Grades v. Bobcats 01/30/10

[Noam77]

different basketball philosophies

hey guys, hi all, that's my first post here so good luck to kings and let's get started:

i do see the talent in tyreke, but i have to say people are hypnotised by the numbers. reke got to be that big in sac because of martin's being injured and the team being so young and helpless without him. he's a good player, but wouldn't be even close to such numbers in any of the better teams around. for god's sake look at his game.

it's been argued that he doesn't pass, or not enough. then in counter-argument someone said he has lots of assists. well, here's the truth:
tyreke had, untill KMART came back, a lots of possesing time. his 1on1 abilty made PW decide to let him be the no 1 option. the baskets he makes are because he's so talented, inspite of him being - basically - very predictable, when we talk about a half court game especially. reke should be a finisher.

people say rookies should get the chance to make mistakes and learn. true, but with tyreke it's not a matter of situational mistakes, like how to dribble, how to put your body, etc. there are some things that should be learned when you're 20, escpecially when you're coming to the NBA, not to the greek league or the likes.

REKE JUST DOESN'T KNOW WHEN TO PASS, HE CREATES ANTICIPATION IN THE OTHER TEAM IN MOST CASES, AND DEVOURS PRECIOUS SECONDS OF THE 24 CLOCK.

if he makes a fg out of this, people say good. you know, he's got 45-46 fg percent, which is better than the team fg, so why not let him shoot all the time huh???
when he misses people say he's entitled to.

what lots of sac fans don't see is that their admiration for reke comes from the desire to show all other fans that "we've got an allstar too, an exceptional rookie, a 20-5-5 rookie etc". unfortunately that's the NBA type of pride, having an allstar. like phillie has iverson, houston has mcgrady, and miami has wade.

team play will always triumph over individual play, as prooved any olympics or world championship, where the USA loses or hardly wins the tournament recently even though they have so much more individual talent then the rival.

well yeah, seems like i'm a european fan as you call it, i'm israeli, i've seen some of the best moments of team basketball in europe, where yugoslav teams of 20 year olds like kukoc and radja slaughtered NBA veterans who took on the european fun and games.

if only americans settled to see only 40-50% of the baskets coming from individual abilty and not 70%, where the other fg's come from sophisticated team play, their teams would win more games.
teams like sacramento should not be mislead by the talent just drafted. team play exposes all kinds of talents in other players, uses few gems like tyreke to make an upgrade, and given a true bigman, sac could have faught for playoff , this season.

and not a word about Omri.

 

[bajaden]

i never said i prefer sergio, i just said they can't play together!
i know what's tyrik is gonna be, and that is a super star, there is no way i would preffer sergio over him, i am just saying they can't play together, and by the way if you love basketball you have to love sergio's game.
and if you don't criticize a guy especially a young player he won't develop to be as good as he could be, because he will never know his mistakes.
beside, Beno has almost 50%, same with Casspi and Haws, and JT scores around the same fgp as tyrik (46) so why can't he pass them the ball more?

If by criticize, you mean the coaching staff, I'm sure they need little help from us. If by criticize you mean me, or yourself, I doubt Tyreke will ever read one word that any of us write. And even if he did, I think he knows his faults and what he needs to work on. To think your going to enlighten him is flatering yourself.

Tyreke is the star of this team. If Sergio is incapable of playing with him, then the result would be the same as if Sergio couldn't play with LeBron. Sergio is on a one year contract, and personally I'll be surprised if he's with the team next year. I like him, and I think he has talent. But at this point if I had to choose between him and Beno, I would choose Beno.

By the way, I don't buy your premise that Sergio can't play with Tyreke. I just don't think Tyreke would like playing with Sergio for extended minutes.

 

[M_Barragan]

hey guys, hi all, that's my first post here so good luck to kings and let's get started:

i do see the talent in tyreke, but i have to say people are hypnotised by the numbers. reke got to be that big in sac because of martin's being injured and the team being so young and helpless without him. he's a good player, but wouldn't be even close to such numbers in any of the better teams around. for god's sake look at his game.

it's been argued that he doesn't pass, or not enough. then in counter-argument someone said he has lots of assists. well, here's the truth:
tyreke had, untill KMART came back, a lots of possesing time. his 1on1 abilty made PW decide to let him be the no 1 option. the baskets he makes are because he's so talented, inspite of him being - basically - very predictable, when we talk about a half court game especially. reke should be a finisher.

people say rookies should get the chance to make mistakes and learn. true, but with tyreke it's not a matter of situational mistakes, like how to dribble, how to put your body, etc. there are some things that should be learned when you're 20, escpecially when you're coming to the NBA, not to the greek league or the likes.

REKE JUST DOESN'T KNOW WHEN TO PASS, HE CREATES ANTICIPATION IN THE OTHER TEAM IN MOST CASES, AND DEVOURS PRECIOUS SECONDS OF THE 24 CLOCK.

if he makes a fg out of this, people say good. you know, he's got 45-46 fg percent, which is better than the team fg, so why not let him shoot all the time huh???
when he misses people say he's entitled to.

what lots of sac fans don't see is that their admiration for reke comes from the desire to show all other fans that "we've got an allstar too, an exceptional rookie, a 20-5-5 rookie etc". unfortunately that's the NBA type of pride, having an allstar. like phillie has iverson, houston has mcgrady, and miami has wade.

team play will always triumph over individual play, as prooved any olympics or world championship, where the USA loses or hardly wins the tournament recently even though they have so much more individual talent then the rival.

well yeah, seems like i'm a european fan as you call it, i'm israeli, i've seen some of the best moments of team basketball in europe, where yugoslav teams of 20 year olds like kukoc and radja slaughtered NBA veterans who took on the european fun and games.

if only americans settled to see only 40-50% of the baskets coming from individual abilty and not 70%, where the other fg's come from sophisticated team play, their teams would win more games.
teams like sacramento should not be mislead by the talent just drafted. team play exposes all kinds of talents in other players, uses few gems like tyreke to make an upgrade, and given a true bigman, sac could have faught for playoff , this season.

and not a word about Omri.

If he had more talent on this team maybe he would pass it more... besides he had 7 assists by the half the last game.

Oh and he's 20 with 40 NBA games under his belt... can't forget that small detail.

