[Grades] Grades v. Bucks 2/1/2016

[macadocious]

I feel like some people watched a different game from Marco than I did. I watched numerous bad shots and off balance shots and terrible behind the back dribbling and some ill advised passes. The difference is, a few of those shots went in and a few of those passes actually got to people. It doesn't mean they were good shots or passes.

 

[Blob]

The guys that shoot 60% don't normally do anything other than dunks and putbacks. Koufos' main arsenal is his half hook so his FG% is right where it should be.

He's just going through a bad couple weeks. All players go through slumps.

Fair statement but Karl sold Koufos in training camp as better player than his days in Denver and guy playing in the shadow of Gasol primed to breakout. The shots he misses are point blank easy shots. If we are going to grade him based on watered down standard then I guess he gets a passing grade.. Very good on defense. Very disappointing on offense. Stone hands. C+at best.

 

[Kings_of_California]

Koufos isn't fancy but he gets the job done. He's limited in his abilities. With that said, he's respectable on D, solid on the boards and passable on O.

Honestly, I find it hard to complain about him, especially as our backup big. He's had some bad games, but i'll take him over most other backup bigs.

This team also has far more pressing needs to tend to anyway. Koufos is fine in my book.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I was happy we signed Koufos (called for him right after the Philly trade) but man, his touch around the hoop can be maddening!

 

[The_Jamal]

Fair statement but Karl sold Koufos in training camp as better player than his days in Denver and guy playing in the shadow of Gasol primed to breakout. The shots he misses are point blank easy shots. If we are going to grade him based on watered down standard then I guess he gets a passing grade.. Very good on defense. Very disappointing on offense. Stone hands. C+at best.

Koufos has also played 42% of his minutes at PF this season, which is an understandable reason for some of his decline this year. Just not fair to ask him to guard the PF position in today's NBA. He's a rim protector who you basically plant 10 feet around the rim on both ends of the court. Over the past 4 seasons, he's been incredibly productive doing just that.

I think we thought that he and Cousins could get run together, but it just hasn't worked out.

 

[Boogie_Fever]

Koufos has also played 42% of his minutes at PF this season, which is an understandable reason for some of his decline this year. Just not fair to ask him to guard the PF position in today's NBA. He's a rim protector who you basically plant 10 feet around the rim on both ends of the court. Over the past 4 seasons, he's been incredibly productive doing just that.

I think we thought that he and Cousins could get run together, but it just hasn't worked out.

That's been the glaring theme of this season and that's playing guys out of their comfort zones just to be able to play how George Karl wants and not to the strengths of his players. Demarcus Cousins and Kostas Koufos should not be chasing guys in the perimeter. Marco Belinelli should not be counted on as the first option on offense for the 2nd unit. He's a spot up shooter and an occasional playmaker. Rudy Gay and Omri Casspi are not power forwards. Ben McLemore should get more than a few shots a game and have some plays ran for him. His lack of production I feel is more due to the lack of minutes and opportunities than him actually being terrible. Lack of offensive structure leading to tough shots in the half court after not being able to pace their way to an easy shot.

 

[VF21]

That's been the glaring theme of this season and that's playing guys out of their comfort zones just to be able to play how George Karl wants and not to the strengths of his players. Demarcus Cousins and Kostas Koufos should not be chasing guys in the perimeter. Marco Belinelli should not be counted on as the first option on offense for the 2nd unit. He's a spot up shooter and an occasional playmaker. Rudy Gay and Omri Casspi are not power forwards. Ben McLemore should get more than a few shots a game and have some plays ran for him. His lack of production I feel is more due to the lack of minutes and opportunities than him actually being terrible. Lack of offensive structure leading to tough shots in the half court after not being able to pace their way to an easy shot.

Exactly!

 

[k_dubb90]

Koufos always played like that. He never learned when to take his time and when to put the shot up quick. That's why he is a role player in this league. And that's why some Grizzlies fans were happy to see him go.
He is excactly what we expected him to be. A solid guy, who can clog the paint, is a great rim defender and will rebound the ball and score occasionally. Given minutes KK will give you a double double every night.
It's actually pretty difficult to find a better backup center, who can bang with the big guys - Baynes? Asik? He is right on par with these guys or even a bit ahead.

