Grades v. Magic 12/04

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Salmons ( A- ) -- in the first half on offense it was kind of a mixed bag for John -- his own offense was scrappy and erratic, and the big shotblockers were bothering him. He was pasing well and moving the ball though. Meanwhile on the other side of the court Hedo got inside repeatedly and used his size to score. But that all reversed in the second half, when John got hot in the third, and from the outside which is normally his weakness. And on the other end of the court he was often having to switch over onto Kevin's man in the face of Kevin's increasingly porous defense. And he did a good job of it -- solid again over there. Just staying in the way, not being a guy you can victimize. A second straight game where you really got all you can really expect out of a John Salmons level player, but it still wasn't enough.
Thomas ( B+ ) -- of course very undersized for this game, and in the first half pretty much looked it. Contributed a few hustle boards and points on the offensive side of the floor, but was largely engulfed in there. Came out with another energetic third where he scrapped and hustled for boards even as Howard began to surge himself. And while hopelessly overmatched up high, got his hands in there to slap away steals down low while the Orlando bigs were still bringing the ball up, including an important one in crunchtime on Howard. Also got a few balls dunked on his head and not surprisingly could not finish inside, but all in all did about as well as a 6'7" man can be expected to do against a team where he was shorter than everyone but their PG (Howard 6'11" Battie 6'11" Hedo 6'10" Hill 6'8"). Thought of an A-, but the poor first half and 2-7 shooting dragged it back to B+.
Reef ( D- ) -- may have been too interested in proving something to Howard in the early stages, and just could not get anything going. Nor was he particularly being smart about it. Pretty much a wipeout outing with 4pts 3rebs on 0-4 shooting and a benching for the bulk of the second half. But not going to the F because he was legitimately overmatched, and didn't let Howard go 30-20 on him or anything. He just did nothing to really help and really really needs to be replaced by Brad as a starter here.
Martin ( C ) -- was clearly featured in the early going here, but was just as clearly being shadowed wherever he went -- only got one really open shot I saw before halftime, and knocked it down of course. Clearly bothered in the early third after we tried to get him the ball but the Magic were there, leading to several more turnovers. Began to force and play out of his comfort zone at one stretch, and aside from a few runouts, just wasn't there. Also had some defensive lapses. Thus at one point the grade was down to a C-. But he bumped his grade up not 1, but 2 half points (to a C+) with a little burst in the mid 4th after being locked up all night, when he picked up his chin and knocked down some shots to help keep us close going into the stretch run. A missed three ended it though, and he was quiet the rest of the way. Lost that plus off the grade by showing himself the weak link defensively late in the game as Grant Hill schooled him repeatedly, forcing Salmons over to take the cover. Got 16 pts in a struggle, but gave us little else (shaky defense, 3rebs 1ast). Difficult outing.
Bibby ( B ) -- started off the game missing again, and I thought man this guy just cannot kick this early season slump. But thankfully he quickly heated up and ended up carrying us through the first half with a good mix of outside shots and drives inside to try to draw fouls. Had 15 at the half and looked like the Bibby of old. But just disappeared after half, shooting 2-9 in the second half for 4 pts. Finally showed back up in the final 2 minutes with a key jumper, and then split a double team to set up Brad for the tying shot in the lane with 25 seconds to go. Was also victimized for the Magic's game winning three, but to be fair it was shot way behind the arc and asking a guy to smother a player 30 feet from the hoop is a bit much. Gave us the first half we needed, and tried to come up big in the clutch, but with the general second half struggles still just another 6-17 game for him.
Miller ( C+ ) -- in the first half came in and immediately hit a jumper to help create a little space inside with all the shotblockers lurking. Gave us nothing that bigs are supposed to in the half, but the scoring helped. In the second half there was some good, some bad, as Brad took over for the ineffective Reef and played the final 15min of the game or so I beleive. Some good, some bad, late, including a dumb missed three and a big turnover in the last 50 seconds. Along the way made a few defensive stands, but was mostly run over, hit a few of his galloping ghost big hick rumbles, but missed most of his shots, and boarded decently after half. Not a good outing per se, but he at least put up some resistance as a full sized center in there, and made enough plays to keep it competitive.
Cisco ( INC ) -- a short wild first half stint, did not return
Williamson ( C ) -- some good some bad in the first half as Corliss came in to bite the kneecaps of the Orlando bigs. Got a couple of scores, including a wise jumper considering the heighth he was faced with, but otherwise looked kind of silly out there. After half it was really just the silly as he decided to come inside and see if those big guys were actually as giant as they looked from afar, and found out the hard way that yes they were.
Price ( B+ ) -- had some fun moments in the second quarter with some excellent hustle plays and good guard rebounding -- gave us a big spark to close the first half with a rush and take the lead into the break. In the second half there was none of the fireworks, but at least he ran the team pretty solidly. Did however get victimized by Carlos Arroyo for a couple of three point plays.

