Giving up on WCS? (split from game thread)

[John Galt]

Not sure why your not comfortable with the ball in his hands. He's fourth on the team in assists with only Bogdanovic, Fox, and Mason creating more assists. His assist to turnover ratio isn't quite two to one, but it's close. Willie has shown himself to be not only a good passer for a 7 footer, but he's a very unselfish player. The ball seldom stops with him, and a lot of the time that it does, is when he gets the ball with time running out, and has to shoot it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Watch a game with your attention strictly on Willie, and keep track of how many times he stops penetration by the other team, and then gets back to his man. That doesn't show up in a stat sheet. Everyone is concerned about blocking shots. Well what Willie does, is prevent the situation where you need to block a shot. Stopping penetration by the opposing team is actually better than blocking a shot, because it keeps your defense from breaking down.

Do wish that Willie rebounded better? Damm right I do, but in the last few games, I noticed that many times Willie had blocked out but didn't get the rebound. Thing is, one of his teammates did because of his block out. I'm not making excuses for him, because there are times when he doesn't head to the basket when the shot is in the air. However, many of those times Willie is one of the first people back on defense. So far, I'm fairly pleased with his progress this season. Next season, I expect more, a lot more.

possibly there are just a few outlier incidences that are burned into my brain where he goes all ballerina and then bricks a layup... and when he does that I always think "there he goes working on "his game" again.. jeez". But maybe by and large he's more solid than I'm giving him credit for.

My eye test - he's often trying to do a twirly, whirly, hook - no await layup - no wait hook" and he's seems like he's experimenting at the expense of that particular NBA possession.

I don't hate the dude - just think sometimes he wants to play over his head a little.

 

[kingsboi]

Which is why if I had to pick one I'd rather have Noel at 5mil than WCS at 15mil.

I'm glad they don't have to pick either

 

[mac]

possibly there are just a few outlier incidences that are burned into my brain where he goes all ballerina and then bricks a layup... and when he does that I always think "there he goes working on "his game" again.. jeez". But maybe by and large he's more solid than I'm giving him credit for.

My eye test - he's often trying to do a twirly, whirly, hook - no await layup - no wait hook" and he's seems like he's experimenting at the expense of that particular NBA possession.

I don't hate the dude - just think sometimes he wants to play over his head a little.

You're not alone based on the eye test.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I'm glad they don't have to pick either

Who is there to pick? I’d prefer to draft a big. Koufos has been solid, but in terms of FA? Nurkic? Not sure he’s shown much more. Capela will take a lot and probably stay in Houston. Jordan? I mean, there are other options but not sure how under the radar they will be in terms of affordability

Last year I thought Noel showed stretches, as in previous years, where he could be a positive option, hence why Dallas initially offered as much as they did.

 

[ppine]

I mentioned Whiteside because I believe he had some psychological issues just like Willie has.

 

[bajaden]

possibly there are just a few outlier incidences that are burned into my brain where he goes all ballerina and then bricks a layup... and when he does that I always think "there he goes working on "his game" again.. jeez". But maybe by and large he's more solid than I'm giving him credit for.

My eye test - he's often trying to do a twirly, whirly, hook - no await layup - no wait hook" and he's seems like he's experimenting at the expense of that particular NBA possession.

I don't hate the dude - just think sometimes he wants to play over his head a little.

Well, I think to some extent your right. There is a point where you start to use what you've been practicing in a real game. Many times, that means a few bumps in the road. Unfortunately, there is no other way. What you hope for is that the player learns from that and makes adjustments. What I've gleaned from watching is that to some extent, Willie is affected by whom he's playing against. In other words, he feels more confident against some players more than others.

When he lacks confidence, he tends to rush things, and it usually results in laying the ball up too hard off the glass. In his last game, he got his shot blocked early by Capela. Not a unique incident, since that's what Capela does. From that point on, I thought Willie rushed almost every other shot he took in the first half. However, he did make an adjustment at halftime, and slowed down in the second half, and was more successful as a result. He's going through a learning process of what the can and can't do. I don't think that JT ever figured it out. I think Willie will. But that's just my opinion and I've been wrong at least once in my life....

 

[Mike]

Who is there to pick? I’d prefer to draft a big. Koufos has been solid, but in terms of FA? Nurkic? Not sure he’s shown much more. Capela will take a lot and probably stay in Houston. Jordan? I mean, there are other options but not sure how under the radar they will be in terms of affordability

Last year I thought Noel showed stretches, as in previous years, where he could be a positive option, hence why Dallas initially offered as much as they did.

