GP- Still the King!

#31
Bricklayer said:
Nope. We had no choice with Wallace. Nobody else was under contract. And there WAS a bit of a minor blunder by Petrie -- because of the structure of Peeler's contract we could not expose him either. Woold have thought we would have considered that before signing him given that we knew the expansion draft was coming up.
Bricklayer said:
If you look at the roster, you tell me who would have been a better choice than Wallace. Keep in mind that Jabari had completed a one-year contract and wasn't on the roster any longer and Vlade, Massenberg and Peeler were free agents, making them ineligible. Had we put any of the free agents up we also would have had to expose a NON-free agent.

That left:

Bibby
Christie
Jackson
Webber
Miller
Songaila
Peja
Right, I thought that they could still have worked something out if they really wanted to keep Wallace. I mean I am not very sure of the rules of trades, but couldn't we have had some signed and put him on the expansion draft. I know it is a bit too far fetched but would have liked to see him on the team instead of Bluthanal or someone. I think with a little more playing time he should have done better. But again GP knows the best.


When I was talking abt Turkoglu, i just meant to say that he was a pretty decent player for a 16th pick in the draft. I would consider him to be a good draft pick and a good management decision.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#32
bibbyweb said:
Right, I thought that they could still have worked something out if they really wanted to keep Wallace...
That's the whole point. They COULD have worked something out if they really WANTED to keep Wallace...

;)
 
#34
VF21 said:
If you look at the roster, you tell me who would have been a better choice than Wallace. Keep in mind that Jabari had completed a one-year contract and wasn't on the roster any longer and Vlade, Massenberg and Peeler were free agents, making them ineligible. Had we put any of the free agents up we also would have had to expose a NON-free agent.

That left:

Bibby
Christie
Jackson
Webber
Miller
Songaila
Peja
Webber would have been a better choice than wallace. Not because I advocate giving up Webber, but because if we left Webber out, the Bobcats would not have picked him up. The combination of his overblown contract, busted knee, huge ego and being on the downside of his career would practically guarantee that the Bobcats would not have picked him up. Same reason they didn't take Allan Houston. And a further reason why they wouldn't have taken Webber... Remember how Webber bitched and whined when he was traded to Sacramento? How would he feel if he was picked up by an expansion team that would not contend for anything at least until Webber retires?
 
#35
VF21 said:
...there was absolutely no reason to believe he would all of a sudden start to shine...
I think the fact that he played well every time he got good minutes is a reason to believe he had a chance. But exposing him was the right decision.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#36
Vlad said:
Webber would have been a better choice than wallace. Not because I advocate giving up Webber, but because if we left Webber out, the Bobcats would not have picked him up. The combination of his overblown contract, busted knee, huge ego and being on the downside of his career would practically guarantee that the Bobcats would not have picked him up. Same reason they didn't take Allan Houston. And a further reason why they wouldn't have taken Webber... Remember how Webber bitched and whined when he was traded to Sacramento? How would he feel if he was picked up by an expansion team that would not contend for anything at least until Webber retires?
Whatever.

You don't expose a player of Webber's caliber, not if you ever want to sign a contract with an elite player again. There was absolutely nothing good that could come from such a bonehead move. So what if Webber bitched and whined when he came to Sacramento? When he was traded here, the franchise STUNK!! Once he got here, he has given his all - if you hate him, fine. But you might think twice about putting a 20/10/5 player into the expansion draft.
 
#37
Vlad said:
Webber would have been a better choice than wallace. Not because I advocate giving up Webber, but because if we left Webber out, the Bobcats would not have picked him up. The combination of his overblown contract, busted knee, huge ego and being on the downside of his career would practically guarantee that the Bobcats would not have picked him up. Same reason they didn't take Allan Houston. And a further reason why they wouldn't have taken Webber... Remember how Webber bitched and whined when he was traded to Sacramento? How would he feel if he was picked up by an expansion team that would not contend for anything at least until Webber retires?
No way.........
Too much risk.
 