And Asik has worse hands and touch than koufos, I don't know if you seen any Pelicans games but it's pretty cringeworthy

 

[Blob]

That's been the glaring theme of this season and that's playing guys out of their comfort zones just to be able to play how George Karl wants and not to the strengths of his players. Demarcus Cousins and Kostas Koufos should not be chasing guys in the perimeter. Marco Belinelli should not be counted on as the first option on offense for the 2nd unit. He's a spot up shooter and an occasional playmaker. Rudy Gay and Omri Casspi are not power forwards. Ben McLemore should get more than a few shots a game and have some plays ran for him. His lack of production I feel is more due to the lack of minutes and opportunities than him actually being terrible. Lack of offensive structure leading to tough shots in the half court after not being able to pace their way to an easy shot.

The counter argument is any good player and quality starter is capable of playing more than one position in today's NBA. And the second point is for Karl to play more conventional line-up i.e. Rudy and Omri exclusively a SF, Rondo and Darren exclusively a PG and Koufos and Boogie exclusively a C would require him to play less talented players over more talented players ( Acy as back-up PF instead of Omri or Koufos, and Marco as back-up SG instead of Darren).

Its a bit of dilemma to be sure but I am in favor or putting the most talented players on the floor.

When you are advocating for a more conventional line-up you are advocating for a less talented team on the floor. Karl is not the right coach for this team because he's not a leader and he doesn't inspire or emphasize defense but I don't have much of an issue with his playing rotation, besides playing Marco over Seth.

 

[Boogie_Fever]

The counter argument is any good player and quality starter is capable of playing more than one position in today's NBA. And the second point is for Karl to play more conventional line-up i.e. Rudy and Omri exclusively a SF, Rondo and Darren exclusively a PG and Koufos and Boogie exclusively a C would require him to play less talented players over more talented players ( Acy as back-up PF instead of Omri or Koufos, and Marco as back-up SG instead of Darren).

Its a bit of dilemma to be sure but I am in favor or putting the most talented players on the floor.

When you are advocating for a more conventional line-up you are advocating for a less talented team on the floor. Karl is not the right coach for this team because he's not a leader and he doesn't inspire or emphasize defense but I don't have much of an issue with his playing rotation, besides playing Marco over Seth.

Less talented players but FIT the postions and the roles they are meant for. Talented players being put in terrible positions do you no good anyways. That's why you scheme and adjust to your teams strengths. This team is meant to be a slower paced team with the occasional leak outs to McLemore and WCS for quick buckets. In your half court sets, structure your offense around getting easier looks for Boogie and Rudy while throwing in some occasional sets for McLemore/Casspi/Belinelli/Collison. This next coaching hire has got to be a homerun hire or this team has no choice but to trade off its talent to try to rebuild again.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Less talented players but FIT the postions and the roles they are meant for. Talented players being put in terrible positions do you no good anyways. That's why you scheme and adjust to your teams strengths. This team is meant to be a slower paced team with the occasional leak outs to McLemore and WCS for quick buckets. In your half court sets, structure your offense around getting easier looks for Boogie and Rudy while throwing in some occasional sets for McLemore/Casspi/Belinelli/Collison. This next coaching hire has got to be a homerun hire or this team has no choice but to trade off its talent to try to rebuild again.

Talent>position
Pretty much the whole league seems to go down that route.
Only problem occurs, when the player you play out of position hurts you more on the defensive end than he helps you on offense (see Clippers brilliant plan to play J.Smith as backup center ).
You can certainly say, that this is the case for DC at SG, but given the lack of production and defensive woes you get out of Marco it might be debatable.
Acy vs Casspi at PF is not up for a debate. Acy is a nice jolt of energy from time to time, but Casspi is by far the superior player.

