[Grades] Grades v. Bobhornets 1/4/2014

Is there any possible way for this team to not suck at D as currently constructed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 24.6%
  • No

    Votes: 43 75.4%

  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .
Because I don't know for sure. It was something I thought would be interesting for discussion. I guess most around here don't want to discuss that. That's fine. No big deal. Plus, if I was really pushy about it I'd probably be banned from this site. Others have for coming down hard on DMC.

No need for you to get personal with me. I didn't get personal with you. You don't know anything about me or my life. It's just basketball. None of this really matters all that much in the big scheme of things in most of our lives.
Dude, if you think Cuz is a problem, start a thread, back it up with analysis and examples, and I'm sure people will discuss. You might not get the reaction you want, but provide evidence and posters generally will discuss the evidence rather than the poster.

If you're sincere, I'm sure we'll see a new, well thought out thread in a few minutes.
 
Yes, I don't think our media department and Grant/Jerry building IT up into something he's not has helped. Good player, but you'd think Cuz and Gay play second fiddle and are just along for the ride given how IT is talked about. Can't tell me some of that hasn't gone to his head and he thinks he's literally as important and on the same level as Gay/Cuz, which is a problem.

And so do some of his fans, and the media. It's not helping. Cause there is a clear divide between player 1 and 2 and the 3rd in our big 3 in talent. And they are in completely different income tax brackets. I suspect that matters at this point.
 
I think you just don't like the topic that I bring up. We all want to believe that Boogie is the savior of our franchise, and God do I hope he is. I think there may be some denial going on about his character, leadership, etc. Sure he's putting up monster numbers but he's not good enough to make his team a winning team. I don't know why that is. Sure, we have a bunch of garbage outside of our "Big 3" but I just feel like our Big 3 should be good enough to be close to a .500 team, at least. Maybe it's not his fault. Maybe it's the coaching. Maybe it's IT's fault. I don't know. I just think there is a big time chemistry issue on this team and there has to be somebody at the heart of it.

maybe... and i'm just spitballing here... but maybe it has something to do with the fact that basketball is, i dunno, a team sport...
 
Because I don't know for sure. It was something I thought would be interesting for discussion. I guess most around here don't want to discuss that. That's fine. No big deal. Plus, if I was really pushy about it I'd probably be banned from this site. Others have for coming down hard on DMC.

No need for you to get personal with me. I didn't get personal with you. You don't know anything about me or my life. It's just basketball. None of this really matters all that much in the big scheme of things in most of our lives.

Patently untrue. People only get banned for either trolling, spamming, repeatedly using profanity, or other such offense. If we banned people for coming down too hard on DMC - or any other player for that matter - a whole lot of our best posters would be gone.

You've been here since the end of October. This forum is an incredible group of people from all walks of life from all corners of the earth. And one other thing? THEY KNOW BASKETBALL and THEY KNOW THE SACRAMENTO KINGS. If you're going to bring up something for discussion, you need to be prepared to back it up. Generalities and vague statements just don't cut it.
 
Patently untrue. People only get banned for either trolling, spamming, repeatedly using profanity, or other such offense. If we banned people for coming down too hard on DMC - or any other player for that matter - a whole lot of our best posters would be gone.

You've been here since the end of October. This forum is an incredible group of people from all walks of life from all corners of the earth. And one other thing? THEY KNOW BASKETBALL and THEY KNOW THE SACRAMENTO KINGS. If you're going to bring up something for discussion, you need to be prepared to back it up. Generalities and vague statements just don't cut it.

No thanks. I think I'll take my business elsewhere. This site has an agenda. DMC good. IT bad. MT bad. If you don't go along with that agenda, you get bashed by you, Brick, Rain, baja, and a few others. Good luck.
 
No thanks. I think I'll take my business elsewhere. This site has an agenda. DMC good. IT bad. MT bad. If you don't go along with that agenda, you get bashed by you, Brick, Rain, baja, and a few others. Good luck.
Don't mistake agreement for some kind of agenda. I don't think it's nearly that much of a coordinated effort.
 