 

[bajaden]

hey guys, hi all, that's my first post here so good luck to kings and let's get started:

i do see the talent in tyreke, but i have to say people are hypnotised by the numbers. reke got to be that big in sac because of martin's being injured and the team being so young and helpless without him. he's a good player, but wouldn't be even close to such numbers in any of the better teams around. for god's sake look at his game.

it's been argued that he doesn't pass, or not enough. then in counter-argument someone said he has lots of assists. well, here's the truth:
tyreke had, untill KMART came back, a lots of possesing time. his 1on1 abilty made PW decide to let him be the no 1 option. the baskets he makes are because he's so talented, inspite of him being - basically - very predictable, when we talk about a half court game especially. reke should be a finisher.

people say rookies should get the chance to make mistakes and learn. true, but with tyreke it's not a matter of situational mistakes, like how to dribble, how to put your body, etc. there are some things that should be learned when you're 20, escpecially when you're coming to the NBA, not to the greek league or the likes.

REKE JUST DOESN'T KNOW WHEN TO PASS, HE CREATES ANTICIPATION IN THE OTHER TEAM IN MOST CASES, AND DEVOURS PRECIOUS SECONDS OF THE 24 CLOCK.

if he makes a fg out of this, people say good. you know, he's got 45-46 fg percent, which is better than the team fg, so why not let him shoot all the time huh???
when he misses people say he's entitled to.

what lots of sac fans don't see is that their admiration for reke comes from the desire to show all other fans that "we've got an allstar too, an exceptional rookie, a 20-5-5 rookie etc". unfortunately that's the NBA type of pride, having an allstar. like phillie has iverson, houston has mcgrady, and miami has wade.

team play will always triumph over individual play, as prooved any olympics or world championship, where the USA loses or hardly wins the tournament recently even though they have so much more individual talent then the rival.

well yeah, seems like i'm a european fan as you call it, i'm israeli, i've seen some of the best moments of team basketball in europe, where yugoslav teams of 20 year olds like kukoc and radja slaughtered NBA veterans who took on the european fun and games.

if only americans settled to see only 40-50% of the baskets coming from individual abilty and not 70%, where the other fg's come from sophisticated team play, their teams would win more games.
teams like sacramento should not be mislead by the talent just drafted. team play exposes all kinds of talents in other players, uses few gems like tyreke to make an upgrade, and given a true bigman, sac could have faught for playoff , this season.

and not a word about Omri.

Boy, where do I begin? Since this is your first post, and the more the merrier, I'll try and be as tactful as I can. I'm not sure why, but for some reason its become fashionable to be critical of Evans. I find this unusual not because he has some holes in his game he needs to correct, but because from day one he's been the most consistent player on the team.

By and large this criticism has come from fans of foreign players that think their favorite player isn't getting enough time because of Tyreke. Or that Tyreke isn't getting their favorite player the ball enough. Therefore accusing Tyreke of being a ballhog. The rest of the criticism has come from disgruntled fans that wanted the Kings to draft Ricky Rubio, or some player that fits their definition of a true point guard. In fact if you look up the definition of what defines a point guard, Tyreke meets all those requirments. So nothing I can say will appease either side. Therefore I won't try.

As far how to play the game of basketball, it would serve you well to remember that we invented the damm game. So I think we know a little about it. European basketball fans are like a born again christians. For some reason they think their closer to god than someone thats been on board from the beginning. So tone it down a little. We both love the same game.

Lest your forget, or perhaps, your late to the party and don't know, but the old Kings team of Vlade, Webber, Peja, Bibby and Christie knew something about team play. So most of the fans on this fourm are pretty well educated on team basketball. So please, I'm asking you politely, don't lecture us on the subject.

In closing, I would suggest to you that if Tyreke was on a team that had great players he would probably average 7 to 8 assists a night. If you take the time to really watch he does pass the ball. Unfortunately too many times it results in a missed layup or a missed wide open three. All he can do is pass the ball to the shooter. He can't make the shot for them. If I have to sit here with a counter and count every pass Tyreke make a game to prove my point I will. How long it takes him to set the play up is meaningless as long as it results in a open shot with more than enough time to make the shot. I would rather use 20 seconds of the shot clock to get a good shot, than fly down the floor and throw up some wild out of control shot with 20 seconds still left on the clock. Having said all that, Wellcome aboard!

 

[mac]

Boy, where do I begin? Since this is your first post, and the more the merrier, I'll try and be as tactful as I can. I'm not sure why, but for some reason its become fashionable to be critical of Evans. I find this unusual not because he has some holes in his game he needs to correct, but because from day one he's been the most consistent player on the team.

By and large this criticism has come from fans of foreign players that think their favorite player isn't getting enough time because of Tyreke. Or that Tyreke isn't getting their favorite player the ball enough. Therefore accusing Tyreke of being a ballhog. The rest of the criticism has come from disgruntled fans that wanted the Kings to draft Ricky Rubio, or some player that fits their definition of a true point guard. In fact if you look up the definition of what defines a point guard, Tyreke meets all those requirments. So nothing I can say will appease either side. Therefore I won't try.

As far how to play the game of basketball, it would serve you well to remember that we invented the damm game. So I think we know a little about it. European basketball fans are like a born again christians. For some reason they think their closer to god than someone thats been on board from the beginning. So tone it down a little. We both love the same game.

Lest your forget, or perhaps, your late to the party and don't know, but the old Kings team of Vlade, Webber, Peja, Bibby and Christie knew something about team play. So most of the fans on this fourm are pretty well educated on team basketball. So please, I'm asking you politely, don't lecture us on the subject.

In closing, I would suggest to you that if Tyreke was on a team that had great players he would probably average 7 to 8 assists a night. If you take the time to really watch he does pass the ball. Unfortunately too many times it results in a missed layup or a missed wide open three. All he can do is pass the ball to the shooter. He can't make the shot for them. If I have to sit here with a counter and count every pass Tyreke make a game to prove my point I will. How long it takes him to set the play up is meaningless as long as it results in a open shot with more than enough time to make the shot. I would rather use 20 seconds of the shot clock to get a good shot, than fly down the floor and throw up some wild out of control shot with 20 seconds still left on the clock. Having said all that, Wellcome aboard!

You hit the nail right on the head. The problem with so many fans is the use of this sentence. "tyreke is going to be a superstar but .............." When I read this I just scratch my head and think to myself, the guy is a frikin young rookie, already you're giving him credit as a star but you want him to improve on a certain area overnight? I mean get real guys, skills take time to be developed and experience is required as well. At this point in the season I think we've pretty much seen enough of tyreke's game to know his flaws and strengths, and what he needs to work on. I'm also sure our coaching staff is every bit as competent as we are and will address these issues with him.

