[Grades] Grades v. Cavaliers 10/30/10

[mac]

Casspi is a BEAST.
the national team tournament got him even more ready for this season.

Well err ... Lets wait till he actually plays well consistently eh?

 

[Kingster]

I have never once bought into the "oh he's a crap rebounder but he boxes out!" line of excuse making, for anybody, and I certainly don't for Landry.

If you can take your man out of the rebounding picure, it's a plus. May not be as much of a plus as getting the rebound, but does help the teamates, especially guards and small forwards, in getting the loose ball. Jackson is another guy who may not get a ton of rebs, but he'll lay the wood on his man to prevent him from getting it.

 

[Agent23]

Why is there no mention of Reke going 6-20? It's his sophmore year, we can't turn a blind eye to his in game shortcomings anymore. He doesn't look as explosive as he was last year.

 

[Kingster]

It's another, "I don't know exactly how they did it, but they did it" kind of win. Casspi is the only one that played near-great. Everybody else you can criticize for all kinds of things, but just the physicallity of this team is going to overcome their lack of finesse at this stage in their development.

Sorry, but I have to say it again: Tyreke, stop the Las Vegas high-kick on your jump shot. It's no coincidence that you came up short on it over and over. If practice makes perfect, I really wonder if you have been practicing imperfection all off-season.

 

[Bricklayer]

If you can take your man out of the rebounding picure, it's a plus. May not be as much of a plus as getting the rebound, but does help the teamates, especially guards and small forwards, in getting the loose ball. Jackson is another guy who may not get a ton of rebs, but he'll lay the wood on his man to prevent him from getting it.

I am well aware of the value of blocking out -- try to get around me for a rebound some day and you will find yourself very well acquainted with the middle of my back by the end of the day. But you know what? I will also have grabbed a ton of rebounds, as interestingly one of the great advantages of blcoking out is that it puts me closer to the ball than you and let's me have first shot at it unless it kicks long.

I have never bought it as the never ending excuse for our endless stream of pathetic rebounding PFs who "block out" their man to the tune of getting doubled up on the glass every night. Shareef, Mikki, now we've got Landry. The great distinction between being a crappy rebounder and being "really good at blocking out" is whether somebody likes you enough to make excuses for you, not actual play on the court.

 

[Prince_XY]

Omri was playing this one like a playoff game.

I juts finished watching the game on League Pass Broadband and I agree. Plus, I think it is becoming clearer that Casspi should be the starter at SF over Donte Greene who is not that serious with his basketball career anyways. This might turn out good for Greene. Less pressure now for him to be that good in basketball. He and Thompson would be able to concentrate more on doing those cool little movies that they are fond of doing.

 

[jcassio]

Shareef, Mikki, now we've got Landry. The great distinction between being a crappy rebounder and being "really good at blocking out" is whether somebody likes you enough to make excuses for you, not actual play on the court.

After the first game of the season, I thought - maybe - Landry was worthy of a starting power forward spot. But after 3 games, I'm back to thinking that he should be viewed as our 6th man - sort of our version of Mark Aguirre during the Pistons' championship years. Maybe that's a reach (note I said 'our version'), but he has the offensive skills to be a valuable 6th man. Defensively he can be a weak link due to being undersized and not having a nose for rebounds. We actually have a number of players who have the potential to eventually be a valuable 6th man. I guess that means we've been building our talent base...

 

[pshn80]

I have never bought it as the never ending excuse for our endless stream of pathetic rebounding PFs who "block out" their man to the tune of getting doubled up on the glass every night. Shareef, Mikki, now we've got Landry. The great distinction between being a crappy rebounder and being "really good at blocking out" is whether somebody likes you enough to make excuses for you, not actual play on the court.

"Not actual play on the court"?? In this case I think it is actual play on the court. And, now, we don't have a lousy rebounding team no matter which group is in there. If it's not going well at the moment (for rebounding) put some better rebounders in. Having lived through the "no rebounding" era with the Kings, right now I'm in seventh heaven. We can actually afford the luxury of playing an excellent offensive player like Landry.

 

[Gary]

Yah, I would love to see a starting lineup of Dally, and Cousins just for the heck of it. See if they can get the Kings going early.

 

[FaStRmAn]

Voted for Casspi for game best but those 2 missed free throws in crunch time are what separate the men from the boys. You can't accept the ball in that situation unless you are SURE you are gonna at LEAST hit one of 2. Missing both is totally unacceptable in that game situation. It erases a great deal in my opinion of the rest of his very good game exploits. I don't think we could have won this game without Casspi's hustle and hot shooting, but we also nearly lost the game on his missed crunch time free throws. You just cant ignore those misses. Cousins looked very good in this game against a very tough veteran Varejao. He muscled the Cavs and the drive and dunk off the attempted steal by Varejao was a thing of beauty. As Cousins gets better, you can see defenses starting to take notice of his abilities. A lot of dig downs and shows, but not many double teams yet. When teams have to double Cousins, our shooters will get even more good outside looks. Loved the hustle in this game all around. Good JOB Kings! If you had told me 2-1 before this roadtrip, I would have said hell yeah! Now time for some home cookin and the players feeding off of the home crowd!

