GOAT - Lebron James or Michael Jordan?
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kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I'm going with Bron. He's done more with less in his career in terms of consistently taking his team to the championship game and he's proven that when you get him at least another quality all-star, he can win it all. He can only do so much on his own so he's fallen short three times versus the same team and beat them once. The amount of championships isn't the end of all conversations for me though, I look at overall elevating the play of his teammates during his career and that you can put him on any team in the NBA and they would be a playoff team, even without making any other move.
Semi
Bench
Lebron is WAY too soft for me to even think about calling him the GOAT. He is definitely one of the greatest but not THE greatest. All the talk about him not having enough around him is exactly why I can't consider him over MJ. MJ would just will himself to win the game. If the game was on the line or close, you knew MJ was going to take the shot and there was nothing you could do about it but lose. I have watched Lebron shrink and defer to lesser players WAAAAY too many times.
It's hard to have any kind of meaningful conversations about GOAT-whatever, without coming to a consensus about what baseline criteria you're using. I personally have never been compelled by the two strongest arguments in favor of Jordan, those being "RINGZZZ~!" and "6-0 in the Finals!" I mean, if the former argument is the Big Joker, then the GOAT is Bill Russell, and if the latter is the Big Joker, then the GOAT is John Havlicek.
What fascinates me about Michael Jordan is how he shifted the paradigm in terms of what fans expect from a star player, as it pertains to the whole notion of "will to win." Before Jordan, people didn't really think of "will to win" in terms of taking the "big shot," even though that still happened. But you'll also recall that the guy who was most well known for being "clutch" through the first forty years of the NBA was 1-8 in the Finals. Another player, who played in Jordan's era, is also widely known for being "clutch," and "having a will to win" and "wanting the big shot in the big moment"... that guy only went to the Finals once, and retired ring-less.
Guys like Cousy, Russell, Pettit, Barry, Abdul-Jabbar, Walton and, later, Johnson, Irving and Thomas, those guys really didn't have a reputation for hitting the "big shots," but nobody ever questioned their will to win. Jordan glamorized and apparently codified this whole concept of "taking the shot" as the primary characteristic of having a "will to win." Even Bird, who had a reputation for making shots, was arguably better known for timely defensive stops and timely passes. Before Jordan, the defining characteristic of having a "will to win" was making the right basketball play. And I don't know if a strong argument can be made that Michael Jordan was better at making the right basketball play than LeBron James.
What fascinates me about Michael Jordan is how he shifted the paradigm in terms of what fans expect from a star player, as it pertains to the whole notion of "will to win." Before Jordan, people didn't really think of "will to win" in terms of taking the "big shot," even though that still happened. But you'll also recall that the guy who was most well known for being "clutch" through the first forty years of the NBA was 1-8 in the Finals. Another player, who played in Jordan's era, is also widely known for being "clutch," and "having a will to win" and "wanting the big shot in the big moment"... that guy only went to the Finals once, and retired ring-less.
Guys like Cousy, Russell, Pettit, Barry, Abdul-Jabbar, Walton and, later, Johnson, Irving and Thomas, those guys really didn't have a reputation for hitting the "big shots," but nobody ever questioned their will to win. Jordan glamorized and apparently codified this whole concept of "taking the shot" as the primary characteristic of having a "will to win." Even Bird, who had a reputation for making shots, was arguably better known for timely defensive stops and timely passes. Before Jordan, the defining characteristic of having a "will to win" was making the right basketball play. And I don't know if a strong argument can be made that Michael Jordan was better at making the right basketball play than LeBron James.
kingsfan1984
Starter
Lebron from age 30 onwards has been good at end of games...but before then he disappeared on the biggest stage too often where MJ would morph into a God in Nikes
Bill Russell and Magic are in my conversation.
rosa u podne
Bench
Missing the "Other" option.
lwc
Starter
I co-sign this.
I think that's a different conversation. I truly believe regardless of how many others you put into the equation, Jordan and James will always get the most votes. For that reason I opted to just boil it down to the two of them.
BeerNerd916
Bench
LeBron is probably the most physically dominant specimen to ever lace them up. An argument can definitely be made that he lacked the help Jordan had.
But it's still Jordan. His scoring and defense were other worldly in an era of hoops that was more geared toward the big man and defense. Not to mention his clutch scoring gene.
The defining moment of Jordan's careerwas60 on the Celts. That was a GREAT defensive team both individually and collectively and he tore their asses up in an era where single player dominance was at an all time low and the 3 pointer was a complete afterthought. Unless you were able to watch both players and see just how much Jordan dominated on both sides of the ball versus LeBron on both sides you cant make a real argument.
LeBron is more physically gifted than Jordan was. But Jordan had a much different mindset. He would beat you on both ends of the court, something LeBron just cant compare with.
But it's still Jordan. His scoring and defense were other worldly in an era of hoops that was more geared toward the big man and defense. Not to mention his clutch scoring gene.
The defining moment of Jordan's careerwas60 on the Celts. That was a GREAT defensive team both individually and collectively and he tore their asses up in an era where single player dominance was at an all time low and the 3 pointer was a complete afterthought. Unless you were able to watch both players and see just how much Jordan dominated on both sides of the ball versus LeBron on both sides you cant make a real argument.
LeBron is more physically gifted than Jordan was. But Jordan had a much different mindset. He would beat you on both ends of the court, something LeBron just cant compare with.
The defining moment of Jordan's career was a game he lost, in a series he got swept in?
