Grades v. Bobcats 01/18/10

[LWP777]

I said earlier in the year that I thought Cisco was a better partner for Tyreke. He can handle the ball if necessary. Doesn't need the ball to be effective. He's a better defender than Martin, and a better passer. And he's a good spot up shooter, who last year was showing signs of becoming a decent pullup shooter. He would be a good complimentary player to Tyreke until someone better comes along.

Until such time as Cisco becomes available, I still like Tyreke, Greene, and Casspi as our perimiter players. They all like one another, and they play well together. And don't discount that last part. They all have a good feel for one another and have been trusting one another on defense. There's a lot more going on than just sticking a 25 point per game scorer into the lineup and saying how can it hurt?

I would bet you that Orlando would trade Vince Carter straight across for Hedo right now. They probably won't admit it, but they were a better team with Hedo. Both good players. One just fits better.

I agree that Cisco would be a better backcourt mate with Reke because of the intangibles that you listed. I just hope that the Kings organization sees this as well and makes a move before the deadline. Your Vince Carter analogy is spot on. Sometimes it just doesn't work for whatever reason. KMart might be a great fit on another team, but with this current group of guys I don't think he is. I really wish he did fit in because he's such a class act and a nice guy.

 

[casspion]

I said earlier in the year that I thought Cisco was a better partner for Tyreke. He can handle the ball if necessary. Doesn't need the ball to be effective. He's a better defender than Martin, and a better passer. And he's a good spot up shooter, who last year was showing signs of becoming a decent pullup shooter. He would be a good complimentary player to Tyreke until someone better comes along.

Until such time as Cisco becomes available, I still like Tyreke, Greene, and Casspi as our perimiter players. They all like one another, and they play well together. And don't discount that last part. They all have a good feel for one another and have been trusting one another on defense. There's a lot more going on than just sticking a 25 point per game scorer into the lineup and saying how can it hurt?

I would bet you that Orlando would trade Vince Carter straight across for Hedo right now. They probably won't admit it, but they were a better team with Hedo. Both good players. One just fits better.

Hedo has been struggling lately, but I still don't think Vince and his sorry *** will be welcomed back in the T.O.

 

[AriesMar27]

tyreke having a monster game.. I think Martin needs to come off the bench... two scoring guards cant co-exist that much. maybe in short stints they can come together... or a three guard combo of udrih, martin, evans. take note short stints.

martin would be an excellent source of bench points imo

3 games back still isnt enough time to tell how it will work with evans and martin. but lets be real, they cant... sucks for martin, martin fans and kings fans as a whole because he's a good player. the fact that the rest of the team isnt responding to martin doesnt help. they looked like they didnt want to follow martin on the court. they are used to tyreke doing what he does, thats all they've known for the past couple of months. now they are back to where they were when the season started, not knowing whothe go-to guy is.

 

[Merdiesel]

How so? During our run he never came back on the floor.

...?

We wouldn't need a run if we make our shots early on.

 

[allrightythen]

3 games back still isnt enough time to tell how it will work with evans and martin. but lets be real, they cant... sucks for martin, martin fans and kings fans as a whole because he's a good player. the fact that the rest of the team isnt responding to martin doesnt help. they looked like they didnt want to follow martin on the court. they are used to tyreke doing what he does, thats all they've known for the past couple of months. now they are back to where they were when the season started, not knowing whothe go-to guy is.

I don't know if I agree completely but I think you make some great points. I think too much of the blame for the offensive problems have been blamed on Kevin since the problem have kinda been team-wide. I think the other guys should shoulder some of that blame if you want to call it that. Regardless of who is to blame though it hasn't been very smooth since Kevin came back. I'm not ready to throw in the towell quite yet though.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't know if I agree completely but I think you make some great points. I think too much of the blame for the offensive problems have been blamed on Kevin since the problem have kinda been team-wide. I think the other guys should shoulder some of that blame if you want to call it that. Regardless of who is to blame though it hasn't been very smooth since Kevin came back. I'm not ready to throw in the towell quite yet though.

Kevin is the a catalyst. Or anti-catalyst if you will. Kevin is not personally running around making everybody miss, nor is he missing every shot himself. But the whole team's energy and cohesiveness is just gone when he is out there. Nobody is comfortable, nobody is inspired, and somebody above mentioend that Kevin's personality, or lack thereof, seems to dominate rather than the young frisky kids inspiring him. Its like a blackhole. Reminiscient perhaps of the effect Shaq had when added to the Suns.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Too much chucking, nearly half-way through the fourth we were 4-22 (18.1%) on three pointers. Then Noc finally hits a couple and the game starts to get competitive. Live by the 3, die by the 3.

