[Grades] Grades v. Blazers 11/11/2016

[lawlman91]

There are no moral victories with this team. As its been stated many teams, this is the group we're going to fight with. We're not the Lakers or Twolves with a bunch of young talent where you can gain a lot from a hard-fought game like this. It's a loss to a team that's fighting for the same space we are for the playoffs.

I agree with the "no moral victories" chant, but I just really don't want people to panic with all the trade trade trade, so and so is trash stuff. Like calm down. If we trade and knee-jerk, we might end up winning LESS games.

For example, I really suspect that we would lose more games if we traded Rudy Gay and Darren Collison for Goran Dragic. No knee-jerks, please

 

[ESP47]

As Kings fans, we just aren't allowed to have any nice things.

 

[bajaden]

I've been sitting back and trying to figure out exactly what Joerger is doing. And the only thing I can come up with is that he's evaluating talent, and lineups. Personally, I don't like the starting lineup, but then I'm sure everyone out there has their own ideas as well. I don't think Koufos is the guy I would be starting next to Cousins. Yes, both players are doing what they do well. And sometimes the final product is better than the sum of the parts; But in this case, I think it's the opposite. I'd rather see Koufos as Cousins backup and a player that could help the second unit rebound. Start whomever you want at the PF position.

I think we can all agree that Lawson has been terrible. He can't hit a shot for the life of him. No player misses shots on purpose. I get that! But he's at the point where he doesn't even want to take a shot. Add in that he seldom gets to the basket and scores, and he ends up being a big zero offensively. I will give him credit for his defensive effort, but as you saw last night, taller PG's like Lillard just shoot over him. He is capable up putting up assists, but of late, teams are refusing to guard him, making it easier to double down on either Cousins or Gay. Point is, he's not helping the team win, and as you saw last night, Collison took up most of the PG minutes. I like Collison, but I don't think I want him playing 40 minutes a night. OK, I exaggerate a bit..

So far, I'm happy with Cousins, Gay, and Afflalo in the starting unit. Aaron struggles a bit at times defensively, but when the team defense is working properly, any weakness in his defensive ability goes unnoticed. So who would I put on the floor with those three? Well at PF, you could give Willie a shot next to Cousins and see if that helps his game and confidence. You could give our newly signed freeagent Tolliver a shot. He's supposed to be a stretch four, right? Or, and I'm not in favor of this one, you could move Gay to the PF position and give Casspi some minutes at SF, although he has appeared lost so far this season.

I don't have any answers at PG. I would have cut Lawson and kept Farmar who is a career backup PG. At least he can shoot the ball a little. Call me old school, but I do like the traditional approach to the game. You know, players at the positions they fit. I just can't wrap my head around a guy 6'4" playing SF. Or or a 6'7" 200 pound guy playing PF, but that's the way the game seems to be going. The league is moving away from traditional bigs, to a guard oriented league. The headlines are made up of "Curry hits 13 threes in a game", instead of Cousins pulls down 18 rebounds and scores 30 points. Just an example I made up folks. don't start going back to see when he did that.

So far as I can see, the Kings right now, and for some time, have no identity. What kind of team are they? I realize that's what Joerger is trying to figure out, but isn't that what Karl did as well, with his constantly changing lineups? I wonder, is my patience finally running out? I'll give him credit, he has stuck with his starting lineup, even if I'm not a big fan of that lineup. I wonder how long he, or Vlade is going to go with Lawson, who in my humble opinion, doesn't come close to looking like a starting PG in the NBA.

 

[bajaden]

Well maybe you could make a cafe, thats easier for a point guard to lead a team than for a big, who is easier to cover down low and who relies on entry passes quite a lot. Todays 3point chucking game also leads to less dominant play on the boards, taking away another classic big man strength.
Over the last few years there were mostly outside inside teams with dominant guards or wings in the playoffs. Is this because a guy like Lillard is the better player than a guy like Cousins? I don't think so although It's close between those two as people here like to admit.

I think trying to compare them as players, is apples and oranges. But I do think that comparing them as how they have an effect on their teams is fair game. Is Lillard a better leader than Cousins? Does he do a better job of making everyone around him better? I have my opinion which I'll keep to myself for the present, but I think those are fair questions. I watched a replay of Cousins confrontation with Randle toward the end of the Laker game, and what struck me was how silly Cousins looked with Randle laughing at him. What also struck me about the Laker game (which I finally got to watch and it made me sick) was how the Lakers all seemed to like one another and enjoyed playing together. Does that give them an edge the Kings don't have?