 

[IfAt1st]

From the way Omri looked when he was walking up to take those crucial FT's, I could have SWORN he was going to make both, and certainly make one of them.
He seemed so focused, intent on being the one to put his foot on the Cav's necks and close them out.

I was shocked that he missed both - he just about single-handedly won the game for us, and he choked on the one area where it IS just him winning the game for us (from the free throw line).

Odd. Just odd.

 

[Kingster]

I am well aware of the value of blocking out -- try to get around me for a rebound some day and you will find yourself very well acquainted with the middle of my back by the end of the day. But you know what? I will also have grabbed a ton of rebounds, as interestingly one of the great advantages of blcoking out is that it puts me closer to the ball than you and let's me have first shot at it unless it kicks long.

I have never bought it as the never ending excuse for our endless stream of pathetic rebounding PFs who "block out" their man to the tune of getting doubled up on the glass every night. Shareef, Mikki, now we've got Landry. The great distinction between being a crappy rebounder and being "really good at blocking out" is whether somebody likes you enough to make excuses for you, not actual play on the court.

I guess it all has to do with expectations. My expectations on Landry's rebounding is about the same as Beno's defense. The may have the willingness, but they don't have the ability so it just doesn't bother me a lot at this point. Eventually they will either be coming off the bench or traded.

 

[Asaf]

I am well aware of the value of blocking out -- try to get around me for a rebound some day and you will find yourself very well acquainted with the middle of my back by the end of the day. But you know what? I will also have grabbed a ton of rebounds, as interestingly one of the great advantages of blcoking out is that it puts me closer to the ball than you and let's me have first shot at it unless it kicks long.

I have never bought it as the never ending excuse for our endless stream of pathetic rebounding PFs who "block out" their man to the tune of getting doubled up on the glass every night. Shareef, Mikki, now we've got Landry. The great distinction between being a crappy rebounder and being "really good at blocking out" is whether somebody likes you enough to make excuses for you, not actual play on the court.

As long as the team grabs its rebounds, I don't think it matters who grabs them. If Cousins, JT, and Dally (and Whiteside, when he gets thrown into the action) grab enough rebounds, maybe it's enough for Landry to "just box out" and make their life easier. You can't have four players in double-digit rebounding every night. Now that we have added some good rebounders, the numbers of the other players will probably go down somewhat since they won't have to clean up for the big guys. For example, Chris Bosh only grabbed one rebound in Miami's victory over the Nets today, but apparently it didn't hurt his team too much..

 

[SacTownKid]

I have never once bought into the "oh he's a crap rebounder but he boxes out!" line of excuse making, for anybody, and I certainly don't for Landry.

You can have the "dominant rebounding PF" and I'll take the team that wins the rebounding battle. When we start losing on the boards by 5 or more on a nightly basis there might be cause for concern, right now, there isn't.

 

[Bricklayer]

You can have the "dominant rebounding PF" and I'll take the team that wins the rebounding battle. When we start losing on the boards by 5 or more on a nightly basis there might be cause for concern, right now, there isn't.

We are 25th in the league in rebounding right now. 19th in differential. Having great rebounders on the roster does NOT bequal being a good rebounding team unless said great rebounders are the guys getting the minutes. We've got 4. Our great rebounding guard missed the first game. And our great rebounding bigs have been a) too young b) hurt and c) out of favor. Leaving guys like Landry to nibble daintily on the glass.

And it doesn't work anyway. I don't care what the rest of your lineup is like, if you aren't getting at least 8ish from your PF, you've got problems. Been very few great teams I can recall ith a bad rebounding PF. Rebounding isn't some threshhold stat where all you have to do is barely win it and you've won the day. The more the merrier. Every extra rebound you get and they don't is an extra possession/shot for you and one less for them. If we assume a TS% of 50% (the only time you will ever hear me mention that stat) you are basically talking about something like a 2pt swing for every rebound you miss and they get (on your extra possession you would have gotten 1pt on average, and on their extra possesion they would get 1pt on average, so you lose a possession, they gain one = 2 points). Its not that far off of a turnover.

And just to remind everybody what we are talking about, we aren't talking about Carl grabbing 7, or 6 or even 5 boards. We are talking about back to back 3reb games. Its embarrassing anybody would even try to defend that. Where's Charlie Villanueva when you need him.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Over 3 games, we are the 10th best team in the league in defensive rebounding %, and the 29th best team in the league at opponents' FG%. Our rebounding differential should pick up once we do better at preventing layups in transition.

