GP on KHTK in a little bit
- Thread starter BMiller52
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PurpleHaze
All-Star
I think GP at 5:35 pm. Right now a member of the Cal Expo state board is talking about breaking news on a new arena and developing the fairgrounds.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Not much. GP just got back from an 11 day Euro trip, but didn't say much about it other than he looked at a couple of players he thought could be drafted in this years first round. Was asked to give a recap of this past season but no real news, just stuff like Kings won a handful more game than the previous year in the start of a rebuilding effort with new coach. Artest and even Beno are not really worth a lot of comment at the moment since both are free agents or can be. Liked Spencer's progress late in the season and a big man coach is a possibility going forward. It was a fairly short interview and the Cal Expo breaking news was joked about as maybe offering a nice new place of him to finally sit down instead of standing up all of the time in the tunnel.
He could also be looking to flip something, maybe our two second-rounders (or cash) for a late first. Phoenix, for one, has been known recently to sell off late firsts. Houston is probably in position to get rid of #25 if they don't see a player they like - looks to me that they've got 12 players committed for next year (without Chuck Hayes or Mutombo, both of whom they may want back) assuming they pick up Landry's team option. They may not want another guaranteed contract.
There are usually chances to grab late first rounders and Petrie may be doing due diligence in scoping out the 20-30 range Euros.
Geoff didn't seem to like the idea of drafting a Euro too much IMO. He said he wasn't sure if any of them could be stars and implied they could all be "roleplayers like Scola, Oberto, and Nocioni"(his actual words). But he definitely didn't sound excited about it. If we draft a Euro I bet it'll be Ajinca. He said there's only 1 player from Europe he thinks will really be drafted will be drafted high in the lottery.
He said he wanted to accelerate Spencer's development. Wonder if that means we may trade Brad.
He didn't say too much on Ron but said "he has been extremely productive when he has played".
Beno he seemed lukewarm on and mentioned how we don't have his bird rights.
He said he wanted to accelerate Spencer's development. Wonder if that means we may trade Brad.
He didn't say too much on Ron but said "he has been extremely productive when he has played".
Beno he seemed lukewarm on and mentioned how we don't have his bird rights.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I'm sure he's talking about Gallinari. I'm sure Geoff isn't real excited about the draft, it's really a lame draft IMO and we got a lame pick (for a rebuilding team.) I'm praying for a miracle in the lottery.
I really hope Spencer gets more PT next year, I think he's ready for 20-25+ mpg. Trading Brad would be a good idea, doubt we'll get much for him but anything with a shorter contract would be nice or maybe equal contract but with a prospect/draft pick thrown in.
I really hope Spencer gets more PT next year, I think he's ready for 20-25+ mpg. Trading Brad would be a good idea, doubt we'll get much for him but anything with a shorter contract would be nice or maybe equal contract but with a prospect/draft pick thrown in.
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If I may sidebar a quick second:
It's all well and to the good that Petrie puts so much attention/effort into scouting the European players. What I would be interested in knowing, however, is how much attention/effort Petrie and his staff put into scouting the players in Division I? The foreign players he signs have all seemed to develop into solid NBA players (Stojakovic, Turkoglu, Songaila), if not actually stars. He's been more hit-or-miss with the American-born players, as we seem to end up with three Tariq Abdul-Wahads for every Kevin Martin (or, at least, that's how it seems to me).
It's all well and to the good that Petrie puts so much attention/effort into scouting the European players. What I would be interested in knowing, however, is how much attention/effort Petrie and his staff put into scouting the players in Division I? The foreign players he signs have all seemed to develop into solid NBA players (Stojakovic, Turkoglu, Songaila), if not actually stars. He's been more hit-or-miss with the American-born players, as we seem to end up with three Tariq Abdul-Wahads for every Kevin Martin (or, at least, that's how it seems to me).
piksi
Hall of Famer
there was a junior euroleague finals in barselona last week or so. Best european under 18 players were there. Many scouts were present. I assume that petrie was there.
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/dejanmusli.html
this kid won the MVP. Has been dominant in his age since he was 12 years old. Still only 17 and still growing. You never know whether it will turn into another Darko or Dirk but the kid is pretty good. Next year when US is playing world team in that stupid game for highschool kids - we will be there. Will start playing senior BB next season. Needs to eat some more.
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/dejanmusli.html
this kid won the MVP. Has been dominant in his age since he was 12 years old. Still only 17 and still growing. You never know whether it will turn into another Darko or Dirk but the kid is pretty good. Next year when US is playing world team in that stupid game for highschool kids - we will be there. Will start playing senior BB next season. Needs to eat some more.
Let's see. There's Hawes, who looks like he will be better than TA-W. Kevin Martin. Francisco Garcia. Gerald Wallace. Jason Williams. Corliss Williamson. All of whom are better than TA-W
That leaves Quincy Douby as the only American-born player Petrie has drafted in the first round who has the potential to bust like Tariq. Every other one. So looks like our ratio is one bust (tops, assuming Douby busts) to three solid players, not the other way around.