G

Garliguy

Guest
#38
You don't expose a player of Webber's caliber, not if you ever want to sign a contract with an elite player again.
So if Webber were exposed in the expansion draft, big name free agents would never want to come to Sacramento for fear of being exposed in future expansion drafts?


The reasons the Kings did not expose Webber:

1. Charlotte would not have taken injured property with an astronomical contract.

2. As a result of being exposed, fragile (both mentally and physically) Chris Webber would have been "wounded" beyond repair. You think he has cast himself as the victim now? Can you imagine what he would have been like had he been exposed in the expansion draft? We'd have to have Stuart Smalley assigned to Webber 24-7.

"I'm good enough, smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
 
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#39
VF21 said:
Whatever.

You don't expose a player of Webber's caliber, not if you ever want to sign a contract with an elite player again. There was absolutely nothing good that could come from such a bonehead move. So what if Webber bitched and whined when he came to Sacramento? When he was traded here, the franchise STUNK!! Once he got here, he has given his all - if you hate him, fine. But you might think twice about putting a 20/10/5 player into the expansion draft.
Don't put words in my mouth - I never said I hated Webber. As a matter of fact, I believe Webber's success is imperative if the Kings to be true contenders. But, because of Webber's faults that I listed in my last post, the Bobcats would never have taken him. Not at $18 million a year. Webber is a 20/10/5 guy, but a 20/10/5 guy who is coming off athroscopic knee surgery and will turn 32 next season. His game is not going to improve any time soon.

And don't tell me that exposing players of Webber's caliber will hurt the Kings ability to sign elite players. That is not true in professional sports. The Red Sox placed Manny Ramirez on irrevocable waivers and then in the offseason, signed Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke. Did any team pick him up along with his $20 million/yr contract? Of course not. And Manny is in better health than Webber, and will probably be productive for a longer time than Webber (as baseball players seem to outlast NBA big men).

Had they placed Webber in the expansion draft instead of Wallace, both players would still be Kings, and the Kings core of the future (part of which was Wallace and Songaila) would still be intact. I just hope this "bonehead" move doesn't backfire 5 years down the road, when Webber is mulling retirement, the Kings still have no championships, and Wallace is leading the Bobcats to the playoffs.
 
#40
Vlad said:
Had they placed Webber in the expansion draft instead of Wallace, both players would still be Kings, and the Kings core of the future (part of which was Wallace and Songaila) would still be intact. I just hope this "bonehead" move doesn't backfire 5 years down the road, when Webber is mulling retirement, the Kings still have no championships, and Wallace is leading the Bobcats to the playoffs.
Why is it a "bonehead move" because he didn't put Webber?

Wallace's Bobcats have a better chance because of their division and the better chance Shaq may be mulling his retirement as well, the Southeast division um....well......sucks in it's own right.
Vlad said:
That is not true in professional sports. The Red Sox placed Manny Ramirez on irrevocable waivers and then in the offseason, signed Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke. Did any team pick him up along with his $20 million/yr contract? Of course not. And Manny is in better health than Webber, and will probably be productive for a longer time than Webber (as baseball players seem to outlast NBA big men).
Using a baseball reference to a basketball issue doesn't work. One has a salary cap, the other does not. Sure both have luxury taxes but there's only one team that pays for it in baseball:The Yankees. Manny also had issues of taking a half-assed approach to playing which is why he was put on waivers to begin with. The Red-Sox were fed up with him.

What exactly is the purpose of keeping a player that's pretty much been tagged as a cornerstone to your franchise instead of a player that obviously wasn't gonna get any more playing time than your 12th man at this point?

It was better to let Wallace go, for now and five years down the line.
 