Beno was garbage in the beginning and pretty good at the end.

Spence needs to use Brockman as a role model.

 

[Oprostaj]

Reminiscient perhaps of the effect Shaq had when added to the Suns.

You know, I thought of that too... but Shaq was the TOTAL opposite of how the Suns played. I think the only worse fit on that team would have been Eddy Curry... Martin is not supposed to drag us down like this. I mean, he's a quick guard, a good shooter, great slasher and good at getting to the rim. You'd think that pairing him with a guard that commands a double team when he drives, Martin would be either wide open, or 1 v 1 vs a inferior defender. Is it because Martin NEEDS the ball in his hands to have a feel for the game? I'm just reminded of how Rip played off of Chauncy. He still averaged 19ppg and did it in the flow of the game.

Also, about the whole "personality" thing... that shouldn't happen. There are 13 other guys on that team that the team could feed off of. If that is trully the problem, we need to trade Martin now. Not because of lack of offensive cohesion, but because if the team is not there mentaly, we will NOT be competitive no matter what.

 

[allrightythen]

Kevin is the a catalyst. Or anti-catalyst if you will. Kevin is not personally running around making everybody miss, nor is he missing every shot himself. But the whole team's energy and cohesiveness is just gone when he is out there. Nobody is comfortable, nobody is inspired, and somebody above mentioend that Kevin's personality, or lack thereof, seems to dominate rather than the young frisky kids inspiring him. Its like a blackhole. Reminiscient perhaps of the effect Shaq had when added to the Suns.

Can't disagree with you at all, it just seems so strange to me. Kevin doesn't seem like he has a dominant personality at all. I can understand Kevin's arrival disrupting the offensive rhythm and all and it makes sense to blame things like that on him. I fins it difficult to understand if there are guys who have issues with motivation or inspiration because of Kevin's return as you mentioned.

 

[mac]

Martin just hasn't displayed the same level of intensity that we're accustomed to seeing from the rest of the team. His defense has improved slightly, and as usual he was gambling on steals. There were several that he almost got only to lose them out of bounds and stuff.

While I understand that he's just coming back from injury and that his frame in general cannot withstand as hard a beating, do you think Brockman would have simply run after the ball and let it go out of bounds? Brock would have leaped into the stands just to save the ball, even if it ended back up in the other team's possession.

Tyreke and Kmart need to develop better chemistry on court on the offensive end. I am pleased however with Tyreke's improvement in setting up guys, especially on the break. I think we all agree that we've seen much better executed fast breaks with alleyoops to JT Spence and Omri and all. There are times when Tyreke seems to be very selfish on the break but that really is his nature - he's not a natural point guard. His entire career has been the Tyreke Evans show, and to a certain extent it still is at this point. If he thinks he can make it and he's catching fire he isn't going to pass the ball, especially late in the game. Earlier in games however you can see that he's making more effort to set up guys who are running with him. I think all he needs is time to develop confidence in his team mates, and this applies to Omri as well who also has a slight selfish tendency.

Relax guys, this is all gonna work out

 

[drboiffard]

I don't see clearly if Martin and Evans will fit, but I still think it's too soon. I agree that Martin is not responsable of the rest of the team failing.

What I see it's he's not completely in form. I don't agree what other guy said in the game thread that if he had scored every shot he took the game would have been different, but I do think it's true that he isn't at 100% and his impact is being more negative than it should, even if we consider that he really doesn't fit with Evans.

 

[mac]

I don't see clearly if Martin and Evans will fit, but I still think it's too soon. I agree that Martin is not responsable of the rest of the team failing.

What I see it's he's not completely in form. I don't agree what other guy said in the game thread that if he had scored every shot he took the game would have been different, but I do think it's true that he isn't at 100% and his impact is being more negative than it should, even if we consider that he really doesn't fit with Evans.

What do you think of playing Kevin in a role similar to ginobili in SA? He provides a major scoring presence off the bench allowing us to play the likes of Udoka and Brockman without worrying too much offensively. He would still get crunch time minutes if he plays decent D. Reke should be paired with a guy who can just get himself open when Reke drives and knock down open shots - like what old Finley/Roger Mason does. I really think that would be the ideal line up for us. thoughts?