As for the majority of european fans who keep harping on about how american basketball sucks because it's star centred and there's no team play, well too bad for you then. I frankly don't care how we win, as long as we win. If we had MJ in his prime and we went 82-0 with him taking every single shot the entire season do you think people would care about how boring the game seems? True, the game does seem a lot more fun when the ball is being passed around and everyone is involved in the offense. Kings fans of all people know that extremely well from the glory days. Ultimately however, you build your offense and team with the goal of winning, not entertaining. Look at the Spurs, they were the most boring team offensively a few years back, and they still won a couple of rings.

Does Tyreke need to pass more? Yes, at times. Does our offensive sets need to become more fluid? Definitely. Everyone realises this, it would be nice if the new Sergio or Omri fan who joins the board every other day could stop echoing the point

 

[Asaf]

You hit the nail right on the head. The problem with so many fans is the use of this sentence. "tyreke is going to be a superstar but .............." When I read this I just scratch my head and think to myself, the guy is a frikin young rookie, already you're giving him credit as a star but you want him to improve on a certain area overnight? I mean get real guys, skills take time to be developed and experience is required as well. At this point in the season I think we've pretty much seen enough of tyreke's game to know his flaws and strengths, and what he needs to work on. I'm also sure our coaching staff is every bit as competent as we are and will address these issues with him.

As for the majority of european fans who keep harping on about how american basketball sucks because it's star centred and there's no team play, well too bad for you then. I frankly don't care how we win, as long as we win. If we had MJ in his prime and we went 82-0 with him taking every single shot the entire season do you think people would care about how boring the game seems? True, the game does seem a lot more fun when the ball is being passed around and everyone is involved in the offense. Kings fans of all people know that extremely well from the glory days. Ultimately however, you build your offense and team with the goal of winning, not entertaining. Look at the Spurs, they were the most boring team offensively a few years back, and they still won a couple of rings.

Does Tyreke need to pass more? Yes, at times. Does our offensive sets need to become more fluid? Definitely. Everyone realises this, it would be nice if the new Sergio or Omri fan who joins the board every other day could stop echoing the point

Actually yes. I would care, and I hope a lot of other people will care too, because if I wanted to see a sport in which one guy does everything I would watch tennis, not basketball. I would lose all interest in a team that would have one guy take all the shots all the time, even if it was the team that I had followed since childhood, and even if it would be cruising towards the title. It just isn't basketball.

That being said, I do not think that Tyreke is the kind of player who takes all the shots, and I'm glad he isn't. I think he will develop to be a great PG. However, just like every player, and especially rookies, he still has deficiencies in his game, and I don't understand why you guys get so angry when people point them out. No one wants to trade Tyreke or to diminish his role on the team, but they are saying that in their opinion these are the things he needs to work on. Why is that so wrong? If your child makes a mistake on his math homework would you not point it out to him just because he's still a kid? How exactly will he learn, then?

And regarding your comment about European fans, there are two sides to that coin. Yes, the NBA is an American league, and the American style of basketball is prevalent here, but when the NBA started recruiting European players it wasn't because they felt sorry for Europe for not having great basketball, and it's not because there weren't enough skilled players in the US. It's because there is a different basketball mentality in Europe and some people over here thought that maybe it wouldn't hurt to have some influence of that style over American basketball. So I really think that it would not kill you to at least try to understand the points of view that are stemmed from growing up on European basketball. As a European basketball fan, I have learned a lot about basketball from watching and learning how things work in the NBA. Don't you think you could learn a thing or two by being open to the concepts that lead European basketball?

 

[FaStRmAn]

Thats complete bull****. Tyreke did nothing but set up his teammate time after time tonight. To start knocking Tyreke, and acting like he is the problem, shows your complete bias towards Sergio. Sergio is good at what he does, in a limited role, but don't start bashing the Kings best player to make your boy Sergio look better.

Totally agree. There is a Sergio contingent here that swears that if he got more playing time the Kings would be cured of all that ails them. Sergio is the 3rd point guard for a REASON. He is a boarderline NBA player who tends to make wild passes and passes that fool even the person he is trying to pass to. Also for his size, he doesn't shoot very well. Couple that with the fact that he is a defensive liability because of his size and you get a 3rd string point guard who gets garbage minutes. This team will be run by Tyreke and Martin in the backcourt. The problem with the Kings lies in the front court and the inability of their bigs to play any defense. Lets not go into fantasy land and start blaming the problems on the only star on the team. SHEESH!!

 

[Reem]

Totally agree. There is a Sergio contingent here that swears that if he got more playing time the Kings would be cured of all that ails them. Sergio is the 3rd point guard for a REASON. He is a boarderline NBA player who tends to make wild passes and passes that fool even the person he is trying to pass to. Also for his size, he doesn't shoot very well. Couple that with the fact that he is a defensive liability because of his size and you get a 3rd string point guard who gets garbage minutes. This team will be run by Tyreke and Martin in the backcourt. The problem with the Kings lies in the front court and the inability of their bigs to play any defense. Lets not go into fantasy land and start blaming the problems on the only star on the team. SHEESH!!

this is your outlook. but from my perspective Sergio Rodriguez is the best PG in this team, the only one who makes his teammates better.
the only one who shares the ball, who makes his teammates feel good with their game, be comfortable with their shots.
maybe the only one who is unselfish in this team.

I'm not talking about Reke because he's getting better all the time..
I'm just saying that for now- sergio needs to play a lot more, maybe instead of beno, depending on beno's game.

 

[drboiffard]

what lots of sac fans don't see is that their admiration for reke comes from the desire to show all other fans that "we've got an allstar too, an exceptional rookie, a 20-5-5 rookie etc". unfortunately that's the NBA type of pride, having an allstar. like phillie has iverson, houston has mcgrady, and miami has wade.

This is the point.

As for the majority of european fans who keep harping on about how american basketball sucks because it's star centred and there's no team play, well too bad for you then. I frankly don't care how we win, as long as we win. If we had MJ in his prime and we went 82-0 with him taking every single shot the entire season do you think people would care about how boring the game seems?

