
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1
8-26!

I thought just for kicks of having a Kings player of the game poll, then thought for even bigger kicks of having a Kings defender of the game poll.


Cisco ( B- ) -- in quick foul trouble again, which worked out just fine with Kevin going off. Only managed to survive 5 minutes of the first half. Was actually able to play after half, which included stints at "PF" when both teams slipped into some of those smallball junk lineups that its funny to remember were so in vogue only a couple of years back. Kind of like disco balls. Made solid all around contributions on offense, joined our three party (season high for us as a team), and came up with a timely block in transition. Also got lit up like a pinball machine by Granger, who was negating much of Kevin's big night by pumping in 35 of his own. In any case, when two bad teams get together and just to decide to run up and down the floor without any defense rather than play basketball, everybody's numbers get inflated.

Moore ( D ) -- Albert Einstein once said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. He could have included a wood carving of Mikki Moore coming out onto the court in the starting lineup as an illustration. Gave us next to nothing in the first quarter as both Murphy and Hibbert abused him. "Earned" 21 first half minutes, because you know that 3pts 0reb 1ast and 3fls is hard to come by in this league. Got off to the monstrous start to the third with a board and a hoop, but was quickly pulled (for a mistake? Crappy defense? 5 fouls? Not sure.) and Thompson was in. Our starting PF finished the night with, get this, 5pts (2-6 FG) 1reb 1ast 1blk 5fls in 28min. You will find one of our posters arguing down below that throwing our crappy vets out on the court to lose game after game just has to be on orders from above to try to pump their trade value so we can dump them (although with our guys the less you see maybe the better). Everybody has to hope and pray that is the case, because the other option is that Natt has the I.Q. of a cheeseburger.

Miller ( B ) -- easy offensive start continuing over the strong play from Frday against the weak Pacers' frontline, more jumeprs/drives, and back on the glass. Offense slowed down after half, but was able to find guys consistently with the passing against some really crappy defense. Didn't actually slow down a very slowable downable Pacers center corps, but got enough of his, and helped Kevin get enough of his, to win the battle here.

Salmons ( C ) -- canned three threes in the first quarter off to the hot start, but that was about the extent of his contributions as he wasn't passing, on the glass, playing defense, or hitting from anywhere else. Took a back seat while Kevin drove for a while, and only reemerged late in the game to help us choke off another one with some of his patented forced drives into traffic. The Pacers were running two PGs much of the night, and John's defense did little enough to slow either (not that Jarret Jack is going to light anybody up). May have been laboring a bit on the back to back, or may just again have been displaying his career long difficulty in performing when somebody else is going well and gettign the majority of the shots.

Udrih ( C ) -- in foul trouble almost as quick as Cisco and didn't even get 6 first half minutes. Shot was on, but was played much of the night off the ball. And the "much of the night" consisted of a grand total of 12 minutes as we got even older in this loss with BJax playing so well and taking over at PG.

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BJax ( A ) -- extremely effective first half performance in relief of the foul troubled Beno, although offensively at least a lot of it was taking advantage of inexperienced opponents and whistle happy refs. But also climbed all over the glass (had 6 by half) and did a solid job passing in the up and down game. Did not slow down after half, when he ended up stealing most of Beno's minutes (and all of Brown's minutes) and was consistently outhustling and outmuscling T.J. Ford all over the court. I pondered whether to straight A this or not, given the desire to seperate all grades from the next one, but fact is that this is just about the best that Bobby can do. It was back to the 6'1" PF days with 15pts 10rebs (led team) 5ast 0TOs...just what more can you ask from the old man?