Muss ( B- ) -- not as bad a loss as some are making it out to be I think. Orlando did not look sharp, and it might just be the back to back thing on the backend of a long road trip. But still, they have the best record in the East, they have an impossible matchup for us up front, and we were without Ron (and no, that is NOT a good thing). And we were still right there. I think maybe the biggest reason was that we scrapped hard. Or at least certain players did, and the grand tradition around here is to credit at least part of that to the coach -- we were ready to play and bring the effort. Unfortunately the execution left something to be desired, and we were just overwhelmed by all the trees down inside blocking 1 out of every 2 shots we put up it seemed. So that was the good. Muss also clearly was featuring Kevin more in the offense early, although results form this one were questionable in that regard. Still, we tried. He is just drawing a lot of attention. And I liked the way Muss advanced Price up the food chain after his strong first half and subbed him in early in the second. Even though he wasn't that effective he rewarded the good first half play and knew where to go looking for a spark. Also markes the second straight game where Reef has started but Brad is closing and playing all of the 4th quarter minutes. The only problem is that its BRAD who should be doing the starting against a team like the Magic. In fact I really need Muss to sit down and explain to me what our "flexible matchup" pieces are doing counting the hair foillicles on the chests of the Magic bigs (and man are they big). Who the hell puts Corliss Williamson in and has him check a 7 footer? Why isn't Brad, a 7 footer himself and playing a ton of minutes anyway, starting at this point rather than waiting for Reef to be overwhelmed by the bad matchups and then inserting the real matchup to play down the stretch. Answers are wanting. This is that I do know: While neither this loss nor the Spurs loss were bad ones, here we are back to .500, having played Kevin and Mike 40+ min in a losing effort, and now having to go on the road for a back to back against the surging Suns.
 
Last edited:
That sucked.

ok, look Muss. Let's get some things straight.

#1: Shareef is not a center. I don't care who you pick to start the game between Shareef and Kenny. I really could care less. But Brad Miller is a center. Shareef is not. Just stop it.

#2: Corliss is a great 12th man. We all like him. You can stop playing him now. Really. Stop it. He looks like a rookie, he can't guard anyone and he's 6'6". STOP IT.

#3: You know that whole doubling Howard thing that was working well in the first quarter when he got the ball down low? Yeah. What happened to that?

#4: Did you really think Kenny Thomas could guard Howard one on one? I mean, seriously?

Did I mention that sucked?

Bibby actually had a pretty decent night. Through three quarters. Then, other than that clutch shot, it was largely disastrous. It turned out our best offensive option was Brad Miller driving to the bucket. Yes. Brad Miller driving to the bucket. Bibby -- what gives?? You were doing so great through three quarters, and then you stood by and watched Brad Miller take to the hole again and again? Although I can't blame Bibby. This should be directed at Brad. Brad, did you really think the Kings best option was you chucking threes and taking it to the hole? I think I might disagree.

And seriously, is 6-17 Bibby's middle name now?

Kenny had a gutty effort. Too bad he's not taller.

John Salmons: where are all those people who hailed his signing as a harbinger of the apocalypse? Defensive stalwart, opportunisitic offense, setting other people up. Petrie - kudos.

Still, all in all, even though that sucked, the Kings missed a lot of shots they normally make, the Magic are pretty good, and Artest wasn't playing. I refrained from throwing myself out the window. It still sucked though.
 
Last edited:
John Salmons: where are all those people who hailed his signing as a harbinger of the apocalypse? Defensive stalwart, opportunisitic offense, setting other people up. Petrie - kudos.

I distinctly recall many of us saying to just give him a chance before throwing him under a bus. ;) :D

Can GP please quit looking at guards now and focus on larger players? Please?
 
That sucked.

ok, look Muss. Let's get some things straight.

#1: Shareef is not a center. I don't care who you pick to start the game between Shareef and Kenny. I really could care less. But Brad Miller is a center. Shareef is not. Just stop it.

agree with u 100%,, he is actually aSF but plays The PF position better,,,, MUSS better do sumthn.
 
John Salmons: where are all those people who hailed his signing as a harbinger of the apocalypse? Defensive stalwart, opportunisitic offense, setting other people up. Petrie - kudos.
My objection to signing Salmons is the same now as it was four months ago; it's not about whether or not he can play, it's about the fact that we spent our MLE on a guy that is basically either a less talented version of our star (Artest) or a more polished version of a backup guy that we already had (Garcia), and does nothing to fix any of the problems that we've had since Webber blew out his knee... namely, no interior presence, either offensively or defensively.