You're seeing it wrong. The question it's if we had MG in his prime and we were 0-82. The fact, the point is the Kings are losing and losing. If Kings were wining because of Tyreke, there wouldn't be these debates. But they aren't wining. Tyreke is playing great and he's one of the most atonishing rookie in years. But isn't being enough to lead the team into a contending one right now. That's the point. The team is losing. The team is sucking.

Most american fans doesn't care because "at least we have Tyreke", who can lead the team into a contendent team in a few years. The european fan doesn't give a **** if you have a future all-star that will develop in next years while the team is losing, the european fan wants wins right now. The european fan wants wins always, in any case.

And, as europeans see basketball, they know right now the team could be wining more games with the actual roster if the team played more as a team. You don't see any european fan bashing or insulting JT and Hawes as many american fans do. You don't see many europeans making fantasy trades and playing Pokemon with the players' numbers because they know there is a thing called team chemistry that is at least as important than adding individual talent.

By and large this criticism has come from fans of foreign players that think their favorite player isn't getting enough time because of Tyreke. Or that Tyreke isn't getting their favorite player the ball enough. Therefore accusing Tyreke of being a ballhog. The rest of the criticism has come from disgruntled fans that wanted the Kings to draft Ricky Rubio, or some player that fits their definition of a true point guard. In fact if you look up the definition of what defines a point guard, Tyreke meets all those requirments. So nothing I can say will appease either side. Therefore I won't try.

I don't think you're being fair making generalizations like these. The criticism comes because the team is losing and losing, besides Tyreke. I'm sure they'd still be some israelis claiming more minutes to Omri of the team were wining more, but I don't see people talking just about Omri. They just apply european logic to NBA, which can be a wrong vision, but that has little to see with their player. In fact they're talking here more about Sergio than about Omri.

And I think the true-PG point is very debatable without the need of puting Rubio in the conversation or treating everyone's arguments in that direction as if we were us Aries clones. We aren't.

In closing, I would suggest to you that if Tyreke was on a team that had great players he would probably average 7 to 8 assists a night.

Yes, and if you apply the same logic, Sergio would average 7 to 8 assists in his 10 minutes. So we're at the same place.

All that said, I don't agree with the Tyrke point. I think Tyreke is being solid at PG altough not being a pass first one.

The point is Sergio can give a change of pace game that can be useful to win right now, as he has proved in so many games. If people prefer to keep trying Martin and Tyreke beside losing every game, and their only argument is these players' numbers completely isolated from the fact the team lose and lose, well, I don't take it seriously. It seems little basketball comprehension.

 

[drboiffard]

Totally agree. There is a Sergio contingent here that swears that if he got more playing time the Kings would be cured of all that ails them. Sergio is the 3rd point guard for a REASON. He is a boarderline NBA player who tends to make wild passes and passes that fool even the person he is trying to pass to. Also for his size, he doesn't shoot very well. Couple that with the fact that he is a defensive liability because of his size and you get a 3rd string point guard who gets garbage minutes. This team will be run by Tyreke and Martin in the backcourt. The problem with the Kings lies in the front court and the inability of their bigs to play any defense. Lets not go into fantasy land and start blaming the problems on the only star on the team.

Look guy. You're completely wrong. Nobody swears that if he got more playing the Kings would be cured of all bads. What we claim is he can be useful in so many games as he has proven in so many matches. If you don't see the difference you'd better check your read comprehension.

You claimed factual proof about why Sergio is more than a 3rd string PG or a borderline NBA player in the other thread and you dissapperead when I gave you them. Then you come and repeat the same ****ing phrases. You're autist or something like that? Your only argument is Tyreke being better than Sergio (who absolutely nobody doubts)? You can't understand Sergio's way of runing the team is completely different from Tyreke's, and that change of pace has been useful and is still useful to win games? You just don't get it, don't you? You haven't played basketball in your entire life and you only know to argue with numbers and stats, isn't it?

 

[drboiffard]

duplicated

 

[drogba]

If by criticize, you mean the coaching staff, I'm sure they need little help from us. If by criticize you mean me, or yourself, I doubt Tyreke will ever read one word that any of us write. And even if he did, I think he knows his faults and what he needs to work on. To think your going to enlighten him is flatering yourself.

Tyreke is the star of this team. If Sergio is incapable of playing with him, then the result would be the same as if Sergio couldn't play with LeBron. Sergio is on a one year contract, and personally I'll be surprised if he's with the team next year. I like him, and I think he has talent. But at this point if I had to choose between him and Beno, I would choose Beno.

By the way, I don't buy your premise that Sergio can't play with Tyreke. I just don't think Tyreke would like playing with Sergio for extended minutes.

first i don't know if he reads it, or the coach or the people that wisper to Maloof, but the minute you'll change the name of this team to Tyrik+4 or to T-kings, then i will agree with you.
you are probably talking about tennis or golf, but this game my friend is being played by 5 people.
you are looking at his numbers, but you don't see the whole picture.
first i wanna remind you that with out Kevin and Tayrik we almost beat L.A. and Kobe was lucky to give them the W.
so don't get me wrong, this kid will be great and will carry this team, but in the procces he should'nt try and win games alone, because the other young guy has a lot of potencial.
when the rest of the team played together and Beno,Haws,Casspi and JT all scored in double figures, we won, now when they don't we only won twice this month, and guess what, in the games we won the other players i mentioned gave a Significant Contribution.

 

[rainmaker]

This is the point.



You're seeing it wrong. The question it's if we had MG in his prime and we were 0-82. The fact, the point is the Kings are losing and losing. If Kings were wining because of Tyreke, there wouldn't be these debates. But they aren't wining. Tyreke is playing great and he's one of the most atonishing rookie in years. But isn't being enough to lead the team into a contending one right now. That's the point. The team is losing. The team is sucking.

Most american fans doesn't care because "at least we have Tyreke", who can lead the team into a contendent team in a few years. The european fan doesn't give a **** if you have a future all-star that will develop in next years while the team is losing, the european fan wants wins right now. The european fan wants wins always, in any case.

And, as europeans see basketball, they know right now the team could be wining more games with the actual roster if the team played more as a team. You don't see any european fan bashing or insulting JT and Hawes as many american fans do. You don't see many europeans making fantasy trades and playing Pokemon with the players' numbers because they know there is a thing called team chemistry that is at least as important than adding individual talent.
.

