GOSSIP - About owners, FO, coaching staff, scouts and Kings things in general

Bricklayer said:
And there you go.

So let's fix our B.S. story a little bit:

1) Dean Oliver was a longtime Denver guy, hired by PDA to come over and create his little Denver paradise West
2) Meanwhile Denver's former coach, who also knows Dean, is causing ****ing havoc within the organization trying to play politics andgain allies
3) We fire PDA
4) We tell Karl to shut up
5) Because of one of those moves Dean Oliver (could he be a leak source?) is on the outs too and is let go, or asks to go.
6) Quite obviously we no more want Oliver showing up in Vegas in an official capacity for us at that point than we'd want PDA showing up for us
Click to expand...

Spot on. I left out the leaks part from my post since I have no proof of Oliver being the culprit. But it would make some sense. In any event, he's gone and now maybe, finally, we'll have a little quiet time in the national media. Probably not....
 
Do you all get tweets piled up on your front porch? If they show the date and time it would be nice if that info is passed on.

Signed: a non-tweet recipient who enjoys reading them when they are posted on here. Thanks.
 
Bricklayer said:
People really REALLY need to quit accusing Daryl Morey of making moves based on analytics. That gets annoying after a while. Daryl Morey might like his teams to play three and dunk gimmmick ball, but his personnel moves? Good lord people. He gave that up years ago. All he does is try to cherry pick whatever star type player hits the market, regardless of analytics. Regardless of anything. he's actually been maybe the most "old school" GM in ht league for several years now playing a pure we need stars game. harden's out there, let's get him. Ooh..Dwight's out there! Sure analytics say he's not the same guy but...star! Josh Smith, ooh! Look at those numbers! You're hired! Ooh...I bet we can throw a balloon payment contract and get us some Linsanity! Or wait...how about an alcoholic PG who can't shoot! Bingo! Respect my brain bitches!

Believe it or not the league survived and great teams were built again and again before the analytics age. GMing is largely an art, not a statistical science.
Click to expand...

That's just cause you made a strawman out of analytics,

The three-and-dunk ain't "gimmick ball" this is how they play and it has been very successful.
And his moves can all justified by analytics- Dwight is a very good player by any analytics you will use... and compared to his projected value in a non-cap enviorment he is a steal (like almost any star player out there).
Harden has analytics all over him- dude main attribute is getting to the line, and as ridiculous as it sounds now- a lot of people thought he wouldn't made it as top-dog out there and Morey begged the differ... and was right!
Omer Asik was a guy analytics LOVED (and proved worthy) and both the signing of him and Lin (more of a gamble) required top-tier capology.
With Josh Smith- just like Lin (5 million per year the years he was in Houston) and to an extent Ty you see Morey buying low on guys who didn't experienced an injury or something like that being able to get back to their best.

Analytics is information and it's not just "well that guy can shoot let's take him" which is much more the old way of doing stuff... the Rockets are probably the most analytics friendly team simply based on their shot-chart...
and the whole "Believe it or not the league survived and great teams were built again and again before the analytics age." doesn't really work... because before analytics this guys didn't fight against analytics guys- it's like basically saying: "who need guns, guns are dumb- people won wars and made great armies before guns".
 
Amit149 said:
the whole "Believe it or not the league survived and great teams were built again and again before the analytics age." doesn't really work... because before analytics this guys didn't fight against analytics guys- it's like basically saying: "who need guns, guns are dumb- people won wars and made great armies before guns".
Click to expand...

Raiders%2Bof%2Bthe%2BLost%2BArk.jpg


I like what Vlade has done this summer - a lot - but if this is true:

Divac has told confidants that he is strongly opposed to the use of analytics in evaluating players
Click to expand...

I don't hold a lot of hope that we can make the right moves for years to come. Can't bring a machete to a gunfight and expect to win 'em all.
 