No thanks. I think I'll take my business elsewhere. This site has an agenda. DMC good. IT bad. MT bad. If you don't go along with that agenda, you get bashed by you, Brick, Rain, baja, and a few others. Good luck.

Gotta love the "take my ball and go home" agenda. That's always a winner. I seriously gotta ask, why take waste the time to write it? Just do it.
 
No thanks. I think I'll take my business elsewhere. This site has an agenda. DMC good. IT bad. MT bad. If you don't go along with that agenda, you get bashed by you, Brick, Rain, baja, and a few others. Good luck.

I feel very left out of the villain's list. Sob!
 
The fact that anybody is even suggesting we get rid of Cousins is blowing my mind. He's the only untouchable player on this team, for a very good reason. He's one of the rarest quantities in the game: A center that can dominate on offense. Defensive role playing bigs are rare, and expensive, but a big that can dominate the offensive end the way Cousins can comes around once in a generation (they used to come around more often, but times have changed). Centers that can play half court offense like Cuz does are what carry you in a slowed down, grind it out playoff series. Cousins is the kind of player that, even when the opposing team knows exactly what he's capable of, knows exactly how he gets his points, they focus their entire game plan on stopping him...and he just goes out there and scores at will anyway, because he can't be stopped. You don't ship that player out, even if he becomes disgruntled, you find a way to make him happy (and given his passion for the game, I think simply playing winning ball would make him happy). Our current team is not well put together. We knew this going in to the season. Our ownership group has been in charge of this team for all of 32 games. There have been some surprises this season, both good and bad, but that should come as no surprise to Kings fans. We've upgraded talent with the Gay trade, but talent wasn't really our core issue to begin with. We're making strides, but we're not there yet. Our best player is 23. We play like a young team. We have time. Breathe.
 
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Perimeter guys will continue to torch this team as long as:

a.) IT remains the starting PG, and all we have a SG are Ben (who's pretty raw), Thornton(Chuck-a-lot and not good with man/team D), and Jimmer(who seems too scared to call out team mates for plays, so instead he either shoots that 3 when he's free or only when a cutter accidentally rotates in front of him).
b.) IT goes to the bench as back-up PG, and all we have a SG are Ben (who's pretty raw), Thornton(Chuck-a-lot and not good with man/team D), and Jimmer(who seems too scared to call out team mates for plays, so instead he either shoots that 3 when he's free or only when a cutter accidentally rotates in front of him).

In my equations seems like the common denominator for this problem is our SG spot and not IT.

IMO, the management would not give up on McLemore just yet. Too early.
So the better option is to trade MT and Fredette. But for who? Ask Horton.

Next issue...Our front court will not be able to maximize its strength as long as:

a.) JT remains no more than garbageman that is not quick enough to give DMC a good space to operate down low.

So what's up? Well after all these years, I think JT should now go. DMC might be more suited playing with either a stretch 4 (i.e. Williams), a quick-footed garbage man(i.e. Landry) or with a 7 footer than moves him to PF. Gray can be a good pair we want that C next to DMC to have some offense. Or N'Diaye can rotate just to save DMC some fouls.

We don't have much time if we even dream of the playoffs. So either we tank now, which is fine with me, by not trading any of Jimmer/MT/JT or make some movements within this month.
 
So what's up? Well after all these years, I think JT should now go. DMC might be more suited playing with either a stretch 4 (i.e. Williams), Gray can be a good pair we want that C next to DMC to have some offense. Or N'Diaye can rotate just to save DMC some fouls.
No. The only player who ever worked in that role was Robert Horry, and even he was disposable, and just came in and accomplished no more than the pure PFs did next to the same centers (Thorpe before Horry in Houston, Grant before Horry in L.A.).

a quick-footed garbage man(i.e. Landry)
No. Not what Landry is anyway. He's a rebounding/defensively challenged black hole of a scorer. The idea of a roleplayer is right though. If Cousins was a shotblocker, the guys who have always worked best next to the great centers have been hard working tough guy defensive stalwart PFs. Oakley, PJ Brown, Dale and Antonio Davis, AC Green, Kurt Rambis, Thorpe, Rodman etc. Somebody to watch your center's back and clean up all the dirty work he can't.

or with a 7 footer than moves him to PF.
No. I myself was of the opinion that you could shift Cuz to PF before this season began, but times change -- he's putting up staggering numbers against centers. You don't go move a guy dominating at that level to a new position. You change everything around him, but not him.