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#41
Garliguy said:
So if Webber were exposed in the expansion draft, big name free agents would never want to come to Sacramento for fear of being exposed in future expansion drafts?
C'mon Garli, I know you have more sense than that. If you think Webb is ultra sensitive, try 75% of the NBA! The Kings under Petrie for the most part have been a franchise that has been known to treat their players right. You just don't put someone of Chris Webber's name, his status out there in that situation and not think that people won't talk or assume things. Just look at Bobby Jackson and ask him about all that nonsense of him not playing in the playoffs. He'll tell you that the Kings didn't pressure him to play and for that he is grateful. He'll tell you that he knows other teams might have pressured him to play, but not the Kings. That's the team players want to go to, a team that respect their players and doesn't simply push them aside when people think he's no longer useful. And when all things being even, its the type of characteristic that helps sway decisions.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#42
I am not sure Webber would have been any MORE PO'ed than any other NBA Auperstar, th only real difference is that he is the only one who is of questionable health, so putting Duncan, Garnet, Kobe, McGrady or Shaq up would have resulted in loosing a Supersatar anc catapulting Charlot into the play offs. Whie I woudl not have gaurneteed that Charlot would not ahve taken a chance on Webber, it go to reason that he would have been pissed off and demaded a trade, and developed a bad attitutude jsut like any other star. As for future tallent being shy of Sac, I would guess that a demonstrated lack of integrity like that might well figgure into future negotiations with tallent free agents. Do you think that dangeling Webb would have incresed the likelyhood of Bobby Jackson re-siging?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#43
Oh God, not the expose Webber crap again.

Yeah, he would have been pissed. And he would have had a right to. Despite the claims of some people on this board, its far from a given that he does not get taken as by FAR the most talented player in the expansion draft. And its a little tough to credibly go back afterwards if he does not and ask a guy to leave it all out on the floor for us, sacrifice for the team, demonstrate leadership etc. etc. a couple of months after you tried to dump him onto the worst team in the league. I know I certainly wouldn't be feeling the warm and fuzzies toward my employer if they offered me up to Joe Bob's Legal Hut in the Ozarks last month and then started expecting me to throw in all-nighters now. Nor of course does it do anything for your standing amongst your co-employees who all know what went on.

And yes, when you treat one top player like that, something NOBODY else does, I am quite sure it would be a consideration for any other top player thinking of signing with you. Let's see, sign with the small market team with a demonstrated history of disloyalty who might dump me back into the lottery off of a championship caliber team, or sign with this other team for the same amount of money. Tough choice. If you're the Lakers maybe you can overcome that sort of conduct (of course if you're the Lakers you don't engage in it in the first place). Not if you're Sacto.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#44
Garliguy said:
So if Webber were exposed in the expansion draft, big name free agents would never want to come to Sacramento for fear of being exposed in future expansion drafts?


The reasons the Kings did not expose Webber:

1. Charlotte would not have taken injured property with an astronomical contract.

2. As a result of being exposed, fragile (both mentally and physically) Chris Webber would have been "wounded" beyond repair. You think he has cast himself as the victim now? Can you imagine what he would have been like had he been exposed in the expansion draft? We'd have to have Stuart Smalley assigned to Webber 24-7.
Or:

1. He is an integral part of the Sacramento Kings, regardless of how some fans view him.

2. Whether or not you agree (and I know you don't), the Maloofs and Geoff Petrie are fully aware of just how much Webber brings to this team. It would be total insanity to expose a player of his caliber to the expansion draft. IF they decided to get rid of him, they would trade him. You seem fully convinced the Bobcats would not have taken him. BUT what if they had?

This argument was specious at best the last time around. Now, it's simply ridiculous.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#45
Vlad said:
Had they placed Webber in the expansion draft instead of Wallace, both players would still be Kings, and the Kings core of the future (part of which was Wallace and Songaila) would still be intact. I just hope this "bonehead" move doesn't backfire 5 years down the road, when Webber is mulling retirement, the Kings still have no championships, and Wallace is leading the Bobcats to the playoffs.
Wallace part of the Kings' core of the future?