Amit149 said:
That's just cause you made a strawman out of analytics,

The three-and-dunk ain't "gimmick ball" this is how they play and it has been very successful.
And his moves can all justified by analytics- Dwight is a very good player by any analytics you will use... and compared to his projected value in a non-cap enviorment he is a steal (like almost any star player out there).
Harden has analytics all over him- dude main attribute is getting to the line, and as ridiculous as it sounds now- a lot of people thought he wouldn't made it as top-dog out there and Morey begged the differ... and was right!
Omer Asik was a guy analytics LOVED (and proved worthy) and both the signing of him and Lin (more of a gamble) required top-tier capology.
With Josh Smith- just like Lin (5 million per year the years he was in Houston) and to an extent Ty you see Morey buying low on guys who didn't experienced an injury or something like that being able to get back to their best.

Analytics is information and it's not just "well that guy can shoot let's take him" which is much more the old way of doing stuff... the Rockets are probably the most analytics friendly team simply based on their shot-chart...
and the whole "Believe it or not the league survived and great teams were built again and again before the analytics age." doesn't really work... because before analytics this guys didn't fight against analytics guys- it's like basically saying: "who need guns, guns are dumb- people won wars and made great armies before guns".
Click to expand...

Analytics isn't a gun. Analytics is a pencil necked squire telling a master swordsman that if he just shifts balance here and twists his arm thus, he'll deliver a killing blow. Except of course the true master swordsmen have been shifting and twisting on their own for decades. The squire might be right, he might be wrong. But he's only providing gee whiz insight to fellow abacus geeks who also have never picked up a sword.

And no, the excuses for Morey are kinda pathetic. When your guru doesn't act the way you expect, you waste everybody's time trying to invent excuses for him. Frankly some of his moves have looked a little desperate, as until the breakthrough against the Clippers they hadn't in fact been winning that much. But he's been old school GMing for a long spell now, and frankly that's a good thing. That's why he's still employed. Talent wins.

As an aside, the 3pt point shooting confluence last year at the top of the playoff rankings was, until proven otherwise, a 1yr blip. Top playoff teams are not surprisingly good at most things, but there has never been anything like that type of correlation with 3pt shooting in the past.

Annual 3pt Made Rankings of last 4 playoff teams:
2014-15: #1/#2/#3/#5 = Avg: 2.8
2013-14: #12/#14/#15/#22 = Avg: 15.8
2012-13: #3/#7/#16/#30 = Avg: 14.0
2011-12: #2/#12/#20/#22 = Avg: 14.0
2010-11: #8/#11/#15/#18 = Avg: 13.0

Now obviously I know that according to metricheads the game of basketball suddenly has radically changed in the past 10 months because, Golden State and crap. But in general, if you ignore this magical 12 month transformation of a 70yr old league you would be hard pressed to argue for some magical chucking correlation trend.
 
Amit149 said:
That's just cause you made a strawman out of analytics,

The three-and-dunk ain't "gimmick ball" this is how they play and it has been very successful.
And his moves can all justified by analytics- Dwight is a very good player by any analytics you will use... and compared to his projected value in a non-cap enviorment he is a steal (like almost any star player out there).
Harden has analytics all over him- dude main attribute is getting to the line, and as ridiculous as it sounds now- a lot of people thought he wouldn't made it as top-dog out there and Morey begged the differ... and was right!
Omer Asik was a guy analytics LOVED (and proved worthy) and both the signing of him and Lin (more of a gamble) required top-tier capology.
With Josh Smith- just like Lin (5 million per year the years he was in Houston) and to an extent Ty you see Morey buying low on guys who didn't experienced an injury or something like that being able to get back to their best.

Analytics is information and it's not just "well that guy can shoot let's take him" which is much more the old way of doing stuff... the Rockets are probably the most analytics friendly team simply based on their shot-chart...
and the whole "Believe it or not the league survived and great teams were built again and again before the analytics age." doesn't really work... because before analytics this guys didn't fight against analytics guys- it's like basically saying: "who need guns, guns are dumb- people won wars and made great armies before guns".
Click to expand...