 

[AriesMar27]

What do you think of playing Kevin in a role similar to ginobili in SA? He provides a major scoring presence off the bench allowing us to play the likes of Udoka and Brockman without worrying too much offensively. He would still get crunch time minutes if he plays decent D. Reke should be paired with a guy who can just get himself open when Reke drives and knock down open shots - like what old Finley/Roger Mason does. I really think that would be the ideal line up for us. thoughts?

that wont work... its not that he cant play its that he cant play with evans... manu can play with parker and duncan, they just dont have any balance to their scoring so he comes off the bench. winning rings makes swallowing your pride a little easier. if martin comes off the bench he could only do it when evans comes out of the game. they cant play together because they play the same position. any guard that needs the ball will suck with evans, chris paul would be ineffective playing with evans because he is a pg who needs the ball. but evans needs the ball just as much if not more....

 

[drboiffard]

Ginobili is a very decent defender, Martin isn't, but yes, more or less. As I said in other thread, I seriously think he could be very effective paired with Sergio, coming off the bench with a kind of run'n'gun second unit. I know Sergio is a worse player than both Tyreke and Beno, but I truly think it's the PG in the roster who better fits with Martin's play. Sergio did magic with Portland with Rudy, whose play is quite similar to Martin. It seems he doesn't work with Tyreke, last year didn't work very well with Beno, but I think he could fit very well with Sergio in a all-offense low-deffense runing scheme for the 2nd quarter, that it's also very useful to get the other team exhausted before the half, and then back again in the 3rd quarter with the Tyreke/Beno or Tyreke/Greene back-court lineup and slow again. Then he can come back in the 4th if we go with all-deffensive guys as Udoka around him, if his outside shoot is needed.

All that as a temporary solution for right now. In a long term, if things doesn't change, I think the best thing to do is trade him for a solid center, as everybody else think. Right now it's quite an obvious movement.

 

[AriesMar27]

Ginobili is a very decent defender, Martin isn't, but yes, more or less. As I said in other thread, I seriously think he could be very effective paired with Sergio, coming off the bench with a kind of run'n'gun second unit. I know Sergio is a worse player than both Tyreke and Beno, but I truly think it's the PG in the roster who better fits with Martin's play. Sergio did magic with Portland with Rudy, whose play is quite similar to Martin. It seems he doesn't work with Tyreke, last year didn't work very well with Beno, but I think he could fit very well with Sergio in a all-offense low-deffense runing scheme for the 2nd quarter, that it's also very useful to get the other team exhausted before the half, and then back again in the 3rd quarter with the Tyreke/Beno or Tyreke/Greene back-court lineup and slow again. Then he can come back in the 4th if we go with all-deffensive guys as Udoka around him, if his outside shoot is needed.

All that as a temporary solution for right now. In a long term, if things doesn't change, I think the best thing to do is trade him for a solid center, as everybody else think. Right now it's quite an obvious movement.

we all know that it would work, but it wont work out that way in real life. like i said, martin cant come off of the bench unless evans is coming out of the game. they just dont work well together... if you could combine players, evans and martin would make the perfect sg. thats why they dont work well together... sergio is a bad fit for this team as long as evans is here, evans cant play off the ball.... sergio would probably love to just set up players all day, but thats not gonna happen with evans. he wouldve been a great fit for this team last season....

 

[6th]

I could not watch the game, but not because I hate on my team. I was on a long drive back to Sac from Las Vegas.

I'm sorry to see the Kings lose......always am, but as a long time King fan (since they came to Sacramento in '85), I've learned to appreciate the good things, really enjoy the areas of improvement, especially when they are struggling, and not spend so much time criticizing my own team. That last one takes all the fun out of being a fan.

 

[Oprostaj]

That last one takes all the fun out of being a fan.

I don't understand this - there are people that go overboard, yes; but this is part of being a fan. Just because I root for the team does not mean that I will turn a blind eye if players are not performing or team is just playing awful. Basketball is entertainment, and we have a right, since we pay their salaries, to voice our opinion. I agree, things have gotten out of hand, but some of the most fun and interesting discussions are about players and team development, whether it be progressing or regressing. It's just life...

 

[6th]

I don't understand this - there are people that go overboard, yes; but this is part of being a fan. Just because I root for the team does not mean that I will turn a blind eye if players are not performing or team is just playing awful. Basketball is entertainment, and we have a right, since we pay their salaries, to voice our opinion. I agree, things have gotten out of hand, but some of the most fun and interesting discussions are about players and team development, whether it be progressing or regressing. It's just life...