This is one of the problems with fans like yourself who jump on a teams bandwagon, and hope for immediate success. You fail to understand rebuilding, and find it acceptable, if not the norm, to pick apart the game of a 20 yr old rookie because he has failed to turn a 17 win team into a contender. Your expectations are completely unrealistic given the reality of where this team is. We were the worst team in the league last year. For you to "expect wins now", along with the other euro fans, while looking at the pieces on our roster, really shows you don't have a clue about how the nba works.

This team is where they are because of how young they are, the 3rd youngest team in the league. Beforre Kevin returned, we had the youngest starting lineup in the league. This is completely normal to go through for young teams. Start fast, come back down to earth. For you to expect anything else is beyond rediculous. For you to imply that JT and Hawes are more condusive to winning in the nba than having Tyreke on your roster, really says it all. You are a typical bandwagon fan, who comes in and wants instant gratification, while ignoring reality and not taking the time to look at facts.

Take a minute and look at the history of the league. Look at how long it took Jordan,Kobe, Wade, and Lebron to become title contenders. All those players had failures as young players, as did their teams. As they matured, so did the players and pieces around them, and they built themselves into playoff teams, and then contenders. Two of them playing with Shaq helps to. It comes accross as extremely arrogant, almost disrepectful, the way you imply american fans don't know what it takes to win basketball games. Most of us were fans when the playoffs were a pipedream for the Kings. Then we watched an exciting rebuild take place which eventually ended in getting to game7 of the WCF. Then everything started going downhill, until things started to turn around with this draft. We've been through the ups and down of this franchise. There is no way you want the Kings to win more than some of the diehards on this forum. But eventhough we want the Kings to win, we are able to put the rebuild in prospective, which you apparently haven't been able to do at this point.

It really is shocking to me, how much you say you want the KIngs to win, while failing to realize having aplayer like Tyreke gives us the best chance to win, now, and down the road. If you knew what it took to win in the playoffs, you would be a little more excited about a player like Tyreke. How do we feel about what Kobe has done to us at the end of games. Ask dallas fans how they feel about what Wade did to them in the finals. Look at how Lebron has taken over games against both Det and Bos in the playoffs, and won series against those teams. Players that can close out playoff games, and playoff series, don't come around often, and we might be lucky enough to have drafted one. It is beyond me how you fail to realize that and are more concerned with Sergio getting his 5+ assists per game.

 

[drboiffard]

You should check your read comprehension, man.

When I did wanted the Kings to win it all? I'm talking about wining something more. I truly think some of the games we've lost could have been won with a different coaching and aproach. It's not really necessary to make a paternalist rant about rebuilding and NBA, because I do know what a reconstruction is about, and I don't spect the Kings to reach the playoffs, I'm only expect the Kings to not suck as they are doing lately.

I'm talking about using better the players in the roster when needed to try to win games, not hoping that Tyreke or Martin have their night so the team can win.

You don't see any european fan bashing or insulting JT and Hawes as many american fans do.

For you to imply that JT and Hawes are more condusive to winning in the nba than having Tyreke on your roster, really says it all.

That's the biggest read comprehension FAIL I've seen in years, man. Maybe my english isn't perfect, but that's obviously not the problem. When did I say JT and Hawes are more condusive to wining than Tyreke? I said many (many is not the same than all) fans from here keep insulting and calling names to JT and Hawes. And that disrespectfulness it's what I don't get and don't stand from american fandom. If you understand from there that I believe JT and Hawes are more important than Reke, you're not very smart.

You may read more carefully if you want to have a serious conversation, specially if you're taking your time to reply. I never said anything bad against Tyreke, in fact I said I didn't agree with the israelis that he should pass more. I have read again what I said and the only bad thing that I could have written against Tyreke is that the team is losing beside him being almost a superstar, wich is not an opinion but an obvious fact.

 

[drboiffard]

BTW The Cavs wasn't title contenders in Lebron's rookie year, but they were above .500, the same with Wade and the Heat. The Kobe and the Fakers case is not comparable at all as Kobe came off the bench in a solid team instead being a rookie sensation as Tyreke. So the only comparision left from those you've made is with Michael Jordan. In wich I won't enter.

 

[rainmaker]

You should check your read comprehension, man.

When I did wanted the Kings to win it all?




That's the biggest read comprehension FAIL I've seen in years, man. Maybe my english isn't perfect, but that's obviously not the problem. When did I say JT and Hawes are more condusive to wining than Tyreke? I said many (many is not the same than all) fans from here keep insulting and calling names to JT and Hawes. And that disrespectfulness it's what I don't get and don't stand from american fandom. If you understand from there that I believe JT and Hawes are more important than Reke, you're not very smart.

You may read more carefully if you want to have a serious conversation, specially if you're taking your time to reply. I never said anything bad against Tyreke, in fact I said I didn't agree with the israelis that he should pass more. I have read again what I said and the only bad thing that I could have written against Tyreke is that the team is losing beside him being almost a superstar, wich is not an opinion but an obvious fact.

Tyreke is playing great and he's one of the most atonishing rookie in years. But isn't being enough to lead the team into a contending one right now. That's the point. The team is losing. The team is sucking.

Most american fans doesn't care because "at least we have Tyreke", who can lead the team into a contendent team in a few years. The european fan doesn't give a **** if you have a future all-star that will develop in next years while the team is losing, the european fan wants wins right now.

And, as europeans see basketball, they know right now the team could be wining more games with the actual roster if the team played more as a team. You don't see any european fan bashing or insulting JT and Hawes as many american fans do.

If Kings were wining because of Tyreke, there wouldn't be these debates.

Reading comprehension? Dude, these are your quote's, not mine. Each one of them ignores the whole idea of rebuilding, and the concept that Tyreke, as a rookie, needs time to develop and mature.You only seem to care about the win/loss column, and can't grasp the concept of rebuilding. This team is exactly where it should be with the talent it has and the extremely young roster.

You want wins, you want them now. Tyreke isn't getting enough of them for you. You said yourself "you don't give a **** if the Kings have a future allstar, you want wins now".

Well, if you were really a Kings fan, and had been for the past 10-15 years, you would be singing different tune. Tyreke is our best chance at any kind of consistent winning or title contention down the road. Tyreke is the best thing to happen to this franchise since we traded for Webber. You don't see that because you're a bandwagon fan. Everyone of your quotes imply Tyreke is part of teh problem, and not the solution. You think you know some secret to winning in the nba that our front office and coaching staff isn't aware of. Rebuilding takes time. If you don't understand that, go jump on the bandwagon of a veteran team.