With all due respect, the old school way is more than just, can he shoot of not. I find that remark a little insulting. I have nothing against analytic's, but I will admit that a lot of the analytic's guys that I've met, can be very annoying. (For those wondering, no, the Capt is not among them) Analytic's is about factual results that you can put to paper. It can be so detailed as to be almost boring at times. How many times on average does a PG dribble the ball to get across the halfcourt line. How many seconds on average does the typical PG take to put the ball into play. Then you break it down to the individuals and so on. I'm not against any of that. For instance I think knowing where a player is most effective on the court is a valuable thing to know. It might help a PG decide whether to pass the ball to the open man on the right, or the one on the left.

What analytic's doesn't do, is measure heart or desire. The NBA is now going to start measuring hustle. I guess by how many times you end up on the floor going for a loose ball, or how many times you rebound out of your area etc. I'm not sure what the parameters are, but do you think any old school scout needs analytic's to tell which player hustles or not? How many times are the analytic results skewed by a player playing through an injury that only he and team know about. I look at analytic's as a tool to be used, but not be hit over the head with. There are going to be times when your gut is going to differ with analytic reports, and you have to make a decision. I'll be honest, when confronted with that, I'm more inclined to go with what I've seen. Doesn't make me right all the time, but I've been right more times than I've been wrong.

An example of analytic's and my gut agreeing, but still giving a little different view, would be Tyreke Evans at Memphis. Analytic's would have said that he was very, very good at getting to the basket and finishing. I would have said that he's the best I've ever seen at this point in his career at getting to the basket and finishing. They both say the same thing, but not exactly.
 
Bricklayer said:
Analytics isn't a gun. Analytics is a pencil necked squire telling a master swordsman that if he just shifts balance here and twists his arm thus, he'll deliver a killing blow. Except of course the true master swordsmen have been shifting and twisting on their own for decades. The squire might be right, he might be wrong. But he's only providing gee whiz insight to fellow abacus geeks who also have never picked up a sword.

And no, the excuses for Morey are kinda pathetic. When your guru doesn't act the way you expect, you waste everybody's time trying to invent excuses for him. Frankly some of his moves have looked a little desperate, as until the breakthrough against the Clippers they hadn't in fact been winning that much. But he's been old school GMing for a long spell now, and frankly that's a good thing. That's why he's still employed. Talent wins.

As an aside, the 3pt point shooting confluence last year at the top of the playoff rankings was, until proven otherwise, a 1yr blip. Top playoff teams are not surprisingly good at most things, but there has never been anything like that type of correlation with 3pt shooting in the past.

Annual 3pt Made Rankings of last 4 playoff teams:
2014-15: #1/#2/#3/#5 = Avg: 2.8
2013-14: #12/#14/#15/#22 = Avg: 15.8
2012-13: #3/#7/#16/#30 = Avg: 14.0
2011-12: #2/#12/#20/#22 = Avg: 14.0
2010-11: #8/#11/#15/#18 = Avg: 13.0

Now obviously I know that according to metricheads the game of basketball suddenly has radically changed in the past 10 months because, Golden State and poopoo. But in general, if you ignore this magical 12 month transformation of a 70yr old league you would be hard pressed to argue for some magical chucking correlation trend.
Click to expand...

Again, it's like you think that analytics basically mean "3-point-shot good!" and that's it...

For example rim-protection value became much higher do to analytics, a team like the Spurs- who didn't lead the league in attempts in 2013-2014 but have put a lot of shooters on the floor and led the league in 3-point precentage was embraced by analytics... and there are a thousand other examples.

Analytics are a gun first and foremost because they are a tool- in the hands of a poor marksman a gun can lose a fight... but if you know how to use it there is an advantage to it.
Morey isn't a "guru" but all the things I said about his moves? I believe them to be true- and all of his moves can be justified by use of analytics- just cause they also fit what others may do doesn't make it wrong.