The issue with free agent bigs in this current era is that if you do invest in someone and give them a pay day to get them here, it is going to be incredibly difficult to move on from them.

Maybe Joakim Noah is a bad example because the Knicks should never have given him the contract they did in the first place (he was coming off an injury hit season and the previous year he had declined significantly), but in years gone by signing a player like Noah would be considered a good business, however in this era no one really wants a player of his style, and if they do they aren't going to pay the salary that he currently earns ($17.765m this season, $18.530m next season, and $19.295m in the final season). So the Knicks will arguably have him on the books for at least next season because that contract will be near impossible to move without attaching a draft pick or young talent to the deal.

So I would be hesitant at signing someone like Clint Capela to a large pay day because if he doesn't work out teams aren't going to be lining up to take him off our hands, and if they do, we will have to sacrifice a pick or a young player to sweeten any deal.

For me, the center that appeals to me the most in free agency would be Brook Lopez. He is having a down year and perhaps that will lower his price tag, but in recent seasons with the Nets he's been a 20 a night player and has developed a useful three point shot which gives him extend range. Granted his rebounding has always been lackluster, but he is a decent shot blocker. So if we wanted someone to start for us at center that can contribute and take pressure off the young guys having to be go to scorers, then Lopez is someone we could add if he hits open market and would be open to a move to a team like ours.

Personally I would look to draft a replacement big rather than invest significant cap space on one.

 

[whozit]

Well, I think to some extent your right. There is a point where you start to use what you've been practicing in a real game. Many times, that means a few bumps in the road. Unfortunately, there is no other way. What you hope for is that the player learns from that and makes adjustments. What I've gleaned from watching is that to some extent, Willie is affected by whom he's playing against. In other words, he feels more confident against some players more than others.

When he lacks confidence, he tends to rush things, and it usually results in laying the ball up too hard off the glass. In his last game, he got his shot blocked early by Capela. Not a unique incident, since that's what Capela does. From that point on, I thought Willie rushed almost every other shot he took in the first half. However, he did make an adjustment at halftime, and slowed down in the second half, and was more successful as a result. He's going through a learning process of what the can and can't do. I don't think that JT ever figured it out. I think Willie will. But that's just my opinion and I've been wrong at least once in my life....

What you've been wrong about being wrong?

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

I think a lot of people have been disappointed in Willie’s rebounding because of the expectations that he was like Tyson Chandler or even DeAndre Jordan. They expected Willie to be a monster rebounder, 15+ rebounds a game. He was not that kind of player in college and he is really just not that kind of player, he is not the big hulking prototype center who makes his living in the paint.

There are some people on here who constantly throw out the 10 rebounds a game figure. But 10 rebounds per how many minutes would be a better measure. During a 22-game stretch from the time he came back from his back injury until he hurt his knee, Willie averaged 7.7 rebounds in 30.1 minutes (Also 14.7 Points). That calculates to 9.2 rebounds and 17.6 points PER36.

So, in order to get to that magic greater than 10 rebounds, we are only talking about a couple rebounds per game. I think he can improve his rebounding by those 2 or 3 rebounds and become a 10-12 PER36 rebounder.

A couple of observations about Willie’s rebounding.

This one is my pet peeve, I see Willie defer to smaller teammates, usually to a wing or guard, one or two times almost every game, when he is in position to grab a rebound. He is a little too passive at times. It’s kind of like, “OK, man you take it”.

He may just be trying to be a good unselfish team mate. It doesn’t cost the team a possession, because a team mate winds up with the ball and all is good, except, it hurts Willie’s individual numbers, but more importantly, I would like for Willie to develop that more aggressive attitude that the really good rebounders have. That selfish “That’s my ball!” kind of attitude.

The really good rebounders will knock a team mate into the third row to get a rebound. That attitude carries over into all aspects of their rebounding.

The other thing is his position on the floor, I’m not talking about fighting for rebounding position under the basket, but his actual location on the floor.

On the defensive end of the floor, Willie spends a lot of time guarding on the perimeter away from the basket making it harder to gather a rebound and also limiting his rim protection to a certain extent. Sometimes it is because he is guarding a stretch four who pulls him away from the basket or he has switched to a smaller player.

Also, I see a lot of times that Willie is the one closing out on the shooter, in which case his momentum takes him away from the basket. This defensive strategy appears to be by design as his agility and ability to switch and stay in front of smaller players is part of his unique skill set.

While this is part of his game, he needs to work on finding ways to rebound out of his area, coming back to the basket, maybe at least getting a few more of the long rebounds.