Don't forget that the Kings have an entire scouting "organization". Wayne Cooper (not his focus, but been known to chip in), Jerry Reynolds (Director of Player Personnel), Scotty Stirling (Head of Scouting overall), Fat Lever, and several dedicated scouting employees.
Petrie probably just knows the European game better than anyone else on the payroll, and so he takes a European vacation every year. You can bet that Division I players have been observed and evaluated ad nauseum by the Kings scouting staff.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You beat me to it.
In the first place, I went out of my way to say Petrie "and his staff" to make it clear that I'm not putting it all on Petrie alone. And, in the second place, I don't accept your "in the first round" qualifier. Good players go in the second round all the time. Arenas went in the second round, Rashard Lewis went in the second round. Bam-Boozer, too. Michael Redd, Mehmet Okur, Mo Williams, Paul Milsap, Cuttino Mobley... they all went in the second round, and I could go on. Why do we always get stuck with the Ryan Robertsons and Ricky Minards and Corsley Edwards of the world?
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Probably because all of those players went before our pick except for Cuttino Mobley. That year we selected Jerome James and although he did not set the world on fire, he did carve out a niche in the league, which is more than most players taken in the second round. I'd also note that at the time we needed another big body to conted with Shaq, so feel free to criticize passing on Mobley, but I can't say anything because I was in favor of the pick.
Basically, as a consequence of our being very good, we either had very bad second round picks or no secound round picks because of other trades. The guys you mentioned were high upside players with a potentially fatal flaw that caused them to slip to the secound round, but were drafted in the first half of the second round.
How many second round picks did we give up for nothing? Am I supposed to believe that, instead of blowing the 45th pick in 1999 on Robertson, that we couldn't have traded the 1999 second-rounder and the 2000 second rounder to get a higher pick in the second round of either of those drafts? We all know how averse The Great and Powerful Oz is to moving up in the draft, but maybe he might actually want to think about it once in a while: surely he can do better than trading a rotation player and two second-rounders in order to get a future second-rounder...
Or can he?
Or can he?
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Two completley different arguments. If you want to evaluate every trade and decide if it was worth giving up a second round pick, feel free. However, your point was that Petrie was not spending enough times evaluating American players because we weren't getting good players in the second round. My point stands that the only one we ever passed on in the second round was Mobley.
BTW, regarding Ryan Robertson - if my memory serves me correctly - he was the lowest upside pick that Petrie ever made in the second round. However, I do not think Petrie took him based on talent. At the time Scot Pollard was about to become a free agent and we did not own his Larry Bird rights. I don't think it was a coincidence that Petrie picked Scot's best friend in the second round. Especially considering that Scot has always been a bit of an oddball and a loner. If picking Robertson helped keep Pollard in Sacramento, than it was a pick well spent.
beb0p
Starter
Trade up to draft who? Calvin Booth? Michael Ruffin?
Michael Redd? Monta Ellis?
No, it's not two different arguments. Here's how it works: Petrie's staff scouts a kid, Petrie's staff recognizes that the kid may likely not be there at the Kings' pick, Petrie trades to move up in the draft. That's how you're supposed to do that there.
Now, maybe he tried to move up and couldn't, but Petrie lost benefit of the doubt with me a long time ago. I have no reason to believe he had a shot and didn't take it.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
In your post you suggested we trade the pick we use to draft Ryan Robertson and trade it along with the next year's pick to move up in that draft. BeBop's point was that the year we drafted Ryan Robertson there were no impact players drafted ahead of him. Redd and Ellis were taken in different years.
Well, actually, what I actually said was:
Are either of you trying to suggest that nobody was available in the early second round of either of those drafts? Am I meant to believe that Team A's 1999 2nd-rounder + Team A's 2000 2nd-rounder for Team B's 1999 2nd-rounder or Team B's 2000 2nd-rounder wouldn't have worked out? I'm sure that the Great and Powerful Oz has been doing this long enough to know that most teams, with very few exceptions, don't go from early lottery to mid/late first round in one season, so it makes sense that he could have traded with a team that was bad in 1999, and had a better than fifty-percent chance that that team was still going to be bad in 2000. So, the question becomes whether you believe he couldn't have, or whether you believe that he could have, but didn't. I lean towards the latter.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
If Petrie did not have a second round pick from a prior deal, he likely did not have the necessary resources to move up in the draft. Unless you are suggesting he traded a future first rounder in order to take a chance on a player in the second round.
I get that you do not like Petrie, but you are really taking blind pot shots at him here. Your original argument that we draft 3 Wahad's (i.e. busts) for every one Martin (i.e. good picks) has slowly eroded into Petrie should have made trades to move up in the second round, with resources the team may or may not have had.
BTW, not one of the players you mentioned was acquired with a traded pick. So this argument also amounts to the fact that Petrie is an idiot for poossibly not trying to make the moves that no other GM in the entire leauge made.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Michael Smith and L. Funderburke. Those two leaped into my mind. Not sure about A. Johnson and Randy Brown. Don't remember exactly what year they were drafted.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
This is the most ridiculous argument I've heard in some time. Its bad enough to argue over who we picked or should have picked in the first round, much less, not who we picked or didn't pick in the second round, but what second round picks we should have traded to someone for a higher second or late first to pick someone who remains nameless. Unless someone can name which picks we should have traded in what year, for what future picks to pick what future player, this is nothing but pie in the sky. God, its not even summer yet.