 

[Blob]

Less talented players but FIT the postions and the roles they are meant for. Talented players being put in terrible positions do you no good anyways. That's why you scheme and adjust to your teams strengths. This team is meant to be a slower paced team with the occasional leak outs to McLemore and WCS for quick buckets. In your half court sets, structure your offense around getting easier looks for Boogie and Rudy while throwing in some occasional sets for McLemore/Casspi/Belinelli/Collison. This next coaching hire has got to be a homerun hire or this team has no choice but to trade off its talent to try to rebuild again.

Okay just so we are clear you are advocating more playing time for Marco (over Darren) who is one of the worst players in the league (as reflected in RPM) and playing Omri less (if he can only play SF) though he is one of the best off the bench players in the NBA and Top 5 in making 3s??? There's plenty to criticize Karl over. You are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[mac]

That's been the glaring theme of this season and that's playing guys out of their comfort zones just to be able to play how George Karl wants and not to the strengths of his players. Demarcus Cousins and Kostas Koufos should not be chasing guys in the perimeter. Marco Belinelli should not be counted on as the first option on offense for the 2nd unit. He's a spot up shooter and an occasional playmaker. Rudy Gay and Omri Casspi are not power forwards. Ben McLemore should get more than a few shots a game and have some plays ran for him. His lack of production I feel is more due to the lack of minutes and opportunities than him actually being terrible. Lack of offensive structure leading to tough shots in the half court after not being able to pace their way to an easy shot.

Regarding KK - does the roster allow for it? There's no winning for Karl here - play it one way like having Rudy at the 4 and fans here will be crucifying him for going small and playing Rudy/Casspi out of position. Play big and you have KK or Cousins guarding the perimeter with the way the league is going with stretch 4s. Something has to give - you can't have KK and WCS or Quincy on the court together for long stretches either or our offense would die.

 

[Padrino]

Talent>position
Pretty much the whole league seems to go down that route.
Only problem occurs, when the player you play out of position hurts you more on the defensive end than he helps you on offense (see Clippers brilliant plan to play J.Smith as backup center ).
You can certainly say, that this is the case for DC at SG, but given the lack of production and defensive woes you get out of Marco it might be debatable.
Acy vs Casspi at PF is not up for a debate. Acy is a nice jolt of energy from time to time, but Casspi is by far the superior player.

pretty much the whole league wants to go down that route, but absent the necessary talent to play this kind of fad-level "positionless basketball," wouldn't it be prudent to maximize the skills of your best players at the positions where they're most likely to succeed? there should always be wiggle room in a coach's rotation to swing a player up or down as match-ups dictate, but making a philosophy out of "positionless basketball" is a bit useless without "positionless talent." everybody would love to have a draymond green on their roster, but as far as i can tell, there aren't too many guys like that across the entire nba landscape. as always, it boils down to coaching the roster you have, rather than the roster you wish you had...

 

[KingsFanGER]

pretty much the whole league wants to go down that route, but absent the necessary talent to play this kind of fad-level "positionless basketball," wouldn't it be prudent to maximize the skills of your best players at the positions where they're most likely to succeed? there should always be wiggle room in a coach's rotation to swing a player up or down as match-ups dictate, but making a philosophy out of "positionless basketball" is a bit useless without "positionless talent." everybody would love to have a draymond green on their roster, but as far as i can tell, there aren't too many guys like that across the entire nba landscape. as always, it boils down to coaching the roster you have, rather than the roster you wish you had...

Thinking strictly in positions is pretty oldschool.
It's more about skillset, grit and physical attributes of your players as well as the opponents.
You don't force positionless basketball. That's why I mentioned Josh Smith at center. When you are at a serious disadvantage on D and your offense doesn't get enough boost to overcome this disadvantage, moving players out of position doesn't make sense.

Would the Kings benefit from playing more positionless basketball. I think so. It's pretty much a necessity for success nowadays. The question is, if we are able to do it. And we agree on the point, that it's pretty difficult to do so with our roster.
Still I stand by my point, that talent>position as long as you can get away with it on D.
So Casspi at PF? Yes certainly works against most teams and changes our offense significantly, because we add another floor spacer.
DC at SG? Might get away with it versus 3 guard lineups, but the offensive benefit is rather small.