 

[kingstalkingpoints]

Paul Westphal. F for his awful offensive scheme for the final three minutes

 

[gunks]

We are 25th in the league in rebounding right now. 19th in differential. Having great rebounders on the roster does NOT bequal being a good rebounding team unless said great rebounders are the guys getting the minutes. We've got 4. Our great rebounding guard missed the first game. And our great rebounding bigs have been a) too young b) hurt and c) out of favor. Leaving guys like Landry to nibble daintily on the glass.

And it doesn't work anyway. I don't care what the rest of your lineup is like, if you aren't getting at least 8ish from your PF, you've got problems. Been very few great teams I can recall ith a bad rebounding PF. Rebounding isn't some threshhold stat where all you have to do is barely win it and you've won the day. The more the merrier. Every extra rebound you get and they don't is an extra possession/shot for you and one less for them. If we assume a TS% of 50% (the only time you will ever hear me mention that stat) you are basically talking about something like a 2pt swing for every rebound you miss and they get (on your extra possession you would have gotten 1pt on average, and on their extra possesion they would get 1pt on average, so you lose a possession, they gain one = 2 points). Its not that far off of a turnover.

And just to remind everybody what we are talking about, we aren't talking about Carl grabbing 7, or 6 or even 5 boards. We are talking about back to back 3reb games. Its embarrassing anybody would even try to defend that. Where's Charlie Villanueva when you need him.

Good post. But then, like Bricklayer, I have a thing for bigs who can actually rebound...It just seems so...Right

Landry's boxoutness will be tested when he matches up with Odom on wednesday. Lamar has been killing it on the boards so far this season, 13.5 for his first two games and 14 so far tonight in 28 minutes, if he ends up with less than 8 then props to Landry's prodigous box out skills. Otherwise, ugh to that excuse.

One of the reasons I'm generally willing to overlook all the glaring flaws in JT's game is that he actually rebounds the ball, a rarity among bigs in Kings land (at least in recent years). Landry is starting to look like the Kevin Martin of PFs. He can put up points and make it look easy, but thats about all he can do. Dude is too short to play D, and his rebounding is...Undersized. I personally dont like that. With bigs, rebounding>ppg as far as I'm concerned. Like Bricklayer pointed out, each rebound is basically a 2 point swing. You can get your scoring from other positions, but your bigs NEED to rebound.

At least we have Cousins now. Boogie alone could probably average as many rpg as a Landy/Hawes frontline.

 

[Tetsujin]

With bigs rebounding>ppg as far as I'm concerned. Like Bricklayer pointed out, each rebound is basically a 2 point swing. You can get your scoring from other positions, but your bigs NEED to rebound.

That's great and all until you have a big man who is so bad offensively that its like you're playing 4 on 5 (Justin Williams, anyone?) In reality, there is no one stat that is ultimately, overbearingly more important than the others. As a player, you need to do everything reasonably well in order to stick around in the NBA.

 

[Bricklayer]

That's great and all until you have a big man who is so bad offensively that its like you're playing 4 on 5 (Justin Williams, anyone?) In reality, there is no one stat that is ultimately, overbearingly more important than the others. As a player, you need to do everything reasonably well in order to stick around in the NBA.

There are certainly stats far more important than others at various positions. Jason Kapono at SG/SF can survive in the league with only 1 skill, because its the right skill for his position. Ditto Reggie Evans at PF. Flip their skills, make Kapono's one skill the ability to rebound as a SG/SF and Evans' one skill the ability to shoot threes as a PF, and they are both out of the league. Thsi is particularly true of the big man spots, as the large number of defensive/rebounding specialists around the league illustrates. Those are the base skills. The universally useful ones.

 

[Tetsujin]

There are certainly stats far more important than others at various positions. Jason Kapono at SG/SF can survive in the league with only 1 skill, because its the right skill for his position. Ditto Reggie Evans at PF. Flip their skills, make Kapono's one skill the ability to rebound as a SG/SF and Evans' one skill the ability to shoot threes as a PF, and they are both out of the league. Thsi is particularly true of the big man spots, as the large number of defensive/rebounding specialists around the league illustrates. Those are the base skills. The universally useful ones.

This is a good point.

What I am banking on, however, is that the inherent weaknesses of the one-dimensional player or player who is weak in one category or the other can be covered up by the strengths of his teammates. Dennis Rodman could get away with not knowing left from right in regards to offense because he was playing with a team of offensively solid/ defensively brusing players (Detroit) or two of the best offensive players of all time (Chicago). It then becomes a question of whether said player's goods outweigh the bad and if the team can make up for the inherent weakness. In Landry's case, I believe he is more beneficial than detrimental and that the team can compensate for for his total inability to catch a board.