Martin ( A+ ) -- well golly gee wilikers...I wonder where I should go with this grade? Came in and finally shook the return to action cobwebs out in a free flowing first half that was played almost entirely without defense. Not, mind you, that any defense was going to be allowed by the tweet happy refs. Kevin was feeling it, and ran up and down the floor getting whatever he wanted wherever he wanted, and even pausing long enough to set up teammates as well. Had a handful of tough takes, a whole bunch of wide open looks, and completely ignored Marquis Daniels, who got so scared of the outside bombs (a career high 7 threes) that he was leaving his feet on the slightest upfake. In 17 first half minutes, had a full 48 min of stats: 25pts 5ast. And carried it right over after half on his way to setting a Sacto record for points off the bench (obviously a technicality in Kevin's case). The one failing came late, when Kevin, being a King, came up small in the clutch, missing our last three shots of the game. The first a badly forced three that was apparently drawn up out of the timeout with 22 seconds to go and us down three -- no idea why, we could have just gone for the two and then intentionally foul game. In any case, everyone thought he would take it, they were all waitng, and he chucked up a prayer. But we got the rebound back and Kevin slid off into the corner where the Pacers had lost track of him for brick #2 -- a wide open corner three that he had hit several times already on the night. Then after the Pacers came back down for some more points, it was Kevin with a tough bricked layup to put the nail in. Bad ending, but still not enough to knock the "+" off of this. In a lost season, going off for huge numbers against a bad team in a loss still counts as outstanding, and Kevin (with a little help from Bobby) was the entire reason we were even in position to get this one toward the end.

Thompson ( C ) -- looked more in control in the first half, but not necessarily having as much impact as he had with the wild stuff yesterday. Had some problems on defense against guys -- Hibbert, Nesterovic -- who you really shouldn't have problems on defense against. And got himself into foul toruble that limited his minutes. Did get some low blocks but not hsi best effor ton the glass, shot poorly, and had his usual turnover problems.

Brown ( D ) -- too young to get much PT in the first half, and when he did he was surprisingly quiet given the pace, while mostly just staying out of Kevin's way. Did so little he did not even touch the floor after half as you see Natt really does practice tough love in regards to minutes...unless of course you are as old as dirt in which case you get carte blanche.
 
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#5
I voted "We will never win again."

It's actually funny, I was looking at the schedule after this loss and before seeing this post to see where I thought we could win our next game.
The next two teams we face that I think we could beat in the near future are Golden State and Washington. However, both of those games for the Kings are the 2nd game of a back-to-back.
In the Golden State game, we are away and have to travel from Orlando to Oakland.
In the Washington game, we are at home, but have to play the night before in Denver, so I think winning either of those games get a lot harder, especially if Natt plays the Vets 35+ in the previous game.

All the rest of the 'easy' teams we face are on the road, and so the game I'm looking at and actually expecting us to win is against the Oklahoma City Thunder. We play them at home and it isn't the 2nd night of a back to back.

Of course, we could end up winning a few before that period of time, but it isn't until we play the Thunder on February 1st, that I see what should be a sure-fire win.

And if we do actually get to that point with-out another win and playing our Vets 35+ minutes a night, I would hope that with such an abysmal record we would be working more towards our future by playing our Future more. Spencer & JT with 25+ minutes a night, and Donte & B.Brown 15+ minutes a night would be fantastic to see.
 
#6
On an entirely different note, I really think that Petrie is shopping both Miller and Salmons heavily.
I'm basing this on the minutes he's having both of these guys play, especially since the Boston Massacre.
Salmons: 38, 39, 39
Miller: 38, 39, 37

Now, with Kevin back I would have expected Salmon's numbers to go down, but instead they have increased.
With Spencer out, you would think that Brad's minutes might go up a little bit, but they are far higher than they should be.

They are both putting up good numbers and it could be that they know that they are auditioning for other teams, and in order to get shipped out to a better situation are trying to put up as good of numbers as possible.

If Petrie really is trying heavily to shop these two, then it's just a fantastic sign for our team and progress for the future. Salmon's numbers have been great, and for Petrie to recognize that it's doubtful that Salmons will be able to play at this level when we need him to, and to therefore get a good piece for the future is what I think most of us have been wanting to see. For Brad, he's put up great numbers the last few days, but Spencer is the future for us at Center, so clearing that spot and perhaps getting some cap-relief/kids/picks would be ideal.