My other grievance is that we allegedly signed Salmons to shore up our putrid bench, and a quick glance at Salmons' game logs for the season indicates that, like Thomas, he's not all that productive unless he's starting; he's just not a cancer about it the way that Thomas is...
 
I distinctly recall many of us saying to just give him a chance before throwing him under a bus. ;) :D

Can GP please quit looking at guards now and focus on larger players? Please?
I don't think that GP knows about a concept of "larger players"
 
My objection to signing Salmons is the same now as it was four months ago; it's not about whether or not he can play, it's about the fact that we spent our MLE on a guy that is basically either a less talented version of our star (Artest) or a more polished version of a backup guy that we already had (Garcia), and does nothing to fix any of the problems that we've had since Webber blew out his knee... namely, no interior presence, either offensively or defensively.

My other grievance is that we allegedly signed Salmons to shore up our putrid bench, and a quick glance at Salmons' game logs for the season indicates that, like Thomas, he's not all that productive unless he's starting; he's just not a cancer about it the way that Thomas is...



really good point
 

My other grievance is that we allegedly signed Salmons to shore up our putrid bench, and a quick glance at Salmons' game logs for the season indicates that, like Thomas, he's not all that productive unless he's starting; he's just not a cancer about it the way that Thomas is...

Really? I haven't noticed that much of a dropoff at all. He actually rebounds better off the bench despite fewer minutes. It just seems like when he gets minutes he produces. Even if he doesn't have a good game statistically, he's doing good things that don't show up in the box score.
 
Yeah. I can't knock Salmons. He just another player where we already had depth.

Really? I haven't noticed that much of a dropoff at all. He actually rebounds better off the bench despite fewer minutes. It just seems like when he gets minutes he produces. Even if he doesn't have a good game statistically, he's doing good things that don't show up in the box score.
 
Really? I haven't noticed that much of a dropoff at all. He actually rebounds better off the bench despite fewer minutes. It just seems like when he gets minutes he produces. Even if he doesn't have a good game statistically, he's doing good things that don't show up in the box score.

Sam pattern he always displayed in Philly. In fact we probably have at least three of those guys -- Kenny, Kevin, and now John.
 
Really? I haven't noticed that much of a dropoff at all...
12.4ppg (51.9% FG) 4.0 rpg 3.8 apg as a starter
6.3ppg (34.0% FG) 3.6 rpg 2.3 apg off the bench

EDIT - I'll grant you that he plays rather more minutes as a starter (35.2 versus 22.7 coming off the bench), but unless you're proposing that we start Salmons instead of Artest, we really need for him to be more productive in fewer minutes.
 
Last edited:
Salmons is proving me wrong, and I will admit that.

I love the way he can get to the rim seemingly at will.

But does anyone else cringe any time he takes a jumpshot of any kind?

And as I have said before...Corliss should be used when the matchup calls for it...Against teams that run the small ball.

Throwing him out there as a center against the likes of Howard/Battie/Milicic is a recipe for disaster.
 
Thomas ( B+ ) -- of course very undersized for this game, and in the first half pretty much looked it. Contributed a few hustle boards and points on the offensive side fo the floor, but was largely engulfed in there. But hgad another energetic third where he scrapped and hustled for boards even as Howard began to surge himself. And while hopelessly overmatched up high, got his hands in there to slap away steals down low while the Orlando bigs were still bringing the ball up, including an important one in crunchtime on Howard. Also got a few balls dunked on his head and not surprisingly could not finish inside, but all in all did about as well as a 6'7" man can be expected to do against a team where he was shorter than everyone but their PG (Howard 6'11" Battie 6'11" Hedo 6'10" Hill 6'8"). Thought of an A-, but the poor first half and 2-7 shooting dragged it back to B+.
That's both funny and sad at the same time.
 
And as I have said before...Corliss should be used when the matchup calls for it...Against teams that run the small ball.

Throwing him out there as a center against the likes of Howard/Battie/Milicic is a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, and you can't blame Muss. He's just working with what he's got.

When SAR stinks it up he's gotta throw out something other than Mo and Pot.
 
12.4ppg (51.9% FG) 4.0 rpg 3.8 apg as a starter
6.3ppg (34.0% FG) 3.6 rpg 2.3 apg off the bench

EDIT - I'll grant you that he plays rather more minutes as a starter (35.2 versus 22.7 coming off the bench), but unless you're proposing that we start Salmons instead of Artest, we really need for him to be more productive in fewer minutes.

Your numbers are wrong -- he shoots 42% off the bench, which, while not great, is at least better than 34%. And his ppg is dragged down by the games in which he played 11 minutes, and scored 1 point, and 7 minutes and scored 0. Take those away and you've got pretty comporable numbers minutewise.