BTW it seems like management still values analytics by the 10,000 reports out there that we will hire a different analytics guy.
 
bajaden said:
With all due respect, the old school way is more than just, can he shoot of not. I find that remark a little insulting. I have nothing against analytic's, but I will admit that a lot of the analytic's guys that I've met, can be very annoying. (For those wondering, no, the Capt is not among them) Analytic's is about factual results that you can put to paper. It can be so detailed as to be almost boring at times. How many times on average does a PG dribble the ball to get across the halfcourt line. How many seconds on average does the typical PG take to put the ball into play. Then you break it down to the individuals and so on. I'm not against any of that. For instance I think knowing where a player is most effective on the court is a valuable thing to know. It might help a PG decide whether to pass the ball to the open man on the right, or the one on the left.

What analytic's doesn't do, is measure heart or desire. The NBA is now going to start measuring hustle. I guess by how many times you end up on the floor going for a loose ball, or how many times you rebound out of your area etc. I'm not sure what the parameters are, but do you think any old school scout needs analytic's to tell which player hustles or not? How many times are the analytic results skewed by a player playing through an injury that only he and team know about. I look at analytic's as a tool to be used, but not be hit over the head with. There are going to be times when your gut is going to differ with analytic reports, and you have to make a decision. I'll be honest, when confronted with that, I'm more inclined to go with what I've seen. Doesn't make me right all the time, but I've been right more times than I've been wrong.

An example of analytic's and my gut agreeing, but still giving a little different view, would be Tyreke Evans at Memphis. Analytic's would have said that he was very, very good at getting to the basket and finishing. I would have said that he's the best I've ever seen at this point in his career at getting to the basket and finishing. They both say the same thing, but not exactly.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean that the only thing old school can do his say can he shoot or not.

Breaking down video or seeing things in person is still a great tool that should be utilized, but analytics is another tool that can tell you things- they are best one you can use both of them.
in regard to hustle, there is an hustle statistic which was just intruduced by sportsview.

Now while old school have it pros there are also cons the major one that should be taken into notice is that even professional old-school guys can't analyze all the games needed- and even in games they see there is a good chance of missing something.
Now of course analytics aren't perfect- but for example if analytics will tell you a detail about a guy (let's say a weakness) and you can go with that and check the video to see what the problem is you are in far better shape.
 
Amit149 said:
That's just cause you made a strawman out of analytics,

The three-and-dunk ain't "gimmick ball" this is how they play and it has been very successful.
And his moves can all justified by analytics- Dwight is a very good player by any analytics you will use... and compared to his projected value in a non-cap enviorment he is a steal (like almost any star player out there).
Harden has analytics all over him- dude main attribute is getting to the line, and as ridiculous as it sounds now- a lot of people thought he wouldn't made it as top-dog out there and Morey begged the differ... and was right!
Omer Asik was a guy analytics LOVED (and proved worthy) and both the signing of him and Lin (more of a gamble) required top-tier capology.
With Josh Smith- just like Lin (5 million per year the years he was in Houston) and to an extent Ty you see Morey buying low on guys who didn't experienced an injury or something like that being able to get back to their best.

Analytics is information and it's not just "well that guy can shoot let's take him" which is much more the old way of doing stuff... the Rockets are probably the most analytics friendly team simply based on their shot-chart...
and the whole "Believe it or not the league survived and great teams were built again and again before the analytics age." doesn't really work... because before analytics this guys didn't fight against analytics guys- it's like basically saying: "who need guns, guns are dumb- people won wars and made great armies before guns".
Click to expand...

From a non-stats, non-analytics guy - analytics and non-analytics FO's would pick at least nine out of ten guys exactly the same, no? Like height, weight, ppg, any stats, all stats, arrest record, school grades, all info including analytics is useful and necessary to help make the right pick. Isn't analytic stats? Are there secret formulas like great chefs' recipes?
 
Man, if the Divac is so opposed to analytics and is looking to hire former players for his FO, why not go after Charles Barkley? Seems like a perfect job for him.

Plus he may be able to teach Cousins a thing or two, both are from Alabama as well so there's that connection.
 
PHXSUNSFAN said:
Man, if the Divac is so opposed to analytics and is looking to hire former players for his FO, why not go after Charles Barkley? Seems like a perfect job for him.

Plus he may be able to teach Cousins a thing or two, both are from Alabama as well so there's that connection.
Click to expand...

Not sure if serious?