I've been a fan of the NBA since 1963, so I can honestly state I've watched a lot of basketball. I didn't even like Lebron James when he first came into the league - and I saw his first NBA game in person in Arco. I cannot deny his level of dominance, however. I think there's an argument on both sides but at the end of the day if I had one player in his prime to build a team around it would hands down be James. No ifs, ands or buts.
BeerNerd916
Bench
I was live at his first game too. Jordan was more impressive in his rookie year.
Not to mention Jordan won both MVP awards AND DPOY awards. LeBrin has NEVER done that. LeBron doesn't play both sides of the ball like Jordan did. Jordan would lock down the opposing teams best scorer on one end and be the best scorer on the other end. That is not easy. It's like being the best cornerback and best wide receiver in the same game. LeBron is like the best quarterback. One is more difficult to pull off than the other.
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BeerNerd916
Bench
Yes! Because NOBODY could have that defining effect on the Celtics. They were something stupid like 40-1 @ home that year. And their reactions after Jordan single handedly took that game to double OT. The Bulls weren't supposed to be that tough on the Celts. What did Jordan drop the previous game. Like 45? And you think after he dropped damn near 50 on them they weren't keying their whole defense on stopping him? There were st least 5 HOF players on that Celts team. Jordan came back and dropped MORE on that ass!!
Yes it was the defining moment of his career. It proved he was unstoppable at 23 years old.
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Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Jordan was also 21 years old his rookie year while Lebron was only 18
Section 101
All-Star
Jordon. Rules were much tougher when he played. Put him in today's game and he averages 40+.
Jordon was also first team defense for 9 years and DPOY. LBJ has 5 first team and 1 second.
Jordon was also first team defense for 9 years and DPOY. LBJ has 5 first team and 1 second.
whitechocolate
Bench
Jordan is the GOAT in my view. My criteria isn't numbers based. I'm not even going to bring up the list of tools he brings to the court. For me the deciding factor is the artistry of his play. He mastered the game to such a degree that he became a living work of art. Still shots of him are beautiful. The flow of his motion is beautiful. He transcended the game like nobody else.
Not sure as I was still very young in Jordan's prime, but someone (maybe Barkley?) mentioned that LeBron has way way more influence on his team than Jordan ever did in the sense of being able to dictate personnel decisions, control how he wants the team to play, control the coach etc. In that sense, the argument is that LeBron's ability to win and dominate is made far easier than anybody else... His legacy then, as great as it is, is also helped (and thus not as great as say Jordan's) largely by this other side that he controls.
That information would probably come as a surprise to Scottie Pippen.
But, he did get stopped... and then he got stopped for the next three years after that.
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Are you talking about the same today's game where zone defenses are legal, and you're basically allowed to double a man who doesn't have the ball?
But wait, your mans said that LeBron James doesn't play both sides of the ball, though? Who am I supposed to believe?
So, your argument is basically that Michael Jordan is the GOAT, because of how he made you feel when you were watching him? I mean, I guess...
BeerNerd916
Bench
Would you grow up and make a case and quit asking everyone asinine questions and throwing out shades one liners to fit an agenda that you wont even man up and state. You act like a spoiled ass teenager dude.
- I don't give takes on command.
- If you don't think I'm making a case, then what do you think my "agenda" is? Why do you assume I even have an agenda?
I still probably give my vote to Magic with Russell also in the discussion, but solely between the two, factoring in this season, I am giving the nod to LeBron. He consistently gets the most out of the least. MJ had stacked teams during what I consider to be non-peak NBA, the league had rapidly expanded adding 6 teams in 7 years prior to the big Euro movement happening. sub-500 teams in the playoffs still happened regularly - 39 wins was enough to get the Kings in the playoffs in 96 while narrowly missing on the last day of the season in 95.
The taking of his talents to South Beach was alarming to me but when he returned to Cleveland he's managed to take progressively worse teams in a progressively better Eastern conference to the finals every year. He even beat the 73 win Warriors which denied them likely basketball immortality. Then he took a team assembled at the trade deadline back this year where prior to being humbled by the Warriors they beat quality opponents through LeBron's sheer will.
I think Pippen's Bulls in 94 should have beat NY and were good enough to go to the finals that year. LeBron's teams are lottery teams without him.
The taking of his talents to South Beach was alarming to me but when he returned to Cleveland he's managed to take progressively worse teams in a progressively better Eastern conference to the finals every year. He even beat the 73 win Warriors which denied them likely basketball immortality. Then he took a team assembled at the trade deadline back this year where prior to being humbled by the Warriors they beat quality opponents through LeBron's sheer will.
I think Pippen's Bulls in 94 should have beat NY and were good enough to go to the finals that year. LeBron's teams are lottery teams without him.
This is a point that doesn't get brought up nearly often enough when these discussions take place. Whenever people talk about LeBron James dominating in the "weak" east, they always conveniently fail to acknowledge that the league expanded three times during Michael Jordan's career: twice before the first three-peat, and one more time immediately before the second three-peat.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
In that case, Tyreke is GOAT for the feeling I got watching him hit that half court buzzer beater against Memphis.
whitechocolate
Bench
What can I say? I think there's is a correlation between level of basketball talent and how beautiful a player looks doing what they're good at. Imagine some players who were among the best at various skills and tell me they didn't look particularly good doing them. I'm not saying it's a perfect correlation, but everything Jordan did was "pretty...so pretty" and nobody could make him "look like a chump".
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