I don't really care to get into a big argument about Salmons, but if you can't see what he's bringing to the team, starting and off the bench, then more power to you.
 
Team's are attacking with whoever Martin is guarding on offense and on the other side, we're making him the #1 offensive option when I don't think thats ideal for him.

I think that the team is lacking something right now, and it may be identity, it may be chemistry, or it may be talent. I'm not sure.
 
I don't know what game you're watching, but Martin is hardly the number one offensive option. It seems as if he's last option
 
Your numbers are wrong -- he shoots 42% off the bench, which, while not great, is at least better than 34%.
I stand corrected; I many have possibly read the numbers backwards but, in any case, I'll admit to whiffing on that one.

... And his ppg is dragged down by the games in which he played 11 minutes, and scored 1 point, and 7 minutes and scored 0. Take those away and you've got pretty comporable numbers minutewise...
Why should I take those away? They happened, didn't they?

... I don't really care to get into a big argument about Salmons, but if you can't see what he's bringing to the team, starting and off the bench, then more power to you.
What I see is that Salmons contributes more as a starter than he does off the bench; this cannot be factually disputed. If you can't see that... well, I'm not the one with the problem at that point.

Martin was in a similar situation last season, and the solution was to start him; are we going to start Salmons?
 
I don't know what game you're watching, but Martin is hardly the number one offensive option. It seems as if he's last option

In this game, I saw them go to him a lot, and I saw a lot of the screen and curl plays to get him the ball. He didn't always shoot on the play, but he was involved in the offense through the game.
 
In this game, I saw them go to him a lot, and I saw a lot of the screen and curl plays to get him the ball. He didn't always shoot on the play, but he was involved in the offense through the game.

Indeed...he was featured tongiht as the guy. It just didn't work very well with the Magic paying so much attention. More tinkjering needed I think.
 
We need a string of easy games to get our confidence back up. It doesn't look like that happening anytime soon. Atleast the Suns will come out tomorrow.
 
About 30 games in last season I thought Salmons was awesome for Philly... that definately changed as the year went on.
 
That sucked.

ok, look Muss. Let's get some things straight.

#1: Shareef is not a center. I don't care who you pick to start the game between Shareef and Kenny. I really could care less. But Brad Miller is a center. Shareef is not. Just stop it.

AMEN! I was disappointed that Brad still didn't start last night. Certainly he's healthy enough to start. Why on earth start Shareef against Howard?? Not that Brad could have stopped him much either, but at least Brad can run our offense. We started out discombobulated again on offense and got in yet another hole to dig out from. Brad comes in - 3 seconds later he had an assist.

#2: Corliss is a great 12th man. We all like him. You can stop playing him now. Really. Stop it. He looks like a rookie, he can't guard anyone and he's 6'6". STOP IT.

AMEN!! I like the guy, but he's the 12th best player on this team. He was actually in the game in crunch time against the Spurs. What fool puts in Corliss at crunch time?

#3: You know that whole doubling Howard thing that was working well in the first quarter when he got the ball down low? Yeah. What happened to that?

AMEN!!

#4: Did you really think Kenny Thomas could guard Howard one on one? I mean, seriously?

Yep. Unbelievable...
 
AMEN!! I like the guy, but he's the 12th best player on this team. He was actually in the game in crunch time against the Spurs. What fool puts in Corliss at crunch time?


Okay, there comes a point when the hyperbole becomes unfair to a guy like Corliss. This is a former 17ppg scorer and 6th Man of the Year we are talking about, and really, his game doesn't appear to have slipped THAT much. Certainly on a team rounding out its bench with Harts Taylors Potapenkos Doubys and Prices he isn't a 12th man. I've always found him an awkward misfit piece in the NBA, but he can be a walking mismatch correctly applied, and he knows how to play. The question is do we know how to use him? He is NOT a PF, and playing him at C is just a joke. Playing him at C against Dwight Howard... :(
 
Okay, there comes a point when the hyperbole becomes unfair to a guy like Corliss. This is a former 17ppg scorer and 6th Man of the Year we are talking about, and really, his game doesn't appear to have slipped THAT much. Certainly on a team rounding out its bench with Harts Taylors Potapenkos Doubys and Prices he isn't a 12th man. I've always found him an awkward misfit piece in the NBA, but he can be a walking mismatch correctly applied, and he knows how to play. The question is do we know how to use him? He is NOT a PF, and playing him at C is just a joke. Playing him at C against Dwight Howard... :(

At least I didn't call him "Scoreless".

He's a 3, not a 4 or 5, IMHO. Playing him at center is, as you say, a joke.

Also, playing him as the go to scorer is not effective. He's a hustle player and that's a great thing as long as that's why he's out there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top