 

[pshn80]

The Kings have seven players now that I believe are of a quality to be in the everyday rotation (top 9 players) of at least five other NBA teams. They are: Martin, Evans (these are the only two of starter quality), Udrih, Nocioni, Garcia, Thompson, Casspi. The rest who, at best,, are of a quality to hold the bottom six spots on a 15 man roster are: Hawes, Thomas, Udoka, May, Rodriguez, Brockman, Greene, Armstrong.

You can argue about whether I have Hawes and Thomas right but that's about it. We don't have a superstar, league require that we play five players at all times, we have only two starter quality players on the team. What are the coaches to do? I believe we and they would agree that the goal is to build a winning team. Tough job with this talent. Doesn't make much difference if you are an NBA coach or a European team coach.

I don't give a hoot whether or not we have a superstar or even a star as long as we develop a team that can be really competitive in the majority of games. Sort of fun to watch the process in the meantime.

 

[drboiffard]

Yes dude, reading comprehension. If I say european fans don't insult not-stars players as JT and Hawes as americans do, and you understand that I'm saying that they are more important than Tyreke, you need to check your read comprehension. It's not debatable, it's a fact. Period.

Did you change "europeans" for "you" in the quote, didn't you? Well, if you read more carefully you'd have understand that I was talking about the different points of view of european basketball fans, not giving my opinion. I repeat: I said I didn't agree with the israelies about Tyreke and his passing. Do I have to put it bolded and with size 7? I don't doubt Tyreke is the best thing to happen to this team. What I won't do is lie myself thinking that in the future everything will be full of roses when the team can't win the games they're supposed to win this season. Yes rebuilding is long, but between thinking that every game should be won and thinking that the team will be contending for the title in next years so nothing matters this season, there's a lot of middle points of view. If you don't think this roster isn't talented enough to have won some of the matches they've lost lately because it's in reconstruction maybe you're not seeing the same games than I.

In fact, even a lot of the games the Kings have won wasn't because of Tyrke. JT, Beno, Omri even Sergio against the Hornets were responsible of making the difference between a loss and a win. The fact that Tyreke is talented enough to buld the franchise around him doesn't make him the only one in the team who has contributed to win the few games the team has won. That is what you have to understand. They are two isolated facts.


Tyreke is a great player, it's the best of the team and will be a perennial all-star. But there is a world of circunstances around all-star type players, and no one has won nothing by himself. MJ had Pippen, Rodman, Steve Kerr. Kobe had Shaq and has Gasol now, between them he did nothing. And Iverson, LeBron or Wade hasn't win anything yet, and I bet the first one won't do it never. This is a team sport besides all the marketing around stars. And that's what we were talking about, not about reconstruction. Team basketball. What you do taking part of my post, cuting it, interpreting it as you want and making a rant about reconstruction in response is called an ad hominem falacy, and it's a wrong way of discussing.

And yes, I'm a bandwagon fan. Of course. I don't hide it. I'm here since last summer. So what? If you pretend you have more reason for being a fan since a long ago, you're using again an authority falacy.

Take a look at them before trying to discuss. It's useful.

 

[drboiffard]

Everyone of your quotes imply Tyreke is part of teh problem,

You're wrong.

My last logic lesson today:

A implies B

is not equivalent to

NOT A implies NOT B.

Learn it, it's useful.

 

[bajaden]

first i don't know if he reads it, or the coach or the people that wisper to Maloof, but the minute you'll change the name of this team to Tyrik+4 or to T-kings, then i will agree with you.
you are probably talking about tennis or golf, but this game my friend is being played by 5 people.
you are looking at his numbers, but you don't see the whole picture.
first i wanna remind you that with out Kevin and Tayrik we almost beat L.A. and Kobe was lucky to give them the W.
so don't get me wrong, this kid will be great and will carry this team, but in the procces he should'nt try and win games alone, because the other young guy has a lot of potencial.
when the rest of the team played together and Beno,Haws,Casspi and JT all scored in double figures, we won, now when they don't we only won twice this month, and guess what, in the games we won the other players i mentioned gave a Significant Contribution.

First off, your all over the board. Secondly, I think I know how many people play basketball on the court at one time. I followed this team when they were the Kansas City Kings, the Cincinnitti Royals and as far back as when they were in Syracuse. I remember when they drafted Oscar Robertson. So can we just keep the discussion to basketball without trying to enlighten me. I see Tyreke differently than you do. I have my idea of how to develop a player and build a solid team thats different than yours. It doesn't make me right, nor does it make you right.

If you want to make the point that Tyreke should start initiating the offense sooner. Fine! I can see your point. I agree that sometimes it takes him too long to get things going. Personally I think that its a lack of experience and it will correct itself in time as he gains that experience. But please don't tell me he doesn't pass the ball. I see countless passes to open players that miss shots. I counted seven in the first half of the last game. And he still had seven assists at halftime, thanks mainly to Martin, who was actually able to make some shots.

Evans is a very smart player. He knows he can't do it alone. But you know, at some point when you make 5 or 6 trips down the floor and no one can make a damm basket, your more than likely going to take matters into your own hands. He made a pass to Thompson under the basket and he missed. He drove the lane and dished to a wide open Casspi under the basket, who looked surprised by the pass and it went through his hands. He made a pass to a wide open Udoka in the right corner. He missed. he made a pass to the wide open Udoka in the left corner. He missed. He made a nice pass out of a double to a wide open Nocioni on the left wing. He missed. This happens game after game. He's doing his job, but his teammates aren't doing theirs. Tyreke isn't responsible for Beno going 0 for 5. Or Nocioni going 1 for 6.

Tyreke and Martin average right at 16 shots a game.

Thompson. 11 shots a game
Beno. 10 shots a game
Casspi. 9.5 shots a game
Hawes. 9 shots a game
Nocioni. 8.5 shots a game
Greene. 7 shots a game
Udoka. 4 shots a game

It doesn't appear to me that Tyreke is taking all the shots or dominating the ball. He and Martin take the most per game shots, but thats as it should be since they're the two best scorers. And for a big time scorer, 16 shots a game is not a huge amount. And if you look at the rest of the team, the shots are fairly well distributed. So is Tyreke perfect? No! But he's pretty damm good for a young kid and he's going to get better. And as he gets better, the team will get better with him.