The one missing category, which has been talked about ad nauseam, is a defensive PF, and preferably long shotblocking PF, or a center with enough mobility to fake it as one. We had one for a single season in Dalembert. We passed on not one, but TWO of them last year as Geoff put the cherry on top of his career by drafting a small tweener bust instead of Andre Drummond, or John Henson, both of whom he brought in and worked out but could not see the talent in. Probably because they didn't shoot enough threes. Now we are discussing if Larry Sanders is really available, and if he is, whether its worth the risk, because that's the fit.

Cousins is actually already better then Brad Daugherty, but that is the closest comparison for a major center, and the fit next to him was not just one, but TWO long shotblocking forwards in Larry Nance and John Hot Rod Williams. We don't need that amount of offense form the position, but we need that same style of guy. Long, athletic, protects the rim. Its literally the only thing Cousins is not able to do, and so what we are looking for there should be pretty obvious.
 
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We don't have much time if we even dream of the playoffs. So either we tank now, which is fine with me, by not trading any of Jimmer/MT/JT or make some movements within this month.

According to ESPN's playoff projections, that is no longer a possibility. Odds of making the playoffs have flatlined at 0.0%. 9.2 % chance of winning the lottery. Odds were nearly 0 prior to the last two games as it was.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

We needed a 4-1 or 5-0 home stand. Losing the first 2 ended that obviously and was pretty much the final nail in the coffin.

I know it's January, but with our extremely home heavy schedule so far, the playoffs are not happening. Even if we suddenly play well, the most rosy projections still have us out of the playoffs. Right now, we project to finish with the 4th worst record in the NBA, with only Utah Milwaukee and Cleveland worse. Playoffs? Not even a dream at this point. We'd need a 10 game winning streak to even get back in the conversation.

Unless our management is as out of touch with math as some people on this board, any moves we make will not be about a playoff push but looking toward development and the future. We need a guard badly just to make it through this season without teammates fighting the rest of the year. Again, little man wears down and gets hurt, we are looking at some really bad times. And it's bad with him, but a Jimmer/Ray PG rotation is D-League quality or worse.

We need to win some games for team chemistry. As fans, we can look at the silver lining of ping pong balls at the end of the day (or not, it's up to each person) but what's happening right now is devastating to morale and all that off the court stuff that matters. We are bad, the record will be bad at the end, even if we play better. Fear not. But this is not even close to productive right now.
 
.....

I'm willing to give him every chance in the world and all the support I possibly can. Why? Because he's a human being worthy of it AND he's possibly the best big man in the game today, a game I have loved and followed for well over 40 years. I know people who have dealt with him in off-the-court situations who have nothing but praise for his heart, his generosity, and his dedication to this community. I think he's earned the right to at least be judged fairly.

I have mentioned it before, both my daughter and wife have met him when he came to their respective schools. He was a perfect gentleman and they had nothing but positive things to say about him. I live in rural Kentucky and he took the time to come to the boon-docks to encourage the youngsters. His heart and generosity goes far beyond the Sacramento Community.
 
DeMarcus Cousins is the best Center is the NBA right now. End of story. No need to even have the thought of getting rid of him even cross your mind, it's not happening.

Even if you don't like DeMarcus, it's just absolutely bonkers to think we'll trade him. The $62 million dollar check our brand spanking new FO gave DeMarcus says exactly what their feelings are about him.
 
Lets face it. The problems on Defense start with the Guards. Penetration by opposing guards on every possession is KILLING the Kings. Front Office needs to bring in a guard or 2 that can defend his position and distribute the ball. Every time the guards play OLE and the opposing team penetrates into the paint 2 bad things happen 1) they score or make an assist for a score or 2) one of the bigs gets a foul for trying to play help defense. At some point the guards have to stop penetration. You cant win when your defense is lax at the top of the key with guards penetrating into the paint.