I honestly don't know, and maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but there seems to be something missing on the Kings. We have two players in Cousins and Gay that are putting up very good if not impressive numbers, and were still losing. We can go back and pick apart every game and make excuses about the ref's or the way the ball bounced, but at the end of the day, were losing. We haven't dug ou-r grave yet, but Joerger needs to reverse this fairly soon, or we will have. This is the year we were going to share the ball, but I'm not seeing it. I still see way too much isolation. Maybe that's because we have no choice if we want to score. But where are the easy baskets? What happened to the backdoor cuts? We are getting good looks on the perimeter, but unfortunately, we don't have a Lillard or a McCullom taking those shots. Maybe that's the problem!

 

[Larry89]

The Kofous/Cousins lineup started off shaky but now it looks very good. Kofous has turned into an excellent pick and roll defender. WCS can learn a thing or two from him

 

[Bricklayer]

I honestly don't know, and maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but there seems to be something missing on the Kings. We have two players in Cousins and Gay that are putting up very good if not impressive numbers, and were still losing. We can go back and pick apart every game and make excuses about the ref's or the way the ball bounced, but at the end of the day, were losing. We haven't dug ou-r grave yet, but Joerger needs to reverse this fairly soon, or we will have. This is the year we were going to share the ball, but I'm not seeing it. I still see way too much isolation. Maybe that's because we have no choice if we want to score. But where are the easy baskets? What happened to the backdoor cuts? We are getting good looks on the perimeter, but unfortunately, we don't have a Lillard or a McCullom taking those shots. Maybe that's the problem!

Cousins .582TS% 27.8PER
RGay .588TS% 23.3PER
-------------
-------------
Afflalo .532TS% 9.3PER
Lawson .393TS% 9.3PER
Barnes .489TS% 9.2PER
Koufos .516TS% 11.3PER
Temple .559TS% 12.8PER
BMac .521TS% 10.1PER
WCS .582TS% 10.6PER
Casspi .448TS% 6.8PER
Collison .463TS% 12.5PER
Tolliver .503TS% 7.7PER


So of our 12 man roster, all of whom have now been in the rotation at some point, you have Cousins and Gay putting in huge seasons, and then every single other guy on the team running below average to poor PERs. Only 2 of them having any TS% luck either, and that's two guys who don't shoot/score and average 5.4pt (Temple) and 4.7pts (WCS) a piece.

 

[VF21]

Not what I want to see but I think if the trade deadline approaches and the Kings haven't started figuring out how to win, this is the season to trade Cousins and rebuild.

Come on, funkman. It's November. Can't we wait until at least the first of the year to start the "it's time to trade Cousins and rebuild" stuff? Please?

 

[kingsboi]

I agree with the "no moral victories" chant, but I just really don't want people to panic with all the trade trade trade, so and so is trash stuff. Like calm down. If we trade and knee-jerk, we might end up winning LESS games.

For example, I really suspect that we would lose more games if we traded Rudy Gay and Darren Collison for Goran Dragic. No knee-jerks, please

I think more than anything, the fans want to see a team with a future. Whether the Kings have that remains to be seen so I won't go into too much detail in regards to that, but in this current state, this is just spinning the wheel. I see Rudy continue to boost his trade value and come trade deadline, Vlade really needs to hit the phones and try to nab a young player or a quality draft pick for Rudy, which will be tough considering his circumstance. It's nice to hear that this is a season where Joerger and company want to establish a "identity" that's fine and all but that's just another year you waste with Cousins on the team and another year closer to the inevitable happening.

 

[kingsboi]

The Kofous/Cousins lineup started off shaky but now it looks very good. Kofous has turned into an excellent pick and roll defender. WCS can learn a thing or two from him

Watching Willie try to play defense is getting more frustrating by the game, he is a deer in head lights out there...doesn't know where he is supposed to be and is always seen arguing with a teammate after the score about where he was supposed to be.

 

[kingsboi]

Not what I want to see but I think if the trade deadline approaches and the Kings haven't started figuring out how to win, this is the season to trade Cousins and rebuild.

I still think it's too early to make that kind of statement but I definitely see where you are coming from. You, me & almost everyone else on here are sick of being just good enough or even mediocre. We want a proper future with players that play hard, play together & defend collectively. The coach is here for the forseeable future, hopefully...that's one issue out of the way. That said, the hardest thing to do, especially for a small market, is a cornerstone player. The Kings might be without one for the next decade if they don't get their act together post Boogie era, which is closer than we think.

 

[funkykingston]

Come on, funkman. It's November. Can't we wait until at least the first of the year to start the "it's time to trade Cousins and rebuild" stuff? Please?

Yes and no. I don't want to have a knee jerk reaction to a slow start but to me it's pretty obvious that Vlade & co were hedging their bets. Very little salary committed beyond this season and what there is (Boogie, Koufos, Trill etc) is easy to move.

They surrounded DMC with solid, role playing vets but also put themselves in a position to move on if things don't work out.

 

[pshn80]

I think more than anything, the fans want to see a team with a future. Whether the Kings have that remains to be seen so I won't go into too much detail in regards to that, but in this current state, this is just spinning the wheel. I see Rudy continue to boost his trade value and come trade deadline, Vlade really needs to hit the phones and try to nab a young player or a quality draft pick for Rudy, which will be tough considering his circumstance. It's nice to hear that this is a season where Joerger and company want to establish a "identity" that's fine and all but that's just another year you waste with Cousins on the team and another year closer to the inevitable happening.

What would you suggest as an alternative?

 

[kingsboi]

What would you suggest as an alternative?

Not really much to do at the moment unless you want to trade Boogie at the trade deadline but that wouldn't give Boogie and Joerger a whole season to work together to see if they can accomplish anything together or if it's best to part ways. That said, I would look to trade Rudy at the trade deadline and get something in return for him because it is highly unlikely he returns IMO. If the Kings are at a point where they are too many games under .500, then it's time to play the rookies more and let them get some significant playing time to see what you have to work with moving forward.

 

[Tetsujin]

In the game threads and here, I've read these gems brought up again....IT, Malone, Karl. When does Tyreke, Hassan and, why not, Salmons and MT also get thrown into the mix?

I personally am still offended that we cut Louie Amundson for Justin Williams.

 

[Tetsujin]

How many wins did you project for the season?

40-43 wins. Which we are still relatively on pace for (The Kings schedule loosens up after the next couple of weeks)

 

[dude12]

I personally am still offended that we cut Louie Amundson for Justin Williams.

We never should have gotten rid of Jason Thompson.

 

[Joshoua]

40-43 wins. Which we are still relatively on pace for (The Kings schedule loosens up after the next couple of weeks)

Same here and I still feel we get 40 wins good enough for DMC to do the same extension that Westbrook did.

 

[Gliesian]

We never should have gotten rid of Jason Thompson.

I've always felt this way too. He was solid defensively and had an OK jumper with good post moves. Low IQ tho.
We need a PF in general. Someone who can help everyone without getting in Cuz' way.

 

[Bricklayer]

We never should have gotten rid of Jason Thompson.

Do not fear, help is on the way from the Sacto Kings All-Stars:

I think I have divined our decade-long problem -- we just play in the wrong league.

 

[Tetsujin]

Do not fear, help is on the way from the acto Kings All-Stars:

I think I have divined our decade-long problem -- we just play in the wrong league.

You forgot to circle Sacramento Kings Summer League roster studs Donald Sloan and MarShon Brooks there too.


On an unrelated noted, it's also a little sad seeing former Kings killers like Andre Blatche and DeJuan Blair struggling to eke out an existence in China league action.

Also, Stephon Marbury still being alive was a pleasant surprise.

 

[biltalent]

Again, a rough start was to be expected. As Brick pointed out, there is this huge gap between our two main guys and the other guys. Thats what happens when your Point Guard and third best player misses 8 games and you replace him with the ghost of Ty Lawson and Garret Temple running PG. I will be interested to see what happens after we are now at full strength and can get a few practices in.

 

[Gliesian]

Do not fear, help is on the way from the acto Kings All-Stars:

I think I have divined our decade-long problem -- we just play in the wrong league.

Yes my boy JT! Look at that efficiency!

 

[KingMilz]

Do not fear, help is on the way from the Sacto Kings All-Stars:

I think I have divined our decade-long problem -- we just play in the wrong league.

One guy on that list we could have actually used is Norris Cole

 

[KingsFanGER]

I think trying to compare them as players, is apples and oranges. But I do think that comparing them as how they have an effect on their teams is fair game. Is Lillard a better leader than Cousins? Does he do a better job of making everyone around him better? I have my opinion which I'll keep to myself for the present, but I think those are fair questions. I watched a replay of Cousins confrontation with Randle toward the end of the Laker game, and what struck me was how silly Cousins looked with Randle laughing at him. What also struck me about the Laker game (which I finally got to watch and it made me sick) was how the Lakers all seemed to like one another and enjoyed playing together. Does that give them an edge the Kings don't have?