 

[bajaden]

You're wrong.

My last logic lesson today:



Learn it, it's useful.

Can you stop with the condesention. There's no need for that on this fourm. We all are perfectly capable of comprehending what your talking about. Some of us just don't happen to agree with what your saying.

Now I would like to make a point here. And If it makes me an ugly american then so be it. I live in the United States of America. I happen to believe its the greatest country in the world. But then I was born and raised here. I've been all over the world from south pacific to Japan to skiing in europe. And I still wouldn't trade this country for any other. As a matter of fact when I was skiing in europe, the people on the slopes were some of the rudest people I ever ran into on a ski slope. I'm also sure that you love your country and think its the greatest. And thats as it should be.

So having said all that, I don't give a tinkers damm how european fans treat their teams. This is america, and this is how we discuss our players and our teams. And no, I don't always agree with the rest of the posters. But then, thats why its a disscussion fourm. If you don't like the way we discuss things then go elsewhere. You do have a choice. But please stop with the comprehension thing. We understand you just fine. And believe me, if I wanted to play your little game I could. I just don't believe in that kind of crap.

I know, that you know, that NBA basketball and european basketball are two different games with different rules. As to which is better doesn't matter. What matters is which is the most popular to the fan base their appealing to. NBA basketball is star driven. Whether you like that or not, thats the way it is, and for the most part its extremely popular. Americans like heros and underdogs. Thats our heritage. Thats where we came from. I don't know what europeans like, nor do I care. So whatever floats your boat.

You admit to being a Johnny come lately, or a recent bandwagon fan. I don't know what attracted you to the team. But I would suspect that its a european player thats on the roster. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. But my point is that my loyalty is to the team. Not one player. The players will come and go. And sometimes its painful to watch them go. But its the team that comes first. I'm sure that opinion is shared by most on this fourm.

Without saying whether I agree with him or not, I think Rainmaker as done a good job of making his points. And his points for the most part had nothing to do with european baskeball. You brought up those. Your response was peppered with comments on his lack of comprehension, and at one point your said he must be stupid. The implication being he's too stupid to understand you. Thats uncalled for. I love having the european fans on the fourm. It gives it a different prespective, or flavor if you will. But please be civil.

 

[Rockmeister]

Can you stop with the condesention. There's no need for that on this fourm. We all are perfectly capable of comprehending what your talking about. Some of us just don't happen to agree with what your saying.

Now I would like to make a point here. And If it makes me an ugly american then so be it. I live in the United States of America. I happen to believe its the greatest country in the world. But then I was born and raised here. I've been all over the world from south pacific to Japan to skiing in europe. And I still wouldn't trade this country for any other. As a matter of fact when I was skiing in europe, the people on the slopes were some of the rudest people I ever ran into on a ski slope. I'm also sure that you love your country and think its the greatest. And thats as it should be.

So having said all that, I don't give a tinkers damm how european fans treat their teams. This is america, and this is how we discuss our players and our teams. And no, I don't always agree with the rest of the posters. But then, thats why its a disscussion fourm. If you don't like the way we discuss things then go elsewhere. You do have a choice. But please stop with the comprehension thing. We understand you just fine. And believe me, if I wanted to play your little game I could. I just don't believe in that kind of crap.

I know, that you know, that NBA basketball and european basketball are two different games with different rules. As to which is better doesn't matter. What matters is which is the most popular to the fan base their appealing to. NBA basketball is star driven. Whether you like that or not, thats the way it is, and for the most part its extremely popular. Americans like heros and underdogs. Thats our heritage. Thats where we came from. I don't know what europeans like, nor do I care. So whatever floats your boat.

You admit to being a Johnny come lately, or a recent bandwagon fan. I don't know what attracted you to the team. But I would suspect that its a european player thats on the roster. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. But my point is that my loyalty is to the team. Not one player. The players will come and go. And sometimes its painful to watch them go. But its the team that comes first. I'm sure that opinion is shared by most on this fourm.

Without saying whether I agree with him or not, I think Rainmaker as done a good job of making his points. And his points for the most part had nothing to do with european baskeball. You brought up those. Your response was peppered with comments on his lack of comprehension, and at one point your said he must be stupid. The implication being he's too stupid to understand you. Thats uncalled for. I love having the european fans on the fourm. It gives it a different prespective, or flavor if you will. But please be civil.

Co-signed.

 

[rainmaker]

You're wrong.

My last logic lesson today:



Learn it, it's useful.

This **** needs to stop. I don't mind having a debate with you, but you keep going back and forth between arguing basketball, and making it personal. We all disagree, and enjoy debating as fans, but most of us can do it in a civilized manner.

When you get fustrated, you make it personal. Your personal attacks make you appear to be about 15 years old. Obviously I can read. Obviously, I fully comprehend what you have said. Obviously, I have been a long time Kings fan and have watched a lot of nba basketball. So please, cut this **** out and quit acting like you're enlightening me on a topic I have zero understanding of.

 

[drboiffard]

I just get very annoyed when I said something about people calling names on JT and Hawes and rainmaker took it as if I was saying that they were more important than Tyreke. I know my english isn't perfect but I don't think that conclusion can be made about what I said. I don't know if he did intentionally but these kind of manipulation makes me angry. Anyway I overreacted, so I'm sorry. Don't wanna be trolling.

And about being a bandwagon. Look, I don't wanna appear what I aren't. I didn't follow the kings since 2002 and I started posting here when Sergio got traded, I admit it. But I felt in love with the team in their winining streak, when Sergio was out of the rotation. I'm still atonished with Tyreke and Omri, and specially with Brockman's way of playing and hustling. As you can understand, I don't live there and I'm only will support my local team forever. I understand it may be annoying seeing european fans come and go, specially when they're only come to claim more minutes for their country guys, but for us it's also annoying getting treated as a whole, when we aren't. Or being treated as AriesMars when we make a critic about Tyreke or the PG spot. I think there's a lot of points that are very debatable about that without puting us in a kind of "still whining about not having drafted Rubio" group.

 

[bajaden]

I just get very annoyed when I said something about people calling names on JT and Hawes and rainmaker took it as if I was saying that they were more important than Tyreke. I know my english isn't perfect but I don't think that conclusion can be made about what I said. I don't know if he did intentionally but these kind of manipulation makes me angry. Anyway I overreacted, so I'm sorry. Don't wanna be trolling.