Cuz and Chuck hate each other.
 
PHXSUNSFAN said:
Man, if the Divac is so opposed to analytics and is looking to hire former players for his FO, why not go after Charles Barkley? Seems like a perfect job for him.

Plus he may be able to teach Cousins a thing or two, both are from Alabama as well so there's that connection.
Click to expand...

The same part of Alabama? Big difference.

And maybe Vlade just doesn't like the cook, not his recipes.

Just because you pick blue for your uniforms doesn't mean you don't like gold.
 
Amit149 said:
Again, it's like you think that analytics basically mean "3-point-shot good!" and that's it...

For example rim-protection value became much higher do to analytics, a team like the Spurs- who didn't lead the league in attempts in 2013-2014 but have put a lot of shooters on the floor and led the league in 3-point precentage was embraced by analytics... and there are a thousand other examples.

Analytics are a gun first and foremost because they are a tool- in the hands of a poor marksman a gun can lose a fight... but if you know how to use it there is an advantage to it.
Morey isn't a "guru" but all the things I said about his moves? I believe them to be true- and all of his moves can be justified by use of analytics- just cause they also fit what others may do doesn't make it wrong.

BTW it seems like management still values analytics by the 10,000 reports out there that we will hire a different analytics guy.
Click to expand...

Rim protection value became much higher???

Are you by any chance very young? Rim protection has in the past been given such overwhelming value that titanic creatures with essentially no other skills like Mark Eaton (a former auto mechanic) or Manute Bol (a frickin' Dinka tribesman) were employed just to stand back there and rim protect. Don't be fooled just because our idiot organization, which btw has only 8 winning seasons in 30 years for a reason, never valued the stuff. If anything the recent focus on the largely mythical stretch 4, and the not so mythical P&R all the time offense have been trying to argue in more mobile centers who can't defend the rim like an Eaton, but who can at least stay in front of a guard on a perimeter switch.

And of course we're gong to have a numbers cruncher. That has been standard personnel in a front office for decades probably.
 
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Last edited by a moderator:
Bricklayer said:
Rim protection value became much higher???

Are you by any chance very young? Rim protection has in the past been given such overwhelming value that titanic creatures with essentially no other skills like Mark Eaton (a former auto mechanic) or Manute Bol (a frickin' Dinka tribesman) were employed just to stand back there and rim protect. Don't be fooled just because our idiot organization, which btw has only 8 winning seasons in 30 years for a reason, never valued the stuff. If anything the recent focus on the largely mythical stretch 4, and the not so mythical P&R all the time offense have been trying to argue in more mobile centers who can't defend the rim like an Eaton, but who can at least stay in front of a guard on a perimeter switch.

And of course we're gong to have a numbers cruncher. That has been standard personnel in a front office for decades probably.
Click to expand...

I'll try to better explain myself- rim-protection was always valued- but it was mostly by looking at your blocks per game number.

In some context it still is- DeAndre jordan was a strong nominee for DPOY because of his block numbers, but by looking further into the numbers and rim-protection stats shows he is perfectly average at that.

So yes- rim-protection was always coveted but it was looked at wrong.
 
The Weasels cronie is fired and Vlade is searching for another nerd, nothing to see here.

Analytics should only be used to confirm your eye test. Analytics cant account for heart, competitive fire, will to win, professionalism, work ethic, team chemistry. I hate the notion that is growing that dissing analytics makes you a dumb simpleton stuck in the past. Guys like Barkley are right to a huge extent, I dont need a spreadsheet to tell me if a player is good. If you know the game you can tell the winners from the losers just by watching. Summon the nerds after to confirm what Im watching, but I dont need that stuff 24/7 and especially I am not making basketball decisions solely based on numbers on graph paper.

I dont need a spreadsheet to tell me Derrick Williams is only good for a highlight dunk once or twice a month. Also that Darren Collison is much better shooting 3's from the corners and top of the key midrange jumpers than other spots. Guess what? Thats what we used to call SWEET SPOTS!
 