Where you see "pie in the sky," I see a general manager that is reactive rather than proactive. And I don't like it the least little bit. I see a GM who either didn't adequately scout the talent, or wasn't willing to make the moves necessary to move up to get it. Petrie mortgaged our future to try and win it all between 2001-03, and that's to his credit, but he didn't have a backup plan, and now we're dealing with the aftermath of his failed gambit.
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This is false. He had picks in 1999 and 2000. He didn't trade them. You're expecting me to believe that he couldn't have gotten one high second-rounder in exchange for two mid/low second-rounders; I don't accept that premise. I contend that he could have done exactly that, and did not. Why he didn't is anyone's guess, but I don't skew towards the positive.
I concede that my statement was hyperbole, but it was not an argument, it was an opinion. I said "it seems to me," I did not attempt to portray it as fact. I could have used the exact words "in my opinion," but "it seems to me" is semantically equivalent. So chalk it up to piksimism, I guess, but I stand by the principle notion of my opinion, even if it is hyperbole.
You say that he may or may not have had the resources, but Petrie made picks in the second round of the 1999 and 2000 drafts, which were not acquired through trades. Whether or not he had the resources is undisputed; he had them.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that 1) I needed to do your homework for you, or 2) that you were going to no-sell the statement if I didn't name enough players. So, okay, here's a few players, some good, some not so good, but all of whom are rotation players that were acquired in the second round with a traded draft pick:
Daniel Gibson
Ryan Hollins
Royal Ivey
Chris Duhon
Luke Walton
Dan Gadzuric
Luis Scola * yeah, I know San Antonio traded him without even playing him, but he technically counts.
Earl Watson
Eddie House
Oh, and since I'm sure you're getting ready to no-sell this by saying "big deal, none of those guys are stars," I'd also like to point out that your claim of none of the guys I've named in previous posts were taken with traded picks is false: Rashard Lewis was acquired with a pick that they got from Detroit in a trade.
And, while I'm on the subject (and, no, I'm not saying that Petrie is the only GM guilty of this, but he's the only one *I* care about), Brad Miller went undrafted the same year that we took Jerome James with the 36th pick. Raja Bell went undrafted the year we took Ryan Robertson with the 45th. Ime Udoka went undrafted the year we took Jabari Smith with the 45th. Carlos Arroyo, Charlie Bell, Maurice Evans and Jamario Moon went undrafted the year we took Maurice Jeffers with the 55th. Devin Brown, Reggie Evans, Udonis Haslem and Janerro Pargo went undrafted the year we took Corsley Edwards with the 58th.
Oh, I forgot, when Petrie drops the ball, it's always "well, other GM's did, too!" Man, I hope you're not a defense attorney...
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Sptsjunkie
Starter
1 - No need to do any homework for me. We were never discussing if role players ever got drafted in the second roung. This started as a discussion about getting real impact players like Arenas, Ellis and Redd. Something tells me you still would not be singing Petrie's praises on this subject if he had traded up to get Earl Watson, Ryan Hollins or some of the other guys on this appended list. That list is highly dissapointing as it is, most of those are fringe role players or rotation players for team worse than us. I can see the headline for Petrie's firing now: "Geoff Petrie fired by Kings for failing to trade multiple second round picks he didn't have to acquire Dan Gadzuric to sit on the bench like he does for the Bucks, a worse team in a worse conference."
2 - You are right. I was using NBADraft.net and their formatting for the 1998 draft only listed draft night trades, not previous player trades which netted second round picks. That was a mistake on my part. However, if that counts, Petrie did get a 2nd round pick in the Bibby trade which is essentially the same thing as this. Seattle did not aggressively pursue a second round pick because they though Rashard Lewis would be available then.
3 - While I get the final point you are trying to make, it is still a sophistry. Yes, pointing out that other GMs have made mistakes does not mitigate another GM of his responsibilities. However, I also feel pointing out every player a GM did not draft is not a fair indictment of his abilities. We could make every GM in the history of the NBA look foolish if we were judging them by the guys they did not pick (much less trade up to acquire). My goodness, you listed Petrie taking Maurice Jeffers over Jamario Moon as a blunder. Jamario Moon was in the draft in 2001 out of a Community College. After he went undrafted, he played 6 years for teams like the Harlem Globtrotters and in the USBL before refining his skills and making it into the NBA at age 27.
Point being, you would not say a player is not a good shooter because he does not shoot 100% from the field. You would compare him against the other players at his potion. Well, the same is true with GMs. You can list undrafted players and second round suprises all day that Petrie did not select or trade up for, but that is not really proof that he is not a good talent evaluator. Compared to the other GMs in the league, Petrie has a higher "success" percentage than most, which is especially impressive when you consider that most of his picks have been further down in the draft.
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