I agree with what you are saying. I'm really referring to what I have bolded here. It is really out of hand to me when criticism is all someone has to offer without ever seeming to appreciate the good things that are happening to our young team. Thanks for your comments.

 

[VF21]

I agree with what you are saying. I'm really referring to what I have bolded here. It is really out of hand to me when criticism is all someone has to offer without ever seeming to appreciate the good things that are happening to our young team. Thanks for your comments.

You and me both, dear 6th, and a number of other fans. It seems like some are way too quick to criticize for no real reason other than because the player on the court hasn't lived up to their expectations...not even half-way through the season, a season when our rookies are exceeding all reasonable expectations, Martin has only been back for three games and the team is on the road.

I don't understand this - there are people that go overboard, yes; but this is part of being a fan. Just because I root for the team does not mean that I will turn a blind eye if players are not performing or team is just playing awful. Basketball is entertainment, and we have a right, since we pay their salaries, to voice our opinion. I agree, things have gotten out of hand, but some of the most fun and interesting discussions are about players and team development, whether it be progressing or regressing. It's just life...

No, it's part of YOU being a fan. There's no single definition of fan or single way a fan should act. You saying you won't "turn a blind eye if players aren't performing" is your interpretation of how fans should act. Just because some of us don't come here and rant, call players names, etc. doesn't mean we're not fans and it doesn't mean we aren't critical of what mistakes may or may not be made.

We can have - and have had over the years - very interesting discussions about players and team development without the vitriolic commentary that seems to pervade more and more posts around here.

So please - do not judge all fans by your own barometer. Thanks.

 

[Oprostaj]

No, it's part of YOU being a fan. There's no single definition of fan or single way a fan should act. You saying you won't "turn a blind eye if players aren't performing" is your interpretation of how fans should act. Just because some of us don't come here and rant, call players names, etc. doesn't mean we're not fans and it doesn't mean we aren't critical of what mistakes may or may not be made.

We can have - and have had over the years - very interesting discussions about players and team development without the vitriolic commentary that seems to pervade more and more posts around here.

So please - do not judge all fans by your own barometer. Thanks.

I'm a little tired of being singled out by you. Not sure if I've done something to antagonize you but at this point maybe it's better I don't post? My post was a misinterpreted response to 6ths original post. Instead of saying that SHE was wrong in the way she believes, I stated my own. Nowhere in my post did I force my opinion on everybody or said this is how fans should act. I simply attempted to say that being a fan is more than cheering for your team whenever and wherever - if the team is not performing I believe fans should let their opinions be heard. If you read my post you will see I don't agree with all the crap that's been going on. I didn't say for fans to stop supporting the team or boycott games, or light damn torches on fire and storm ARCO. For you to even assume that I judge people is absurd, and I find it personally offensive. 6th was nice enough to clarify her comments, and I understood I was wrong with lumping people together. I should have made that clear. Simply put - I did NOT say how fans should act. I tried to say that criticism is part of being a fan.

 

[VF21]

I'm a little tired of being singled out by you. Not sure if I've done something to antagonize you but at this point maybe it's better I don't post? My post was a misinterpreted response to 6ths original post. Instead of saying that SHE was wrong in the way she believes, I stated my own. Nowhere in my post did I force my opinion on everybody or said this is how fans should act. I simply attempted to say that being a fan is more than cheering for your team whenever and wherever - if the team is not performing I believe fans should let their opinions be heard. If you read my post you will see I don't agree with all the crap that's been going on. I didn't say for fans to stop supporting the team or boycott games, or light damn torches on fire and storm ARCO. For you to even assume that I judge people is absurd, and I find it personally offensive. 6th was nice enough to clarify her comments, and I understood I was wrong with lumping people together. I should have made that clear. Simply put - I did NOT say how fans should act. I tried to say that criticism is part of being a fan.

If I misinterpreted your comments, I apologize.

 

[Kingster]

The one thing that bothered me more than anything with the game was when Reynolds said that the Kings guards need to go out and pressure the ball when they are in the zone. Otherwise, the opposing guard can have a free and easy pass to a cutter under the basket. That was dejavu all over again. We heard that plenty last year. And when did we hear it? When Martin was on the floor. Been there. Done that. Don't want to see that ever ever again. And then the assistant was asked by Grant about the same thing and his response was, well, it's a zone. Heard the same thing last year. A man can take only so much...