I don't know what planet you've been living on, but it became crystal clear last season that, for whatever reason, Kings management had decided they didn't see a future for Gerald Wallace with the Sacramento Kings.

Wallace leading the Bobcats to the playoffs? I wish him all the luck in the world...
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#46
Just one more thing: (Although I'm sure at least one person will say it's not about statistics, which is a nice way to avoid the obvious.)

From www.kings.com:

2004 Kings Playoff Leaders
Points
Mike Bibby 20.0
Chris Webber 18.4
Predrag Stojakovic 17.5
Doug Christie 13.8
Brad Miller 10.5

Rebounds
Brad Miller 8.7
Chris Webber 8.3
Predrag Stojakovic 7.0
Doug Christie 6.2
Vlade Divac 4.9

Assists
Mike Bibby 7.0
Doug Christie 3.9
Chris Webber 3.7
Brad Miller 3.2
Vlade Divac 1.8

Anyone who would seriously consider exposing a player to an expansion draft who puts up those kinds of numbers in the playoffs while still coming back from a serious injury is not dealing with reality.
 
#47
I liked Wallace just for his athletic play but it would have been downright stupid to risk someone like Webber to retain for a player whom the coach hardly plays.
As some have already mentioned, it would also be clearly insulting him as well. I wouldn't expect any commitment for him once something like that happens.
So once again NO WAY........
 
#49
VF21 said:
Wallace part of the Kings' core of the future?

I don't know what planet you've been living on, but it became crystal clear last season that, for whatever reason, Kings management had decided they didn't see a future for Gerald Wallace with the Sacramento Kings.

Wallace leading the Bobcats to the playoffs? I wish him all the luck in the world...
I also don't know why the Kings management didn't play him. Very good question.... I seem to remember when he did play, he played with heart and played well.

As for the Bobcats making the playoffs in five years... Competing against the likes of the Wizards, Hawks, and Magic, the Bobcats might very well make the postseason in half a decade with Okafor and Wallace. A lot can change.

I just hope the Kings' highly lauded management has a ring to show for their work before Webber drops off. By the time he is making over $22 million a season, Webb will be a 35 year old man running on creaky knees. Wallace will be 25 and playing better than ever. I wish him the best as well...
 
#50
bibbyweb said:
I liked Wallace just for his athletic play but it would have been downright stupid to risk someone like Webber to retain for a player whom the coach hardly plays.
As some have already mentioned, it would also be clearly insulting him as well. I wouldn't expect any commitment for him once something like that happens.
So once again NO WAY........
Give me a break! You wouldn't expect any commitment from him if he was put on the expansion draft? I don't see Eddie Jones or Allan Houston crying about it.

And if he lives on this planet, he would also realize that at this point, he isn't worth his salary. For all I care, management could have told him about a plan to keep him and Wallace. And if he is insulted, that should be all the more incentive for Webb to go out, be the MVP, and lead the Kings to a championship next season. He, of all people, should know the NBA is a business. If getting placed on the expansion draft would hurt his feelings so bad that he would give up on his teammates, then that's not the kind of player I want leading the Kings.
 
#51
Vlad said:
I also don't know why the Kings management didn't play him. Very good question.... I seem to remember when he did play, he played with heart and played well.

As for the Bobcats making the playoffs in five years... Competing against the likes of the Wizards, Hawks, and Magic, the Bobcats might very well make the postseason in half a decade with Okafor and Wallace. A lot can change.

I just hope the Kings' highly lauded management has a ring to show for their work before Webber drops off. By the time he is making over $22 million a season, Webb will be a 35 year old man running on creaky knees. Wallace will be 25 and playing better than ever. I wish him the best as well...
Ive got some swampland i'd like to sell you....Umm hate to tell you this but better then ever for GW isnt that high really. You watch him play? He has athleticism but would you say hes skilled enough? Seems as though you are looking or a miracle. For GW to magically see the light. I wouldnt be surprised to see him out of the league in 5 years. Wont happen most likely. Hes got alot of athleticism so teams will keep taking the chance....