And about being a bandwagon. Look, I don't wanna appear what I aren't. I didn't follow the kings since 2002 and I started posting here when Sergio got traded, I admit it. But I felt in love with the team in their winining streak, when Sergio was out of the rotation. I'm still atonished with Tyreke and Omri, and specially with Brockman's way of playing and hustling. As you can understand, I don't live there and I'm only will support my local team forever. I understand it may be annoying seeing european fans come and go, specially when they're only come to claim more minutes for their country guys, but for us it's also annoying getting treated as a whole, when we aren't. Or being treated as AriesMars when we make a critic about Tyreke or the PG spot. I think there's a lot of points that are very debatable about that without puting us in a kind of "still whining about not having drafted Rubio" group.

Personally, I was addressing only you. I can't speak for everyone else of course. For what its worth, I've been one of the biggest critics of people calling the players names and making fun of them. So in that sense, I'm in agreement with you. If you had been addressing one of those people I might have even jumped in and supported you. But your wern't. You were addressing Rainmaker, who to the best of my knowledge, doesn't take part in that kind of stuff.

There is a difference between being critical of a player and calling him names. And its also possible to prefer one player having more time on the court than another, without degrading the other player. Such as, my prefering Tyreke at point guard instead of Sergio doesn't mean I don't like Sergio or that I'm degrading him. Anyway, your more than welcome. Just make nice..

 

[Asaf]

Personally, I was addressing only you. I can't speak for everyone else of course. For what its worth, I've been one of the biggest critics of people calling the players names and making fun of them. So in that sense, I'm in agreement with you. If you had been addressing one of those people I might have even jumped in and supported you. But your wern't. You were addressing Rainmaker, who to the best of my knowledge, doesn't take part in that kind of stuff.

There is a difference between being critical of a player and calling him names. And its also possible to prefer one player having more time on the court than another, without degrading the other player. Such as, my prefering Tyreke at point guard instead of Sergio doesn't mean I don't like Sergio or that I'm degrading him. Anyway, your more than welcome. Just make nice..

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but as a European/Israeli fan I am certainly feeling the same things he is feeling. Perhaps as Europeans we might have a slightly more critical view of Tyreke's game than the typical American fan, but that doesn't make us Tyreke haters, nor does that mean that any of us think that Sergio is a better player than Tyreke. However, the vibe I get here quite often, and it is partially the reason why I don't post here as much as I have in previous weeks, is that whenever anyone who is not American (and it's pretty easy to tell who is and who isn't) expresses the tiniest bit of criticism about Tyreke's game, they are immediately blasted as Tyreke haters and are accused of wanting to see Tyreke traded so that "their player" will get more minutes/shots.

Now, while I personally have never been accused of those things, mainly because I personally like Tyreke and I think he is developing as an excellent PG, I think those Europeans (with the exception of some who just pop in here and make 2-3 posts and disappear, and appear to not know much about basketball in general, whether it's European or American) do have valid points of view. You are definitely welcome to disagree with them, but try to understand how frustrating it is when people jump to conclusions and accusing us of foreign agendas whenever we express an opinion that does not sit well with them.

 

[bajaden]

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but as a European/Israeli fan I am certainly feeling the same things he is feeling. Perhaps as Europeans we might have a slightly more critical view of Tyreke's game than the typical American fan, but that doesn't make us Tyreke haters, nor does that mean that any of us think that Sergio is a better player than Tyreke. However, the vibe I get here quite often, and it is partially the reason why I don't post here as much as I have in previous weeks, is that whenever anyone who is not American (and it's pretty easy to tell who is and who isn't) expresses the tiniest bit of criticism about Tyreke's game, they are immediately blasted as Tyreke haters and are accused of wanting to see Tyreke traded so that "their player" will get more minutes/shots.

Now, while I personally have never been accused of those things, mainly because I personally like Tyreke and I think he is developing as an excellent PG, I think those Europeans (with the exception of some who just pop in here and make 2-3 posts and disappear, and appear to not know much about basketball in general, whether it's European or American) do have valid points of view. You are definitely welcome to disagree with them, but try to understand how frustrating it is when people jump to conclusions and accusing us of foreign agendas whenever we express an opinion that does not sit well with them.

For be it for me to say that there aren't extreme points of view on both sides at time. Everything from this player sucks to the same player is the greatest thing since swiss cheese. And I don't have a problem with that. As long as it remains civil. If someone is arguing a point and nothing I can say will presuade them from it, I just move on.

But let me say this. If I were to find a similar fourm on a european board. I would consider myself a guest there. And I would act accordingly. I wouldn't barge in telling them they were wrong and that in american basketball we don't do things differently. I happen to know that the european mentality is a lot different than ours from my traveling. And I'm not saying one way is right and the other is wrong. But they are different.

Unfortunately there is tendacy to lump people into one group. A sort of racism in a way. Anyway, I hope we can all find common ground, and realize that were simply not going to agree on everything. And thats OK!

 

[Dreadnought]

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but as a European/Israeli fan I am certainly feeling the same things he is feeling. Perhaps as Europeans we might have a slightly more critical view of Tyreke's game than the typical American fan, but that doesn't make us Tyreke haters, nor does that mean that any of us think that Sergio is a better player than Tyreke. However, the vibe I get here quite often, and it is partially the reason why I don't post here as much as I have in previous weeks, is that whenever anyone who is not American (and it's pretty easy to tell who is and who isn't) expresses the tiniest bit of criticism about Tyreke's game, they are immediately blasted as Tyreke haters and are accused of wanting to see Tyreke traded so that "their player" will get more minutes/shots.

Now, while I personally have never been accused of those things, mainly because I personally like Tyreke and I think he is developing as an excellent PG, I think those Europeans (with the exception of some who just pop in here and make 2-3 posts and disappear, and appear to not know much about basketball in general, whether it's European or American) do have valid points of view. You are definitely welcome to disagree with them, but try to understand how frustrating it is when people jump to conclusions and accusing us of foreign agendas whenever we express an opinion that does not sit well with them.

I just wanted to state that in the very same way, Omri is being regarded as a god. There needs to be some kind of consistency shouldn't there? A lot of people who get defensive about Tyreke, are just as excited about him as many people who are excited about Omri. It is easy to want to obligate your allegiance to your favorite player. Although I am impartial, and I think they all collectively suck at this point with the kind of crappy play I've been seeing.