 

[Boogie_Fever]

Okay just so we are clear you are advocating more playing time for Marco (over Darren) who is one of the worst players in the league (as reflected in RPM) and playing Omri less (if he can only play SF) though he is one of the best off the bench players in the NBA and Top 5 in making 3s??? There's plenty to criticize Karl over. You are barking up the wrong tree.

I'm advocating to play Ben more and have Marco have less playmaking responsibilities. This team just does not have the personnel to play "positionless" basketball so instead of doing that, keep guys at the their natural positions and build your rotations around that.

 

[Padrino]

Thinking strictly in positions is pretty oldschool.
It's more about skillset, grit and physical attributes of your players as well as the opponents.
You don't force positionless basketball. That's why I mentioned Josh Smith at center. When you are at a serious disadvantage on D and your offense doesn't get enough boost to overcome this disadvantage, moving players out of position doesn't make sense.

Would the Kings benefit from playing more positionless basketball. I think so. It's pretty much a necessity for success nowadays. The question is, if we are able to do it. And we agree on the point, that it's pretty difficult to do so with our roster.
Still I stand by my point, that talent>position as long as you can get away with it on D.
So Casspi at PF? Yes certainly works against most teams and changes our offense significantly, because we add another floor spacer.
DC at SG? Might get away with it versus 3 guard lineups, but the offensive benefit is rather small.

it is, but i don't think my post reflects a desire to think "strictly in positions." i'm just looking at the roster the kings have to work with. again, absent the flexibility of a talented roster that can truly play "positionless basketball," perhaps there is value in the comfort level, experience, and skill set that each player wields in their most "natural" position. and the stats tend to bear out the fact that the kings have been more successful this season on both sides of the ball when they play their most talented players at their most natural positions:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612758&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*40

as it turns out, the kings' rather traditionally-configured and rather "old school" starting lineup strikes one of the best balances between the team's offensive and defensive ratings. this is what matters to me; can a lineup achieve some measure success on both sides of the ball?

of the lineups that karl has given a substantial amount of run together this season--and perhaps not so surprisingly--the kings' worst defensive lineups tend towards small ball, and their best defensive lineups tend to be bigger or more traditional. there are some noteworthy exceptions where playing a more "positionless" style has yielded results on both ends, but unfortunately, karl has given the most 4th quarter burn to lineups that are more "positionless" and are poor defensively. and tellingly, that traditional and effective starting lineup sees no time together in the 4th quarter...

so while i'm open to the idea of "positionless basketball," i will always maintain that you coach the roster you have, and not the roster you wish you had. the kings' simply don't have the roster flexibility to play "positionless" for long stretches without an adverse impact to their defensive efficiency...

 

[CuzistanKing]

it is, but i don't think my post reflects a desire to think "strictly in positions." i'm just looking at the roster the kings have to work with. again, absent the flexibility of a talented roster that can truly play "positionless basketball," perhaps there is value in the comfort level, experience, and skill set that each player wields in their most "natural" position. and the stats tend to bear out the fact that the kings have been more successful this season on both sides of the ball when they play their most talented players at their most natural positions:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612758&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*40

as it turns out, the kings' rather traditionally-configured and rather "old school" starting lineup strikes one of the best balances between the team's offensive and defensive ratings. this is what matters to me; can a lineup achieve some measure success on both sides of the ball?

of the lineups that karl has given a substantial amount of run together this season--and perhaps not so surprisingly--the kings' worst defensive lineups tend towards small ball, and their best defensive lineups tend to be bigger or more traditional. there are some noteworthy exceptions where playing a more "positionless" style has yielded results on both ends, but unfortunately, karl has given the most 4th quarter burn to lineups that are more "positionless" and are poor defensively. and tellingly, that traditional and effective starting lineup sees no time together in the 4th quarter...

so while i'm open to the idea of "positionless basketball," i will always maintain that you coach the roster you have, and not the roster you wish you had. the kings' simply don't have the roster flexibility to play "positionless" for long stretches without an adverse impact to their defensive efficiency...