Of course, it could be entirely wishful thinking on my part, seeing what I want to see. This could be how I'm coping with seeing constant DNP next to Donte's name, and JT with 10-12 less minutes played compared to Brad while Spencer is out.
But with the amount of minutes these two are getting, as well as their good play, I can't but think they've been told to really put it out on the line so that Petrie can convince a playoff team to take a shot on them.

Here's to wishful thinking...
 
#7
On an entirely different note, I really think that Petrie is shopping both Miller and Salmons heavily.
I'm basing this on the minutes he's having both of these guys play, especially since the Boston Massacre.
Salmons: 38, 39, 39
Miller: 38, 39, 37

Now, with Kevin back I would have expected Salmon's numbers to go down, but instead they have increased.
With Spencer out, you would think that Brad's minutes might go up a little bit, but they are far higher than they should be.

They are both putting up good numbers and it could be that they know that they are auditioning for other teams, and in order to get shipped out to a better situation are trying to put up as good of numbers as possible.

If Petrie really is trying heavily to shop these two, then it's just a fantastic sign for our team and progress for the future. Salmon's numbers have been great, and for Petrie to recognize that it's doubtful that Salmons will be able to play at this level when we need him to, and to therefore get a good piece for the future is what I think most of us have been wanting to see. For Brad, he's put up great numbers the last few days, but Spencer is the future for us at Center, so clearing that spot and perhaps getting some cap-relief/kids/picks would be ideal.

Of course, it could be entirely wishful thinking on my part, seeing what I want to see. This could be how I'm coping with seeing constant DNP next to Donte's name, and JT with 10-12 less minutes played compared to Brad while Spencer is out.
But with the amount of minutes these two are getting, as well as their good play, I can't but think they've been told to really put it out on the line so that Petrie can convince a playoff team to take a shot on them.

Here's to wishful thinking...
I hate to break it to you, but I think that Petrie's input on playing time is exactly 0%. What kind of leverage would he have? ... threaten to fire Kenny Natt at the end of the year if he doesn't?
 
#8
I hate to break it to you, but I think that Petrie's input on playing time is exactly 0%. What kind of leverage would he have? ... threaten to fire Kenny Natt at the end of the year if he doesn't?
Oh, I know that Petrie has always maintained that he has zero input in who gets played and how many minutes they get, but I don't believe this is the case now.
In the Maloof era this is the first time a coach has been relieved in the middle of the season. There is no way that the Maloofs and Petrie fired Theus and then told Natt, "The job is yours, go and do what you think is best."

No, you've got to assume that either the Maloofs or Petrie, or both working together took Natt aside and diagrammed out what they wanted him to accomplish for the remainder of the year. And if they did that, I would expect seeing a nudge or two from the Front Office through-out the remainder of the year as circumstances change or potential opportunities arise.

If Natt decided he really, really liked Kenny Thomas, Sheldon Williams, and Quincy Douby and started playing all three 30+ minutes a night, I don't think he'd last a game or two. And I don't think that either Petrie or the Maloofs would hesitate a moment to fire Natt if he decided he was going to put in a lineup which was completely at odds with what the Front Office wanted to gain for the remainder of the season.

As an interim coach, I'd expect he gets most of the decision making as far as offense/defense, but the players to play, and the range of minutes probably has a lot of influence from the front office. Some of this will probably be answered by how quickly Spencer gets back into the starting line-up. There is no way that Mikki is being showcased for a trade, so as soon as Spencer is healthy enough to get back into the starting line-up he should get back in there.

Petrie has to know that the development of Donte for instance is very important, and that we have nothing to lose by playing him 12-15 minutes a game. The only reason I can see as to why he would continue to get DNPs while Salmons is getting 38+ a night is to showcase Salmons for a potential trade.

At least I'll continue to tell myself that until either a trade goes down, or the trade deadline passes....
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#9
Ok, call me crazy, but I really think we can beat New Jersey. This team is actually playing better, largely because the turnovers are getting reduced, and of course Martin is back. I'm expecting Martin to be our new point guard, by the way.;) Six assists. He looked >>>>>>>> Beno or B. Brown as an assist man. One of these days, when he has better finishers around him, I can see him having a 10 assist game.
 
#10
Ok, call me crazy, but I really think we can beat New Jersey. This team is actually playing better, largely because the turnovers are getting reduced, and of course Martin is back. I'm expecting Martin to be our new point guard, by the way.;) Six assists. He looked >>>>>>>> Beno or B. Brown as an assist man. One of these days, when he has better finishers around him, I can see him having a 10 assist game.
I was very, very excited to see Kevin get 6 assists. If he can continue his rebounding averages of the last few years (4.5) while increasing his assists to around 4.5, while making his teammates better then perhaps we can have discussions about 'All-Star'.

The problem in this game and potentially for the future is the turn-overs.
This game he had 5 TOs, and he currently is not a good enough playmaker to force things. When he tries to force a pass, especially going cross-court, the odds are pretty good that it will get deflected, intercepted, or unable to be reached/handled by his teammate. (I'm fairly certain this accounted for at least 3 of his 5 TOs, though I haven't rewatched the game to be certain.)

The other aspect he needs to work on is his mentality when he drives into the lane.
It seems that if he knows he's driving into traffic and will not be able to get off a clean shot, his mind works like this:
1.) Get into the lane, or get fouled by defender while making move into lane.
2.) Once in the lane, draw enough contact to get the foul.
3.) Maintain enough focus to try and get a shot off.

If he's driving into the lane and know he will not be able to get a shot off with-out contact, I'd rather his mentality be like this:
1.) Get into the lane, or get fouled by defender while making move into lane.
2.) The basket is guarded, so look for passing lane to wide-open teammate who's defender has dropped off to cover the basket.
3.) If no passing lanes open think scoring opportunity for yourself.
4.) Maintain focus and try to get a good shot off.
5.) Expect contact but look for the good shot through the contact first, and the official's to call a foul second.

It just looks to me that if he thinks there will be a lot of contact he's focused 100% on drawing the contact, getting the foul while putting up a shot. If he is just denied the lane to the basket, or doesn't get much contact that is when we see him pass the ball.

Granted I love that he goes after contact and his free-throw game, but he can still have that while finding open teammates amidst the contact. If he can develop that, get 4.5+ assists a game while getting his TOs down, I don't think that All-Star is out of the question for him.
 
#11
Moore ( D ) -- ... You will find one of our posters arguing down below that throwing our crappy vets out on the court to lose game after game just has to be on orders from above to try to pump their trade value so we can dump them (although with our guys the less you see maybe the better). Everybody has to hope and pray that is the case, because the other option is that Natt has the I.Q. of a cheeseburger.
Hey now!

I was just talking about Salmons and Miller (who have been solid, though not spectacular). In my opinion the Front Office has the I.Q. of a cheeseburger if they have asked Natt to play Moore as a starter and 20+ minutes a game in an effort to showcase his 'skills'.

And if Natt hasn't received the directive from the front-office then he has the I.Q. of a chalupa if he thinks playing Moore will help him win games.
Unless the Front Office has given Natt the directive to actually lose games by purposefully playing Moore minutes, I can't in any way figure out why Moore is getting the minutes (or the starting position) which he's been getting of late. Unless of course Natt really does have the I.Q. of a chalupa....
 
#12
We already had our easy game for January (against the Clippers), next one is Feb. 1 when OKC comes to Arco. So I voted "never again," but I just meant during January. We could yet win some more and pull out a 12-70 season! ;)

#3 draft position, and only one game out of #2! RAH!
 
#13
Kenny natt play the young guys there the future stop playing the old guys just to make them happy. Because when natt is gone those young players will still be there.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#14
We already had our easy game for January (against the Clippers), next one is Feb. 1 when OKC comes to Arco. So I voted "never again," but I just meant during January. We could yet win some more and pull out a 12-70 season! ;)

#3 draft position, and only one game out of #2! RAH
!
I sure wish people would quit acting like our final league standing will determine where we draft...