One more voice on the whole Dean Oliver situation:

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave 2h2 hours agoSacramento, CA
Again- the Kings' relationship with Oliver has nothing to do with yay/nay on analytics. Expect a new hire in that department soon.

Kings fans need to trust in Vlade AND not buy into anything the national media spews. I'm willing to bet half of them couldn't even find their way to Sleep Train from the airport. ;)
 
My dream outcome/scenario is that the Kings win this season, and anti-data people use it as an argument against analytics in their arguments with the analytic cult, even though the Kings are continuing to use analytics and hired another analytics guy. One side will argue that they ditched analytics, while the people now claiming the Kings ARE ditching analytics will have to backtrack and say they actually are using analytics.
 
From the past 2 pages in this thread, I would conclude that James Ham is closer to accurate about Kings details than pretty much any other reporter (including Carmichael Dave).
 
what I'm trying to figure out is...if Dean Oliver is one of the best analytic guys out there, why get rid of him?
 
It could just be a matter of Vlade wanting to bring in someone he feels is equally good (or better) who is 'his' man, someone he knows he can trust. With the toxic cloud of mistrust and general weaseliness that hung over the FO pre-Vlade, I can't say I blame him. I would assume Dean Oliver would also have been frustrated in his role, as Vlade pretty much came riding in on his white horse, drew a line in the sand that said this is MY team, don't F with me, and from all accounts, made his own decisions. I would bet analytics don't particularly support some of the moves Vlade made, primarily because while adding talent was, of course, paramount, changing the culture was even more so. I could see them butting heads over that. If you are strictly a numbers guy, the nuances of what builds a TEAM of guys who will mesh is a concept that may elude you.
 
As has been mentioned several times on this forum, Vlade has a unique relationship with Popovich - and perhaps we can even surmise he looks at Pop as a mentor. As such, I thought perhaps gaining some insight into how Pop treats analytics might also give us some understanding of Vlade's perspective:

For Popovich, statistics can help, but don’t always tell the proper story.
http://projectspurs.com/2015-articl...lp-but-dont-always-tell-the-proper-story.html

Someone asked Pop an analytics-oriented question pregame: "I'll look it up on my computer as soon as I buy one."
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/3/6/4073190/gregg-popovich-doesnt-have-computer-spurs

Go Kings!
 
kingsboi said:
what I'm trying to figure out is...if Dean Oliver is one of the best analytic guys out there, why get rid of him?
Click to expand...

who says he is one of the best?

Who says that being "one of the best" is terribly relevant in that field?

He wrote a book, helped start a ****ed up movement that has resulted in more people who don't know anything thinking they do and spewing ignorance across the basketball horizon than anything that came before it. But is he anything special as an analytics guy? Is there such a thing as a special analytics guy? Because a number of the top guys are basically self-loving bullcrap artists making up cute formulas and then pitching them to the masses as be alls.

When I go deep into NBA.com or SpurtsVu or bballref.com statistical anlyses, am I practicing "analytics"? If I'm not, exactly what additional magic doyou think a "top analytics guy" is going to be able to provide? Meanwhile Capt. Fact can tell you almsot anythign you want to know about the salary cap rules...because he looks them up on the internet. What possible additiinal magic can a "cap guru" provide beyond knowing the rules and applying them judiciously? Too much is made of these positions sometimes. They are necessary, but hardly so obscure as they are made out.
 
CVKingsfan said:
As has been mentioned several times on this forum, Vlade has a unique relationship with Popovich - and perhaps we can even surmise he looks at Pop as a mentor. As such, I thought perhaps gaining some insight into how Pop treats analytics might also give us some understanding of Vlade's perspective:

For Popovich, statistics can help, but don’t always tell the proper story.
http://projectspurs.com/2015-articl...lp-but-dont-always-tell-the-proper-story.html

Someone asked Pop an analytics-oriented question pregame: "I'll look it up on my computer as soon as I buy one."
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/3/6/4073190/gregg-popovich-doesnt-have-computer-spurs

Go Kings!
Click to expand...

A little more context:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...shocked-the-spurs-won-a-sloan-analytics-award
 
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