I honestly don't know, and maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but there seems to be something missing on the Kings. We have two players in Cousins and Gay that are putting up very good if not impressive numbers, and were still losing. We can go back and pick apart every game and make excuses about the ref's or the way the ball bounced, but at the end of the day, were losing. We haven't dug ou-r grave yet, but Joerger needs to reverse this fairly soon, or we will have. This is the year we were going to share the ball, but I'm not seeing it. I still see way too much isolation. Maybe that's because we have no choice if we want to score. But where are the easy baskets? What happened to the backdoor cuts? We are getting good looks on the perimeter, but unfortunately, we don't have a Lillard or a McCullom taking those shots. Maybe that's the problem!

This is indeed the problem from my point of view. I talked all offseason about our guard and wing positions. Outside of Memphis every team in last years Playoffs was controlled by guards or wings. Well maybe you could also mention the Spurs as a big team, but they still have Kawhi. This year the teams with dominant offensive bigs are once again not living up to the hype so far. AD is 1-9, KAT 3-6 and DMC 4-7, while Embiid/Okafor are still on a minutes restrictions and 1-8.
So after all not having an upper echolon guard line or some solid wings, that can shoot does hurt quite a lot.
That's because it's pretty simple to get good looks from 3 and the 3 is a very efficient shot for a guy, that is good at basketball. That's why even bigs like AD, KAT, DMC or Embiid are shooting 3's nowadays.
Teams like Portland or the Lakers are simply better, when it comes to running the floor and shooting 3's at volume. Who would have thought, if you draft bigs and hire a bunch of 30+ veterans.
Being forced to control the pace at all times was the achilles heel of Joergers Grizzlies. Now it's our own achilles heel.

 

[biltalent]

This is indeed the problem from my point of view. I talked all offseason about our guard and wing positions. Outside of Memphis every team in last years Playoffs was controlled by guards or wings. Well maybe you could also mention the Spurs as a big team, but they still have Kawhi. This year the teams with dominant offensive bigs are once again not living up to the hype so far. AD is 1-9, KAT 3-6 and DMC 4-7, while Embiid/Okafor are still on a minutes restrictions and 1-8.
So after all not having an upper echolon guard line or some solid wings, that can shoot does hurt quite a lot.
That's because it's pretty simple to get good looks from 3 and the 3 is a very efficient shot for a guy, that is good at basketball. That's why even bigs like AD, KAT, DMC or Embiid are shooting 3's nowadays.
Teams like Portland or the Lakers are simply better, when it comes to running the floor and shooting 3's at volume. Who would have thought, if you draft bigs and hire a bunch of 30+ veterans.
Being forced to control the pace at all times was the achilles heel of Joergers Grizzlies. Now it's our own achilles heel.

I agree with you but I want to add that an alternative exlanation is that there are very few very good bigs and typically they go high in the draft. Boogie, AD, Embiid and Towns all were top #5 picks. So in some sorts they are destined to get to a bad team. But I would agree that Sac, Nop and the 76ers so far have failed to build around those guys. I would love to see one team successfully combine a very good post player (Boogie, Embiid) with elite three point shooting. I suppose this is the next step in NBA team building.

 

[KingMilz]

I agree with you but I want to add that an alternative exlanation is that there are very few very good bigs and typically they go high in the draft. Boogie, AD, Embiid and Towns all were top #5 picks. So in some sorts they are destined to get to a bad team. But I would agree that Sac, Nop and the 76ers so far have failed to build around those guys. I would love to see one team successfully combine a very good post player (Boogie, Embiid) with elite three point shooting. I suppose this is the next step in NBA team building.

Only team that's sort of done it well around a young big so far is Detroit around Drummond (he's not really anywhere near those guys you said in terms of talent and in some ways is easier to build around cause of it), but there ceiling is not really that high cause he is not a go to guy and the players around him are not other All-stars but solid team none the less.

The Nuggets with the 9-6 GOAT have already abandoned the Nurkic/Jokic frontline opting to bring in Jokic off the bench with Faried starting now.

 

[KingsFanGER]

I agree with you but I want to add that an alternative exlanation is that there are very few very good bigs and typically they go high in the draft. Boogie, AD, Embiid and Towns all were top #5 picks. So in some sorts they are destined to get to a bad team. But I would agree that Sac, Nop and the 76ers so far have failed to build around those guys. I would love to see one team successfully combine a very good post player (Boogie, Embiid) with elite three point shooting. I suppose this is the next step in NBA team building.

YOu may be right about the next step in NBA team building. I'm certainly not able to look into the future.
I caught a glimpse of the first half of the Lakers vs Timberwolves game today during my morning workout and besides the Wiggins heroics, it reminded me of a problem we might have against such teams. The Lakers made KAT basically a perimeter, pick&pop big during the first half. They clogged the middle and the moment he was getting inside they were getting really physical with the ref's letting them play and quickly doubled.
I asked myself what good does it really bring to have someone like Towns on the floor paired with guys like Aldridge or Dieng, if all the opposing D gives you is a 6'11 jumpshooter? You could easily make a case for Towns as the leagues most talented big. But he was being used as some luxury version of Spencer Hawes out there, because the Lakers made everything inside extremely tough.
They did that with a small, quick lineup basically flying all over the floor.
So when it's possible to make one of the best young bigs in the league a perimeter player by using a smallish, athletic lineup against him - what does this mean for the future of the league?
Granted things would be easier for Towns, if he had elite shooters to surround him. But we have to take into account, that every team only has a limited amount of salary. So to get elite players for every roster spot is a really tough task.
A team, which strengths are his big guys, won't be able to be elite on the perimeter and vice versa.
I really love watching bigs, but in terms of teambuilding I'm not entirely convinced anymore, if you should choose a big as your building block or better opt for a scoring guard.

 

[dude12]

I've always felt this way too. He was solid defensively and had an OK jumper with good post moves. Low IQ tho.
We need a PF in general. Someone who can help everyone without getting in Cuz' way.

I was being sarcastic........or was I?

 

[biltalent]

YOu may be right about the next step in NBA team building. I'm certainly not able to look into the future.
I caught a glimpse of the first half of the Lakers vs Timberwolves game today during my morning workout and besides the Wiggins heroics, it reminded me of a problem we might have against such teams. The Lakers made KAT basically a perimeter, pick&pop big during the first half. They clogged the middle and the moment he was getting inside they were getting really physical with the ref's letting them play and quickly doubled.
I asked myself what good does it really bring to have someone like Towns on the floor paired with guys like Aldridge or Dieng, if all the opposing D gives you is a 6'11 jumpshooter? You could easily make a case for Towns as the leagues most talented big. But he was being used as some luxury version of Spencer Hawes out there, because the Lakers made everything inside extremely tough.
They did that with a small, quick lineup basically flying all over the floor.
So when it's possible to make one of the best young bigs in the league a perimeter player by using a smallish, athletic lineup against him - what does this mean for the future of the league?
Granted things would be easier for Towns, if he had elite shooters to surround him. But we have to take into account, that every team only has a limited amount of salary. So to get elite players for every roster spot is a really tough task.
A team, which strengths are his big guys, won't be able to be elite on the perimeter and vice versa.
I really love watching bigs, but in terms of teambuilding I'm not entirely convinced anymore, if you should choose a big as your building block or better opt for a scoring guard.

Yep, you are certainly right. With the rules today, the evolution of defense and the high skill level of players it is much easier to get a good shot for Lillard or Russel than it is for Cousins or KAT. Just set a good screen and Russel will get an pull up jumper every time. We saw this in full effect against LA and Portland. When the game is on the line they just get better shots than we do.
But if you think about it in an evolutionary way, I wonder how long it will take for defense to figure that out. OKC seemed to have some good ideas against the Warriors already.
On a related note, I think it is interesting that teams do not double guards the same way they do with bigs (namely as soon as they touch the ball). So in theory, shouldnt it be more likely that a teammate of the big is open, what in turn would lead to better shots? Maybe this means that to beat modern defenses from the post your big needs to be a good passer and the whole team needs to be on the same page, which is certainly not easy to do. So right now, I guess it really is just easier to set a screen and let your guard shot of the dribble whenever you need an easy bucket.

 

[Kingster]

Interesting discussions about bigs. I do find it fascinating that in order to be a very good offensive big in today's game you must be a good three point shooter. (Twenty years ago the thought would have been absurd). Who in today's game is a good offensive big who does not shoot 3 pointers? And then you take the next step, which is if you are a big shooting 3 pointers what does that do to your overall effectiveness of a big compared to bigs of years gone by?

Another factor I'd never really thought of up until now are the intentionally fouling rules. If you can defend the perimeter at the expense of the interior in order to cut down on 3 pointers, in years past you could just HAMMER the little guards going in for layups, making those little guys much less likely to go to the basket. It seems that the intentional fouling rules have eliminated that from the game. By the way, I'm not advocating for the old way because I like to see quickness in the game, just making an observation how another rules change help the little guys.