Okefor could easily be a bust... I mean afterall hes not the tallest PF now.....
 
#52
Vlad said:
Give me a break! You wouldn't expect any commitment from him if he was put on the expansion draft? I don't see Eddie Jones or Allan Houston crying about it.

And if he lives on this planet, he would also realize that at this point, he isn't worth his salary. For all I care, management could have told him about a plan to keep him and Wallace. And if he is insulted, that should be all the more incentive for Webb to go out, be the MVP, and lead the Kings to a championship next season. He, of all people, should know the NBA is a business. If getting placed on the expansion draft would hurt his feelings so bad that he would give up on his teammates, then that's not the kind of player I want leading the Kings.
The teams for both of those guys were actively seeking to trade them, if i'm not mistaken. Both of them knew that.

To expose Webb in the draft would have sent a message saying "you're not an integral part of this team and we don't care if you stay or go." You may feel that way for whatever reason; Kings management doesn't. There is no competition between Wallace and Webber; if Wallace was all that and a side of fries, he would have seen a lot more playing time.
 
#54
Turkoglu - Decent player, but too similar to Peja and as long as Peja is here, Turk won't be anything other than a back up. We wouldn't have the money to give him and would've lost him to free agency, anyhow. He certainly wasn't upset about getting traded going by the interview he did afterwards. Said it was the best thing for him and the organization. With the deal, we got something we needed back and that's the best we could've asked for.

Wallace - Lots of athleticism, but he didn't fit our system. He'll probably flourish more in a fast break, lots of one on one, and iso play, team. He's the kind of player that needs his athleticism to be able to get into rhythm and he was never going to get that here in our motion offense.

Wallace had enough opportunities to show that he can adjust to our system but unfortunately that never happened. He's a good guy though, never complained about not getting minutes and touches. I wish him the best. It's too bad we didn't get anything back for him besides minor cap relief, but at least the negative effect was minimal.

The Wallace situation can be a good lesson for our rookies. They need to really work on their jump shots, and their defense. That's the only way they'll get meaningful minutes here.
 
#55
Packt said:
Turkoglu - Decent player, but too similar to Peja and as long as Peja is here, Turk won't be anything other than a back up. We wouldn't have the money to give him and would've lost him to free agency, anyhow. He certainly wasn't upset about getting traded going by the interview he did afterwards. Said it was the best thing for him and the organization. With the deal, we got something we needed back and that's the best we could've asked for.

Wallace - Lots of athleticism, but he didn't fit our system. He'll probably flourish more in a fast break, lots of one on one, and iso play, team. He's the kind of player that needs his athleticism to be able to get into rhythm and he was never going to get that here in our motion offense.

Wallace had enough opportunities to show that he can adjust to our system but unfortunately that never happened. He's a good guy though, never complained about not getting minutes and touches. I wish him the best. It's too bad we didn't get anything back for him besides minor cap relief, but at least the negative effect was minimal.

The Wallace situation can be a good lesson for our rookies. They need to really work on their jump shots, and their defense. That's the only way they'll get meaningful minutes here.
Wallace has been injury prone in the limited minutes he played. I can't imagine what type of injury problems he is going to have if he plays full time.
 
#56
Ryle said:
Wallace has been injury prone in the limited minutes he played. I can't imagine what type of injury problems he is going to have if he plays full time.
I was going to mention that, but I wasn't sure if he was put on the IL so much because he was really injured or if he was put there because they needed to put someone on and he was their least effective player position wise.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#57
Just as an aside, remember that Wallace was the one who - during one of the best performances of his Kings life - pulled himself out of a game against Dallas because he thought he felt a cramp coming on in his leg...

