Grades v. Nets 11/27/09

[bajaden]

I say give Sean Mays an F. He played horrible.

Your being pretty generous with the word PLAYED!

 

[Kings Faithful]

I do trust Beno. Can't believe I just said that, after last year...

But his turnaround is amazing so far. I think a big reason is that he no longer has to push the ball up the court and be the "savior", it is all too clear that he isn't that guy. Tyreke can be that player. Beno can run around the floor without having to be held accountable for the flow of offense. This seems to open up Beno's game; he has an excellent pull up jumper a little inside outside free throw distance. He can exploit the other team for layups. These are offensive elements that bring different elements to the Kings offense. These are unique offensive skills that make us better offensively.

If we traded him, I would be afraid that we'd lose our offensive spark. We would have no backup at point, and that could be a disaster.

This year it seems that Beno's contract isn't so bad after all...it may turn out to be a fairly good one!

In my mind, Beno is earning his contract and there is no longer a need to trade him for the sake of trading him. Unless of course the right deal comes along, but I don't believe in dumping him purely for cap relief. He is pretty much our Bobby Jackson now. I like Sergio as a third backup for when Beno or Tyreke don't have it going. Our weekness is obviously at center. We need either a defensive backup or a big time starter and, if possible, we need to get him without giving up any important pieces. I include Noc, Beno, Donte, Spencer, Jason, Kevin, Evans, Bockman, and Casspi as our important pieces.

 

[bajaden]

Must say that is a tempting thought, now that our talent is showing itself as able to flourish under Westphal. Very tempting indeed. I wonder what we could get for KMart, Noc/Cisco, and Kenny? Thoughts anyone?

We need a center. A starter or a very good backup. I have no one in mind at the moment. Ideally, you would want to trade him to an eastern club so he doesn't come back and bite us in the butt more than twice a year.

The problem is that their aren't that many good centers. Someone like Lopez is probably untouchable. Someone like Dalembert you would like to get cheaper. That leaves you with the Brendon Haywood's of the world. And their only a short term answer, with too big a price tag.

Perhaps the best thing to do is go after someone like Darko Milicic. He's hardly playing, and apparently the Knicks have little use for him. He's an expiring contract and makes almost the same salary as Kenny Thomas. He's a 7 footer and he does attempt to play defense. He's also never really had a chance to play. Now why? I don't know. It would be a short rental to see if a new system and new coaching would finally get him on track. At worse, it would at least give us a backup center in the short term that has some height.

 

[JerN820]

I really like K-Mart and I still want to see what he can do with our current team. However, I'm not so against a possible trade involving him as I was because we don't have a "need" for what he brings. He is a great scorer... but our team right now has no problem scoring really. Before really considering trading him I still want to see him in action for a few games though.

What's funny is that last year I didnt think that would could have survived any game last year without his offensive output. Now that we are out rebounding teams and showing more passion out there this year (not to mention have more experience and better talent), I dont think I would totally be against a trade either.

 

[bajaden]

Beno has been bailing Tyreke out. You got to play Beno. That second half was one of Ty's most rookie-like and frustrating halves I've seen so far. It was full on 1 on 5 mode, which lead to Noc getting visibly annoyed for not getting the ball. Beno and Sergio finally got the ball movement back, and for Beno it has been something he's bee routinely doing at the end of games. Tyreke tries to do too much while ignoring the team, so Beno basically takes over the ball and makes the offense move again.

As much of a matchup nightmare the Greene/Evans backcourt was, and defensively solid as well, the thought of such lack of ball handlers and passing is too much a danger to me. This same issue applies to KMart and Evans. You can't do it till Cisco comes back.

I don't know what game you were watching, but Noc got the ball twice at the beginning of the second half. He turned it over twice and was pulled from the game. I don't believe he played the rest of the game. So I doubt he was annoyed about not getting the ball. Unless he expected it on the bench.

 

[bajaden]

Does anyone have a speculation on why Greene got so few minutes in this game? I thought he played very well in the first quarter, and then except for a few minutes at the beginning of the second half, he was on the bench. If Greene is going to get this many minutes with the existing lineup, I just wonder what's going to happen when Kevin and Garcia come back?

I think the problem started when CDR came into the game and Greene was guarding him. Roberts is just to quick for Greene and beat him off the dribble several times. No knock there on Greene. It was just a bad matchup.

 

[kupman]

I have the same question. I think we have something very special in Donte Greene; I definitely don't want to lose it!

I was having the same question run through my mind last night as i fell to sleep. Something is going to have to give somewhere.

 

[fnordius]

As much of a matchup nightmare the Greene/Evans backcourt was, and defensively solid as well, the thought of such lack of ball handlers and passing is too much a danger to me. This same issue applies to KMart and Evans. You can't do it till Cisco comes back.

An embarrassingly short time into the season, I decided that I should eat some crow WRT my post-draft prediction that we'd have a lousy A/TO ratio. Now it's looking like I should start coughing that crow back up.

Last year the Kings managed a 1.28 A/TO ratio, which was 28th in the NBA, above only Memphis and OKC. This year, we're at 1.23 and dropping. That doesn't put us in good company, of the 8 teams with the worst A/TO ratios, the two lowest are also the NBA's two worst teams (NJN, Minny), all eight are lottery teams, and the Kings are the winningest team of the bunch. Conversely, the top 8 A/TO ratios in the league all belong to winning teams (Dallas, Boston, SAS, Atlanta, Utah, Denver, LAL, Phoenix). It's not a stat that can be safely ignored.

 

[rainmaker]

Look, our offense can run efficiently without KMart. Kmart is only one dimensional, an awesome offensive player. So why do we need him, really? Do we really want to become logjammed with talent like the Trailblazers? Will we have suffocating defense with a Reke/KMart lineup? No, we will not. We already know what KMart can offer. That is why we trade him for a positional need.

Just because our offense has run somewhat efficiently for 10 games without Kevin, doesn't mean we don't need the guy and all the sudden you trade him. And I say somewhat efficiently because we really could have used Kevins offense on our last road trip. You have no idea how effective a Tyreke/Kevin backcourt could be down the road.

10 games is no where near long enough to decide this offense doesn't need Kevin and just ship him out. I find it rediculous how when we have a good stretch, some fans immediatley start talking trades. You can't jump to conclusions that quickly. And it doesn't take any thought at all to say "we know what Kev offers, just trade him". Really? Give me a name. Give me a possibility or two. Do you want Beno as our fulltime starting pg? You would rather trade Kevin than Noc or Cisco? Why not package KT and Noc for a big and hold off on trading Kevin until you know what we have with him and Tyreke playing together?

Any yes, I would rather have a logjam of talent like Portland does, opposed to having very little talent like the Kings of 08-09.It clearly gives us more options going forward.

 

[gunks]

We have more issues at the 3 I think.

I want to see how the Evans/Martin backcourt does. Dont think Reke's PG skills are quite there yet for it to be effective...But we shall see.

Martin has become expendable though, and he is probably our best trade chip. If a good deal comes along then I think we should bite.

One of Noc or Cisco HAS to be shipped out though. Omri and Greene need minutes, both those guys have a future in the league, I want that future to be on the Kings. I'm leaning towards Noc. His toughness is no longer needed. He takes dumb shots, and lacks the leadership of Cisco.

 

[HighTopKicks]

An embarrassingly short time into the season, I decided that I should eat some crow WRT my post-draft prediction that we'd have a lousy A/TO ratio. Now it's looking like I should start coughing that crow back up.

Last year the Kings managed a 1.28 A/TO ratio, which was 28th in the NBA, above only Memphis and OKC. This year, we're at 1.23 and dropping. That doesn't put us in good company, of the 8 teams with the worst A/TO ratios, the two lowest are also the NBA's two worst teams (NJN, Minny), all eight are lottery teams, and the Kings are the winningest team of the bunch. Conversely, the top 8 A/TO ratios in the league all belong to winning teams (Dallas, Boston, SAS, Atlanta, Utah, Denver, LAL, Phoenix). It's not a stat that can be safely ignored.

It's a good number for identifying where you stand compared to good teams who know how to score and can play defense. But, there are alot of better stats for determining if your going to win or not.

This came from the King Game News for the NJ game.

The Kings are 4-4 when they commit 15 or more turnovers​

The KIngs are 3-4 when committing under 15 turnovers

I doubt that anyone would conclude that the Kings need to commit more than 15 turnovers to have a better chance to win.