Come on Front Office !! bring us a guard(s) that can play defense !!!
 
We passed on not one, but TWO of them last year as Geoff put the cherry on top of his career by drafting a small tweener bust instead of Andre Drummond, or John Henson, both of whom he brought in and worked out but could not see the talent in.

I've not had the 'shot blocker' agenda as many others here have over the years, but I do recall being one of the few on the John Henson bandwagon heading into the draft a few years back. I think it was only me, bajaden, and possibly you that were in favor of drafting Henson. Most thought he was too skinny or wouldn't develop. I always thought the kid would develop into a solid player. And, yes, this team sure could use him right about now.
 
I liked Henson quite a lot coming out. He wasn't number 1 on my list but he was up there. From my vague recollection, I don't think Baja was a huge fan. Could be wrong on that one as it's so long ago, sorry Baja if I am! I believe the majority thought he was too weak, I'm pretty sure I pointed towards his good balance/co-ordination as a sign that the weight wasn't as much an issue as it could have been (yes, a cheap I-told-you-so!). Would be interesting to look at that draft thread again, though there's not much point in torturing ourselves over GP's mistakes.
 
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Baja said:
Out of curiosity, I looked up Acy's defensive rating with the Raptors this year. It was 96.0. With the Kings, its 110.0. Hard to believe he suddenly got that bad isn't it?

FYI, defensive rating doesn't work that way. Defensive rating is an estimation of the number of points allowed per 100 possessions. They are highly based on the team's defensive efficiency and so comparing players between teams doesn't work. It's really only for comparing players on the same team. They are also prone to overrate big men, and so the rating for the Kings are what one would expect:

1 DeMarcus Cousins 102
2 Chuck Hayes 106
3 Hamady N'Diaye 109
4 Patrick Patterson 109
5 Luc Mbah a Moute 109
6 Travis Outlaw 109
7 Rudy Gay 109
8 Derrick Williams 109
9 Jimmer Fredette 110
10 Quincy Acy 110
11 Jason Thompson 110
12 John Salmons 111
13 Marcus Thornton 111
14 Aaron Gray 112
15 Ben McLemore 112
16 Isaiah Thomas 112
17 Ray McCallum 114
18 Greivis Vasquez 115

Getting steals and blocks greatly increases your defensive rating and so if your a player who gets neither (Greivis Vasquez) you will be rated accordingly.
 
What's the league average for defensive rating? ^

that's the thing -- you NEVER want to try to use it on some sort of leaguewide or comparing team basis. That's where the big errors crop up. You put Tony Allen on our team and his D-rating would be much higher than if you put him on Chicago. Same player, but the system/team counts for much of the background noise.
 
FYI, defensive rating doesn't work that way. Defensive rating is an estimation of the number of points allowed per 100 possessions. They are highly based on the team's defensive efficiency and so comparing players between teams doesn't work. It's really only for comparing players on the same team. They are also prone to overrate big men, and so the rating for the Kings are what one would expect:

1 DeMarcus Cousins 102
2 Chuck Hayes 106
3 Hamady N'Diaye 109
4 Patrick Patterson 109
5 Luc Mbah a Moute 109
6 Travis Outlaw 109
7 Rudy Gay 109
8 Derrick Williams 109
9 Jimmer Fredette 110
10 Quincy Acy 110
11 Jason Thompson 110
12 John Salmons 111
13 Marcus Thornton 111
14 Aaron Gray 112
15 Ben McLemore 112
16 Isaiah Thomas 112
17 Ray McCallum 114
18 Greivis Vasquez 115

Getting steals and blocks greatly increases your defensive rating and so if your a player who gets neither (Greivis Vasquez) you will be rated accordingly.
This confirms what I have watched on the court. Jimmer is the best defensive guard on the team this year. I know he isn't a great defender but he plays pretty good team defense and has been defensive rebounding pretty well this year.
 
This confirms what I have watched on the court. Jimmer is the best defensive guard on the team this year. I know he isn't a great defender but he plays pretty good team defense and has been defensive rebounding pretty well this year.
Side note to that is he probably plays against a bench player 80% of the time or more.
 
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