I still find that troublesome. The kid is trying to prove he's worth more PT; he's having a good game; and he pulls himself out because he THINKS he feels a cramp coming on?

You don't do that. In his situation, you play until your leg crumples under you. You don't hold anything back. He didn't and I think people may have remembered that.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#58
VF21 said:
Just as an aside, remember that Wallace was the one who - during one of the best performances of his Kings life - pulled himself out of a game against Dallas because he thought he felt a cramp coming on in his leg...

I still find that troublesome. The kid is trying to prove he's worth more PT; he's having a good game; and he pulls himself out because he THINKS he feels a cramp coming on?

You don't do that. In his situation, you play until your leg crumples under you. You don't hold anything back. He didn't and I think people may have remembered that.
I for one never forgot it. After that night the BEST thing that could happen forWallace was to go to a new team in a new town, short on tallent on the far side of the country and try to establish a NEW reputation. I wish him well in doing so. If he can earn a starting slot or get serious min from the bench he will no doubt be a crowd favorite... untill or unless he pulls another stunt like the leg cramp.
 
#59
I never forgot that either. Actually that is the first thing that comes to my mind whenever someone mentions Wallace.

I can't believe he took him self out of one the best games he played the whole season and a chance to earn more minutes in upcoming games. I almost partially blame him for Peja's dissapearance in this years playoffs. If Wallace didn't get in Adelman's doghouse Peja might have been more rested/focused in the playoffs.
 
#60
ReinadelosReys said:
C'mon Garli, I know you have more sense than that. If you think Webb is ultra sensitive, try 75% of the NBA! The Kings under Petrie for the most part have been a franchise that has been known to treat their players right. You just don't put someone of Chris Webber's name, his status out there in that situation and not think that people won't talk or assume things. Just look at Bobby Jackson and ask him about all that nonsense of him not playing in the playoffs. He'll tell you that the Kings didn't pressure him to play and for that he is grateful. He'll tell you that he knows other teams might have pressured him to play, but not the Kings. That's the team players want to go to, a team that respect their players and doesn't simply push them aside when people think he's no longer useful. And when all things being even, its the type of characteristic that helps sway decisions.
So Reina,
Truly, I want to understand. How do you explain what the Kings did to Vlade Divac this off season? That is, before his injury. I wonder how the Kings will treat Chris Webber when he no longer has any value to the team in managdment's eyes. How will you feel about him then? Before the trade deadline this season, or at the end of this season, or the next or the one after that when he's finally gone? When no other team will take him, unlike Vlade. Perhaps that was unwise but Vlade had enough value left in him for the Lakers to make sure he played for them and no other Western Conference team this season and next, or perhaps it was a payback for his earlier trade that allowed them to get Kobe (but I doubt it). How will that make other elite players heading into the end of their careers feel about coming to Sacramento, or should that not matter because it didn't happen to Chris Webber...yet?

Six months ago, most of us were hoping to get one more year of playing time from Vlade and lobbing around the popular idea of perhaps another year as player/coach before he went to the Kings sidelines as a great assistant coach with invaluable experience to impart to the younger players and lauded his locker room abilities. Today, most of us are congratulating ourselves on not being saddled with his injury and ignoring his vast contributions to the Kings.

How does what the team's management did with/to Vlade this off season differ with what will happen to CWebb sooner or later?

I suspect that those who are derided with an "anti-Webb" bias today will find their views validated in the not too distant future. I hope I am wrong.

I am not a Webber hater, I LOVED Chris when he came to the Kings and he tried to prove he was too good for the team (and he may have been right at that point). I guess I am a Webb disappointee. Too much bad behaviour, too many empty promises, too few flashes of the "best" of him. Too many beautiful but empty smiles. Too many declarations of what he wants to be followed by what he is. If I were his wife, I'd still love him but I'd be on the edge of divorcing him because it's all just too painful and chaoticl...LOL! :D

Not that I'm over-emotionally involved with the Kings! :eek: