Giles Will Start Soon.

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#31
I actually think Bagley will go ahead and start against Philly and coach may call it a matchup thing or something... but he's the clear starter right now over, actually either Willie or Belly, but I think it will be Belly... but I think Giles will play more minutes than WCS the rest of the year, regardless of starting role.
Wrong! Sorry, but I think your wrong, and believe me, I really, really like Giles, and I think he's going to be a special player. I think he can thrive in the right situations, like last nights game, but not when he has to go out and guard Steven Adams, or Marc Gasol, or Cousins, or Anthony Davis and I could go on and on. He's simply not ready yet, that's if you want to win.

Everyone wanted to hang Willie for supposedly getting killed by Harrell, while at the same time ignore the fact that Giles got literally destroyed by Harrell. Right now Giles isn't strong enough to match up with a lot of the centers in the league, nor some of the stronger PF's for that matter. To some extent neither is Bagley, but Bag's can compensate with his freakish athleticism. Giles is a good athlete, but he's not as athletic at Bagley.

Knowing how Joerger operates, wanting to bring players along slowly, and put them into positive situations, I sincerely doubt he's about to move Giles into the starting lineup. I think he'll continue to pick his spots in order to build confidence. Now give Giles another offseason to get stronger, and then the story will change. Personally, I think both Bagley and Giles are more PF's than they are Centers, and who knows, our center of the future may not yet be on the team.

Speaking of matching up with the larger centers in the league, do you really think that Joerger is about to throw Giles out there to be eaten alive by Embiid? Really? I'll buy you the meal of your choice at the McDonalds of your choice if that happens.
 
#32
Baja, you have been the voice of reason when it comes to WCS. His inconsistent motor, defense and hands drive me nuts. But we'd also probably have 5 less wins, maybe more were he not a part of this team. Now is WARP does not reflect that inflated number, but what it does not take into consideration is that he would have been replaced by two RAW rookies or KK.

I think moving forward we will be better off if we can move him for a piece while not having to over pay to keep him. I see the core being as following next year, unless something drastic happens

PG: Fox
SG: Buddy
SF: TBD
PF: Giles
C: Bagley

6th man: Bogi
7th man: Bjelly

You can flip flop Bagley/Giles C/PF it doesn't really matter, it's just who they are guarding.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#34
Baja, you have been the voice of reason when it comes to WCS. His inconsistent motor, defense and hands drive me nuts. But we'd also probably have 5 less wins, maybe more were he not a part of this team. Now is WARP does not reflect that inflated number, but what it does not take into consideration is that he would have been replaced by two RAW rookies or KK.

I think moving forward we will be better off if we can move him for a piece while not having to over pay to keep him. I see the core being as following next year, unless something drastic happens

PG: Fox
SG: Buddy
SF: TBD
PF: Giles
C: Bagley

6th man: Bogi
7th man: Bjelly

You can flip flop Bagley/Giles C/PF it doesn't really matter, it's just who they are guarding.
Look, Willie is what he is. I've never pretended that he'll ever be a star, but at the same time, people are exaggerating his negatives. They complain about his defense, but he has the best defensive rating on the entire team. If you want to get rid of him for his defense, then perhaps we should get rid of everyone else on the team. I'm not against trading Willie, but we do need to get back or acquire somewhere, a center with legit size to match up against the big centers in the league.

If the Kings think that someone will make an offer in the off season that they won't want to match, then make a trade now. But if they think they can retain Willie for a reasonable price, then do that. Willie brings a lot of pluses to the table that everyone will notice once he's gone, and I won't waste everyone's time going over them again. But the idea that Willie is the problem with this team is nonsense. Yeah, he's not as consistent as I would like, but he has improved in that area.

Would/should Willie be a starting center on a contending team? Good question, and I think it would depend on the team. For instance, the Warriors have had centers start for them that probably wouldn't start for a lot of other teams. In other words if all the team wanted from their starting center was to run the floor, grab some rebounds, and defend, then Willie could start. But if you want him to be KAT, or AD, then no. It really comes down to expectations.