 

[Asaf]

I would say that Landry's shortcomings will probably prevent him from being a starter on a deep playoff team or a contender, but ideally, if the Kings become a team of that caliber, then Landry could be a great sixth man like he was in Houston.

 

[gunks]

Bigs who are great at offense and rebounding are rare and at a premium. Landry could easily be a 18ppg player, if he was as good a rebounder as some of those one dimensional bench bigs, then he'd be putting up some allstar numbers.

Thing is, when your 18ppg PF cant play D and is only grabbing 4 rpg, that is just as much a liability as the PF who can board at a respectable rate but only scores 7ppg on putbacks. Neither of those players starts for a contender. You can definately find players like that on an elite team's bench (as Asaf pointed out above me), but when you have a player who only plays one side of the court in your starting frontcourt, you arnt going to be making it to the finals -unless that player is rediculously good at the side of the court they play on, like Dirk on offense or Ben Wallace on D.

Landry is a VERY incomplete player, but being a decent 2nd option, his shortcomings are overlooked.

 

[Telemachus]

There are certainly stats far more important than others at various positions. Jason Kapono at SG/SF can survive in the league with only 1 skill, because its the right skill for his position. Ditto Reggie Evans at PF. Flip their skills, make Kapono's one skill the ability to rebound as a SG/SF and Evans' one skill the ability to shoot threes as a PF, and they are both out of the league. Thsi is particularly true of the big man spots, as the large number of defensive/rebounding specialists around the league illustrates. Those are the base skills. The universally useful ones.

I agree with you in theory, but I think Vladimir Radmanovic might have something to say on the matter.

 

[pshn80]

I would say that Landry's shortcomings will probably prevent him from being a starter on a deep playoff team or a contender, but ideally, if the Kings become a team of that caliber, then Landry could be a great sixth man like he was in Houston.

This is never never land. We've won two out three and Landry has had a very positive effect on the outcome. When we have a problem I'm sure we will deal with it.

 

[Ed2009]

I am happy seeing Casspi starting the season well.
But the real question is if he can maintain this level over the season.

We are this year much stronger under the basket which will open more space for him for free 3 point shots.

Currently I am simply happy to see our team winning games.

 

[Asaf]

This is never never land. We've won two out three and Landry has had a very positive effect on the outcome. When we have a problem I'm sure we will deal with it.

I completely agree. Overall I'm happy with Landry's production for us. I just think Brick also has a point that when it's time to contend and match up against players like Garnett, Odom/Gasol, Bosh, and other elite PFs, then Landry might become more of a liability as a starter, but he would still be great as a sixth man off the bench, just as he was for Houston. I'm also saying that we need to aspire to be that kind of team that has a good enough front court to be able to bring someone like him off the bench. We aren't there yet.

 

[Asaf]

I am happy seeing Casspi starting the season well.
But the real question is if he can maintain this level over the season.

Well, we will just have to wait and see. Not even Casspi himself or Westphal know the answer to this question.

I do think that this board (not you. the overall attitude expressed in this board in recent months) has beenquite bi-polar lately. A couple of weeks ago Donte was God and Casspi was a self-centered scrub who fails to see his own scrubness. Now Casspi is the starting SF of the future and Donte should stick to making youtube videos... Nobody really knows what will become of either of them, but one thing is for sure - they will both have games that will make us pull our hair out, as well as games that will make them look as future all stars. Donte will snap out of his slump at some point, and Omri will experience another slump, but hopefully both of them will be more consistant (and that's also on Westphal who needs to guide them into consistancy) and become solid contributors. Both are young and have the potential to do it. No need to throw anyone under the bus just yet.

 

[Tetsujin]

Well, we will just have to wait and see. Not even Casspi himself or Westphal know the answer to this question.

I do think that this board (not you. the overall attitude expressed in this board in recent months) has beenquite bi-polar lately. A couple of weeks ago Donte was God and Casspi was a self-centered scrub who fails to see his own scrubness. Now Casspi is the starting SF of the future and Donte should stick to making youtube videos... Nobody really knows what will become of either of them, but one thing is for sure - they will both have games that will make us pull our hair out, as well as games that will make them look as future all stars. Donte will snap out of his slump at some point, and Omri will experience another slump, but hopefully both of them will be more consistant (and that's also on Westphal who needs to guide them into consistancy) and become solid contributors. Both are young and have the potential to do it. No need to throw anyone under the bus just yet.

Just wait until we really start winning again. I'm anticipating Peja vs. C-Webb part II


PS: I certainly hope we don't have to go through that drivel again.

 

[SacTownKid]

Over 3 games, we are the 10th best team in the league in defensive rebounding %, and the 29th best team in the league at opponents' FG%. Our rebounding differential should pick up once we do better at preventing layups in transition.

That sounds about right.