Thank you, I was just looking up these exact same stats. It seems that everyone talking about "positionless" or "most talented" lineups only looks at the offensive side of the floor. Our offense is fine, people! It's ugly at times, but not scoring enough points is NOT why this team is underachieving. Defense is why we won't (or will) reach the playoffs. You have to play the lineups that give you the most effort/success on defense and offense will mostly come naturally, based on talent alone. Even looking at empirical data, most of the success in early January came when we suddenly started playing big and there was a noticeable shift in rotations and minutes (more WCS, less DC + RR, etc.)

 

[Ron]

pretty much the whole league wants to go down that route, but absent the necessary talent to play this kind of fad-level "positionless basketball," wouldn't it be prudent to maximize the skills of your best players at the positions where they're most likely to succeed? there should always be wiggle room in a coach's rotation to swing a player up or down as match-ups dictate, but making a philosophy out of "positionless basketball" is a bit useless without "positionless talent." everybody would love to have a draymond green on their roster, but as far as i can tell, there aren't too many guys like that across the entire nba landscape. as always, it boils down to coaching the roster you have, rather than the roster you wish you had...

I beg to differ about Kings' lack of "positionless talent".
I don't have the time to argue that point in depth (I'm on my smartphone...), but I think Omri and Rudy can both provide sufficient (and at times stellar) performance in 3 positions (SG, SF, PF) on both ends of the court - they can both guard bigger or smaller opponents, and are very good rebounders for their positions (BTW, while Rajon Rondo is one-dimensional at PG, he's also a great rebounder for his position).
Then you have WCS, who can play PF or C defensively, guarding exceptionally well both against small shooters on the perimeter and against big men in the paint. On the other end there's DMC, who can play PF or C offensively, scoring from any range.
Add Collison who is quite natural at PG & SG, Bellinelli who can play some SF or even do some playmaking at
times (like tonight), and Acy who is a classic tweener (SF/PF), and I feel that we have one of the most versatile rosters in the league.

 

[Boogie_Fever]

I beg to differ about Kings' lack of "positionless talent".
I don't have the time to argue that point in depth (I'm on my smartphone...), but I think Omri and Rudy can both provide sufficient (and at times stellar) performance in 3 positions (SG, SF, PF) on both ends of the court - they can both guard bigger or smaller opponents, and are very good rebounders for their positions (BTW, while Rajon Rondo is one-dimensional at PG, he's also a great rebounder for his position).
Then you have WCS, who can play PF or C defensively, guarding exceptionally well both against small shooters on the perimeter and against big men in the paint. On the other end there's DMC, who can play PF or C offensively, scoring from any range.
Add Collison who is quite natural at PG & SG, Bellinelli who can play some SF or even do some playmaking at
times (like tonight), and Acy who is a classic tweener (SF/PF), and I feel that we have one of the most versatile rosters in the league.

The problem isn't offensive versatility its that some of these guys lack defensive versatility. Players aren't assigned positions by what they do on offense but more on who they can guard on defense.

 

[Bricklayer]

Koufos has also played 42% of his minutes at PF this season, which is an understandable reason for some of his decline this year. Just not fair to ask him to guard the PF position in today's NBA. He's a rim protector who you basically plant 10 feet around the rim on both ends of the court. Over the past 4 seasons, he's been incredibly productive doing just that.

I think we thought that he and Cousins could get run together, but it just hasn't worked out.

I have some doubts about that percentage number simply because I have spent some effort this season sending corrective emails to various websites that Boogie is NOT a PF when he is out there with WCS. For some reason a number of places are determined to call WCS the C in any frontcourt pairings he is involved in, even when he is out there with career long centers who are much more massive than he is.

 

[funkykingston]

it is, but i don't think my post reflects a desire to think "strictly in positions." i'm just looking at the roster the kings have to work with. again, absent the flexibility of a talented roster that can truly play "positionless basketball," perhaps there is value in the comfort level, experience, and skill set that each player wields in their most "natural" position. and the stats tend to bear out the fact that the kings have been more successful this season on both sides of the ball when they play their most talented players at their most natural positions:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612758&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*40

as it turns out, the kings' rather traditionally-configured and rather "old school" starting lineup strikes one of the best balances between the team's offensive and defensive ratings. this is what matters to me; can a lineup achieve some measure success on both sides of the ball?