Atlanta averages the fewest turnovers 12.7 and Memphis is the worst at 16.8. A total of 4 possessions even with the best playing the worst. Pts of Turnovers is more telling. We had 17 turnovers against NJ but they only scored 11 pts of those turnovers. While the Kings scored 17 pts off of NJ's 11 turnovers.

Assists are another of those hard to figure out stats. NJ scored 96 pts but only had 10 assists. So, I'm going to conclude that you don't need a lot of assists to score alot of points.

The first stat I look at after the score is FGA's. If your a good shooting team and get more FGA's than your oppontent, your most likely going to win. FGA's are determined by offensive rebounding, steals, fouls,& turnovers.

 

[Bricklayer]

well I gotta say I am pretty pleased wiht my poll.

5 of the 6 options getting significant support, and its clear there is no consensus at all on how to deal with the issue. That's a spur for good conversation.

 

[Kingster]

I think the problem started when CDR came into the game and Greene was guarding him. Roberts is just to quick for Greene and beat him off the dribble several times. No knock there on Greene. It was just a bad matchup.

I was curious enough to play the tape. Part of it had to do with CDR, but probably a small part. I think the main part was that Greene wasn't making as much impact in the rebounding or defense under the basket, and he wasn't being utilized offensively. Greene was not putting his nose in there when help was needed on the defensive board, and he didn't do much either on the offensive board. He was leaking out too early after the shot was put up. Because he was playing the 2, it was really difficult to tell whether he was leaking out because he was frustrated by his lack of offensive touches, or maybe he was confused about his role as a 2. Did anyone notice that Greene got nary a touch on the offensive end? Was this an error of omission or commission? I don't know, but sure seems too coincidental that he lights it up against NY and then rarely gets the ball in this game. I'm left wondering why Greene wasn't used more as a 3 or a 4 in this game, as opposed to the 2.

As an aside, this is what I saw from Hawes once and Greene once: A NJ guard, about 5 feet beyond the 3 point line starts his drive to the basket. In each case, Hawes and Greene has to move about 5 feet to take a charge from the player coming at them from 25'+ away. Both didn't take the charge. This is the kind of thing that Westphal won't be happy about in the film session. The learning process contintues...

 

[Kingster]

An embarrassingly short time into the season, I decided that I should eat some crow WRT my post-draft prediction that we'd have a lousy A/TO ratio. Now it's looking like I should start coughing that crow back up.

Last year the Kings managed a 1.28 A/TO ratio, which was 28th in the NBA, above only Memphis and OKC. This year, we're at 1.23 and dropping. That doesn't put us in good company, of the 8 teams with the worst A/TO ratios, the two lowest are also the NBA's two worst teams (NJN, Minny), all eight are lottery teams, and the Kings are the winningest team of the bunch. Conversely, the top 8 A/TO ratios in the league all belong to winning teams (Dallas, Boston, SAS, Atlanta, Utah, Denver, LAL, Phoenix). It's not a stat that can be safely ignored.

It helps to be able to finish. Give me Kareem or Shaq in his prime and voila! - our A/TO goes up dramatically. And amazingly, our team gets in the playoffs. And it would have nothing to do with our ability to pass the ball. I just don't think passing is the problem. I saw some outstanding passing last night. Side to side, back and forth, bounce pass on the run, etc. Hawes, Thompson, Greene are all above average passers. Tyreke is above average when he puts his mind to it. Casspi can pass. This team has good passers (Noc is horrible, Kevin is marginal). The A/TO will get better over time.

 

[bajaden]

I was curious enough to play the tape. Part of it had to do with CDR, but probably a small part. I think the main part was that Greene wasn't making as much impact in the rebounding or defense under the basket, and he wasn't being utilized offensively. Greene was not putting his nose in there when help was needed on the defensive board, and he didn't do much either on the offensive board. He was leaking out too early after the shot was put up. Because he was playing the 2, it was really difficult to tell whether he was leaking out because he was frustrated by his lack of offensive touches, or maybe he was confused about his role as a 2. Did anyone notice that Greene got nary a touch on the offensive end? Was this an error of omission or commission? I don't know, but sure seems too coincidental that he lights it up against NY and then rarely gets the ball in this game. I'm left wondering why Greene wasn't used more as a 3 or a 4 in this game, as opposed to the 2.