This is our Kings, remember? We could end up with the worst record in the entire league and draft 5th or so...
 
#16
Also, didn't get to see the game, but it sounds like more of the same.

Except, Very exciting to see Martin playing like this again!! I take it Hawes didn't play again?
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#17
Also, didn't get to see the game, but it sounds like more of the same.

Except, Very exciting to see Martin playing like this again!! I take it Hawes didn't play again?
Hawes did not play. And the game was competitive, unlike several recent outings....
 
#18
Natt doesn't have orders to play anyone just to increase their tradeability. Who in their right mind would think that watching Moore play 24min and get 1 rebound would make him look desireable. The reality is probably closer to, Natt thinks that Moore on a bad day is as good or better than Shelden or K9. Natt's been around and seen them for a year and a half, and he knows the talent level of each.

We knew Greene being a rookie with no defensive training would see reduced minutes when Martin returned. So, with Cisco getting early foul trouble two games in a row, it's not a mystery why Salmons is seeing extended minutes. After all he's our 2nd leading scorer.

The TRUTH about our rotations, is that we have a really bad team with bad or undeveloped talent. The TRUTH is that Natt just like Reggie is putting the guys on the court that won't STINK up the place as badly. And, when GP does finially make a trade, some of the marginal players on the team will probably get more time, and then we'll all know how bad they are.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#19
Ok, call me crazy, but I really think we can beat New Jersey. This team is actually playing better, largely because the turnovers are getting reduced, and of course Martin is back. I'm expecting Martin to be our new point guard, by the way.;) Six assists. He looked >>>>>>>> Beno or B. Brown as an assist man. One of these days, when he has better finishers around him, I can see him having a 10 assist game.
Well OK. I really didn't want to, but, since you asked me to: Your Crazy! There, feel better now?:D
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#20
I sure wish people would quit acting like our final league standing will determine where we draft...

This is our Kings, remember? We could end up with the worst record in the entire league and draft 5th or so...
Actually, I think you can only move down 2 spots. Maybe 3. I'm sure the Capt. will let us know.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#21
Natt doesn't have orders to play anyone just to increase their tradeability. Who in their right mind would think that watching Moore play 24min and get 1 rebound would make him look desireable. The reality is probably closer to, Natt thinks that Moore on a bad day is as good or better than Shelden or K9. Natt's been around and seen them for a year and a half, and he knows the talent level of each.

We knew Greene being a rookie with no defensive training would see reduced minutes when Martin returned. So, with Cisco getting early foul trouble two games in a row, it's not a mystery why Salmons is seeing extended minutes. After all he's our 2nd leading scorer.

The TRUTH about our rotations, is that we have a really bad team with bad or undeveloped talent. The TRUTH is that Natt just like Reggie is putting the guys on the court that won't STINK up the place as badly. And, when GP does finially make a trade, some of the marginal players on the team will probably get more time, and then we'll all know how bad they are.
God, I just hate it when someone makes a post thats logical. How do you expect me to argue with you for heavens sake?:rolleyes:
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#22
Actually, I think you can only move down 2 spots. Maybe 3. I'm sure the Capt. will let us know.
Geez, it's a good thing I showed up! For most teams in the lottery, the maximum number of spots you can drop is three. This is because only the top three spots are randomly determined - if all three "lottery winners" come from below your slot, you drop three spots.

Of course, there is that little known "Kings Rule"... ;)
 
#23
I sure wish people would quit acting like our final league standing will determine where we draft...

This is our Kings, remember? We could end up with the worst record in the entire league and draft 5th or so...
It's not possible to drop below 4th with the #1 draft position. But even that would still be our first top-5 draft pick in 18 years. The last one netted us Billy Owens, who was turned into Mitch Richmond. So again, I say...

RAH!
 
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