of the lineups that karl has given a substantial amount of run together this season--and perhaps not so surprisingly--the kings' worst defensive lineups tend towards small ball, and their best defensive lineups tend to be bigger or more traditional. there are some noteworthy exceptions where playing a more "positionless" style has yielded results on both ends, but unfortunately, karl has given the most 4th quarter burn to lineups that are more "positionless" and are poor defensively. and tellingly, that traditional and effective starting lineup sees no time together in the 4th quarter...

so while i'm open to the idea of "positionless basketball," i will always maintain that you coach the roster you have, and not the roster you wish you had. the kings' simply don't have the roster flexibility to play "positionless" for long stretches without an adverse impact to their defensive efficiency...

It's worth noting that both the Kings best lineup and worst lineup (statistically speaking) have Marco in them.

Koufos/Cousins/Casspi/Belinelli/Rondo is actually the best performing defensive team, rebounds well, and has very good passing and shooting numbers while playing at Karl's preferred pace.

Meanwhile Rondo/Collison/Belinelli/Gay/Koufos is pretty terrible across the board. Poor defensively and offensively, weak on the boards and maybe most surprising, low on assists and with poor shooting percentages.

Karl has said he likes having extra ball handlers and playmakers on the floor as a rationale for going to a smaller lineup at times but this lineup not only has the normal drawback of a small ball team (defense and rebounding) but it isn't providing the expected advantages (shooting and passing) either!

Obviously these lineup stats aren't normalized for the fact that some are going against opposing starters and some against opposing benches but there's still some really interesting info to be gleaned here.

One bit that verifies statistically what my eyes have told me is that while the often used starting five of Rondo, McLemore, Casspi, Gay & Cousins isn't bad, replacing either Casspi or Gay with WCS is significantly better.

George Karl would have a field day with the Warriors roster but as it turns out this Kings team works best with much more traditional lineups.

 

[The_Jamal]

I have some doubts about that percentage number simply because I have spent some effort this season sending corrective emails to various websites that Boogie is NOT a PF when he is out there with WCS. For some reason a number of places are determined to call WCS the C in any frontcourt pairings he is involved in, even when he is out there with career long centers who are much more massive than he is.

Regardless, just using the eye-test, it's obvious Koufos hasn't been in the best spots this season. He's just not a guy who can step away from the basket and defend and he's been in that situation quite a bit this year. Bit disappointing as I had high hopes for the Koufos-Boogie pairing.

 

[pshn80]

it is, but i don't think my post reflects a desire to think "strictly in positions." i'm just looking at the roster the kings have to work with. again, absent the flexibility of a talented roster that can truly play "positionless basketball," perhaps there is value in the comfort level, experience, and skill set that each player wields in their most "natural" position. and the stats tend to bear out the fact that the kings have been more successful this season on both sides of the ball when they play their most talented players at their most natural positions:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612758&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*40

as it turns out, the kings' rather traditionally-configured and rather "old school" starting lineup strikes one of the best balances between the team's offensive and defensive ratings. this is what matters to me; can a lineup achieve some measure success on both sides of the ball?

of the lineups that karl has given a substantial amount of run together this season--and perhaps not so surprisingly--the kings' worst defensive lineups tend towards small ball, and their best defensive lineups tend to be bigger or more traditional. there are some noteworthy exceptions where playing a more "positionless" style has yielded results on both ends, but unfortunately, karl has given the most 4th quarter burn to lineups that are more "positionless" and are poor defensively. and tellingly, that traditional and effective starting lineup sees no time together in the 4th quarter...

so while i'm open to the idea of "positionless basketball," i will always maintain that you coach the roster you have, and not the roster you wish you had. the kings' simply don't have the roster flexibility to play "positionless" for long stretches without an adverse impact to their defensive efficiency...

I can agree with this but I also appreciate that it is a tough balancing for Karl. Good luck on your choices.

 

[Ron]

The problem isn't offensive versatility its that some of these guys lack defensive versatility. Players aren't assigned positions by what they do on offense but more on who they can guard on defense.

Fair enough. I think we have defensive versatility as well.
Note that I DID mention D in my post.