As an aside, this is what I saw from Hawes once and Greene once: A NJ guard, about 5 feet beyond the 3 point line starts his drive to the basket. In each case, Hawes and Greene has to move about 5 feet to take a charge from the player coming at them from 25'+ away. Both didn't take the charge. This is the kind of thing that Westphal won't be happy about in the film session. The learning process contintues...

I was wondering the same thing about Greene not getting into the game when Hawes couldn't come back. It could have been that the team on the floor was playing so well that Westphal didn't want to fix something that wasn't broke at the time. But one would think that Greene would have matched up better with Lopez than Kenny Thomas did.

Greene did do a couple of nice things at the beginning of the game. Great bounce pass under the basket. I just noticed that it was shortly after CDR came into the game and took him off the dribble a couple of time and I think he was late getting there on a jumper also, that he was taken out of the game.

 

[roasthawg]

I honestly have no idea on how to answer the poll question right now. It's obvious that someone has to go... the question is who? And what do we want back in return? I have no idea what Petrie might be thinking at this point... tough call.

 

[fnordius]

This came from the King Game News for the NJ game.

The Kings are 4-4 when they commit 15 or more turnovers​

The KIngs are 3-4 when committing under 15 turnovers

I doubt that anyone would conclude that the Kings need to commit more than 15 turnovers to have a better chance to win.

When the numbers don't seem to make sense, a little more depth to the analysis can be enlightening.

Of the 7 games where the Kings had an A/TO ratio which was better than their opponent, or within 1 assist of being equal, they won 5 of the 7.

Of the 8 games where the Kings had a worse A/TO ratio than their opponent, they lost 6.

 

[fnordius]

It helps to be able to finish.

And yet we're ranked 9th in the NBA for FG%, 7th for 3-point %, and 5th for points per game. Some of our players do need to work on finishing, but as a team we're still well above average.

 

[Kingster]

And yet we're ranked 9th in the NBA for FG%, 7th for 3-point %, and 5th for points per game. Some of our players do need to work on finishing, but as a team we're still well above average.

Which may mean that the FG% has a lot of room to improve. Remember all the times that Hawes and Thompson have taken 1, 2, or 3 dribbles after receiving a nice pass under the basket? If they grow out of their dribbling phase, then assists will multiply and turnovers will decrease.

 

[6th]

Which may mean that the FG% has a lot of room to improve. Remember all the times that Hawes and Thompson have taken 1, 2, or 3 dribbles after receiving a nice pass under the basket? If they grow out of their dribbling phase, then assists will multiply and turnovers will decrease.

Agreed. I hate it when a player gets the ball in the post and thinks he has to dribble the ball. So many bigs think they have to dribble. It is a habit that many players have learned to overcome. Hopefully, our guys can learn the same. Get ready for a pass, and be ready to put the ball up.

 

[Entity]

Agreed. I hate it when a player gets the ball in the post and thinks he has to dribble the ball. So many bigs think they have to dribble. It is a habit that many players have learned to overcome. Hopefully, our guys can learn the same. Get ready for a pass, and be ready to put the ball up.

I will never forget KT a few years back all by himself under the basket goes for that 1 dribble and puts it off his foot out of bounds.

 

[fnordius]

Which may mean that the FG% has a lot of room to improve. Remember all the times that Hawes and Thompson have taken 1, 2, or 3 dribbles after receiving a nice pass under the basket? If they grow out of their dribbling phase, then assists will multiply and turnovers will decrease.

I dunno. Hawes and JT have 62% and 59% assisted shots, respectively. That's not bad, very similar to Casspi (62%) or Nocioni (63%), for example. And all of our guards are passing to the same guys, yet Sergio has a 2.55 A/TO ratio, Beno has just under 2.0, and Evans has 1.5. (That might account for why Sergio's Roland Rating easily tops the team right now, since his shooting and D are unlikely to account for it.) So I'm hoping mostly for some improvement in ball handling & running of the offense. If unnecessary dribbling stops too, so much the better.

 

[swisshh]

I don't know what game you were watching, but Noc got the ball twice at the beginning of the second half. He turned it over twice and was pulled from the game. I don't believe he played the rest of the game. So I doubt he was annoyed about not getting the ball. Unless he expected it on the bench.

He was open on the break on the wing and threw his hands up for the ball, got ignored by Reke and became visibly annoyed.