Offensively, I see Willie playing away from the basket a lot, providing spacing for Z-Bo, Koufus or whoever, to work inside. Also, Joerger has him playing as a high post facilitator a lot.

This also takes him out from under the basket. During those situations, when the opportunity presents itself, he needs to “dive” to the rim for the offensive put back, however, this has to be balanced with the need to get back on defense and prevent the easy break away basket. Often times, Willie is the first one back on defense.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

Willie’s defense has been the subject of a fair amount of criticism, but really the Kings team defense as a whole is very deserving of a fair amount of criticism. Much of the defensive lapses can be attributed to the youth of the team.

One of the biggest issues with the Kings team defense is the constant need for help, because of not stopping the ball on the perimeter. The opposition guards and wings blow by our guards and wings and are getting into the lane and finishing, kicking out, or dishing down at will.

Our bigs may have the most defensive responsibility in the league because of the team’s inability to guard out on the perimeter. Kings’ bigs just have a huge amount of ground to cover because of poor team defense.

Willie is a part of the defense, and there is a perception (supported by stats) that he’s regressed into a poor defender. But the Kings have been a team riddled with poor defenders and this does impact Willies defensive numbers and I believe it also indirectly affects his rebounding by forcing him out of position away from the basket.

 

[ppine]

Willie has talent. He uses it when he feels like it. That is the problem right there. You can rationalize why his defense and rebounding often do not meet expectations. It is all very subjective. Willie takes plays off and has some fear of injury by his own admission. To be a great rebounder in the NBA a player needs to be fearless and highly aggressive two traits which Willie clearly lacks.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

Rationalize:

attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate

I assume you are using term in the above context?

Frankly, I am a little disappointed that you would accuse me of rationalizing Willie’s basketball development issues. I thought I presented plausible, logical, reasons why Willie’s results aren’t where a lot of people would like them to be, but also how they aren’t insurmountable and can be improved upon. I think Willie is a long way off from being a finished project. He’s got a lot to work on and from all reports is a hard worker.

This isn’t your grandfather’s NBA where big hulking centers ruled the paint. The wide bodied, thick, low-to-the-ground bigs are obsolete. Now teams thirst for the nimble and athletic seven-footer who can play position less basketball. This requires an entirely different skill set and approach to the game. Willie is still learning and I suspect Joerger is still learning how best to use Willie.

But, it appears you have already made up your mind are already of a biased opinion and find it necessary to demean his character. You say he takes plays off, do you have stats to back this up? That he takes more plays off than any other player? How many plays a game does he take off on average? Or is all just that “eye test”?

Joerger doesn’t not appear to be the kind of coach who would tolerate a player consistently taking plays off. He does not appear to have any reluctance to sit a player. I guess that is why Willie is first or second in minutes played.

 

[Kingster]

possibly there are just a few outlier incidences that are burned into my brain where he goes all ballerina and then bricks a layup... and when he does that I always think "there he goes working on "his game" again.. jeez". But maybe by and large he's more solid than I'm giving him credit for.

My eye test - he's often trying to do a twirly, whirly, hook - no await layup - no wait hook" and he's seems like he's experimenting at the expense of that particular NBA possession.

I don't hate the dude - just think sometimes he wants to play over his head a little.

LOL. That deserves a like just for that one sentence!

 

[ppine]

JCTNKINGFAN,
Do not take offense. None of my comments were directed at you.
I have watched a lot of basketball for over 50 years and played for 40. That is my resume. I could be wrong but I doubt it when it comes to Willie.
You can believe Willie struggles on defense because the rest of the team is weak on the perimeter. Go ahead. You can believe anything you want about his lackadasical rebounding.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

JCTNKINGFAN,
Do not take offense. None of my comments were directed at you.
I have watched a lot of basketball for over 50 years and played for 40. That is my resume. I could be wrong but I doubt it when it comes to Willie.
You can believe Willie struggles on defense because the rest of the team is weak on the perimeter. Go ahead. You can believe anything you want about his lackadasical rebounding.

We're cool, you're entitled to your opinion. You weren't rude. I've watched a lot of basketball, too, over the last 50 years, seen a lot of changes in the game but also in the people in the game. I was a big Wilt fan late in his career when he played with the (Gasp!) Lakers late 60s to 70s. There was your prototype old school center.

Played a lot of playground pickup games in to my 40s then knees, back, and legs said no more.

I believe in Willie. I believe he has a lot to work on but he is a special talent. I think he had made a lot of progress.I don't believe he is as lazy and sorry as some on here make him out to be, not saying you are one of those. Just don't believe Joerger would tolerate it.