What I don't want to see is Bagley or Giles, or both out on the floor being abused by a center whose taller, stronger, has more league experience, and who out weighs them by 40 plus pounds. Frankly, I'm not sure either Giles or Bagley is a center, but I'am sure both will fill out and get stronger. With Bagley there's probably a fine line he doesn't want to cross where adding weight will start to affect his athleticism.

Here's the thing. At the moment we don't have a pressing need at the center position. We do have a pressing need at the SF position. So I think we would be better served to solve that problem before creating a problem at the center position. I think that if we could acquire a legit SF that can shoot the ball from the three and defend, Bjelica would become less of a necessity for the starting lineup, especially if Bagley continues to improve his jumpshot. I can see a future three man rotation of Giles, Bagley and Willie covering the Center and PF positions.

In my humble opinion, there is zero need to start Giles right now, and to do so could blow up in the Kings face. Yes he looked terrific last night, but you have to consider the opposition. He wasn't going up against anyone of size other than Len, who doesn't strike fear into anyone's hearts. Collins is a good player, but he's no bigger than Giles. There's a way to still get Giles minutes without starting him, and getting him the right minutes is more important than starting.
 
#35
I wouldn't be too excited over the fact that we destroyed Atlanta, that's not a great benchmark. We're still struggling against real opponents...
I think you're misguided here.

First, the KINGS have been struggling too. Secondly, ATL was 10-10 in their last 20 coming into the game last night and had just beaten the Clippers -- a team that has owned the KINGS this season -- on the road.. Thirdly, the Hawks had John Collins in the lineup which wasn't the case when the two teams met earlier in the season. Fourthly, it was the 1st game home after a long road trip. Lastly, it was a blowout.

When you factor in all those things, it was a good win and certainly something to be excited about.
 
#36
To me, I think Giles is too small to play Center full time. The bigger Centers in the NBA would crush him.
Possibly, but don't forget that there's a flip side to that.

In time as Giles develops and learns, he's going to be able to cause all those centers an equal amount of trouble (if not more) with his quickness, speed and array of moves. Not only can they not run with him in transition, they won't be able to keep him in front of them on the block. He's long and can finish with either hand.

It'd be a poor match up both ways.

Thing is, I have more faith in Harry getting stronger and learning how to defend the bigger players better than I do in those players ever become quicker or fast enough to deal with him.

H20 is listed at 240 pounds right now and isn't even 21 yo yet. As he continues to fill out and get stronger, the size/strength advantage isn't going to be near as significant as it seems today.

Let's not forget that Draymond Green often guards larger players and centers at just 6'7 and 230 pounds. While Dray is among the best defenders in the game and H20 may never get near that level, it does go to show that it's possible since he's bigger than Dray now and will be even more so in a few years.
 
#37
Possibly, but don't forget that there's a flip side to that.

In time as Giles develops and learns, he's going to be able to cause all those centers an equal amount of trouble (if not more) with his quickness, speed and array of moves. Not only can they not run with him in transition, they won't be able to keep him in front of them on the block. He's long and can finish with either hand.

It'd be a poor match up both ways.

Thing is, I have more faith in Harry getting stronger and learning how to defend the bigger players better than I do in those players ever become quicker or fast enough to deal with him.

H20 is listed at 240 pounds right now and isn't even 21 yo yet. As he continues to fill out and get stronger, the size/strength advantage isn't going to be near as significant as it seems today.

Let's not forget that Draymond Green often guards larger players and centers at just 6'7 and 230 pounds. While Dray is among the best defenders in the game and H20 may never get near that level, it does go to show that it's possible since he's bigger than Dray now and will be even more so in a few years.
Yes, Giles should fill out some. But his frame seems too narrow to put on too much weight. Especially, with his previous knee surgeries, I'm not sure if putting on a lot of extra weight would be necessarily a good thing.
 
#38
Yes, Giles should fill out some. But his frame seems too narrow to put on too much weight. Especially, with his previous knee surgeries, I'm not sure if putting on a lot of extra weight would be necessarily a good thing.
Agreed, but he's still 240 as is today despite his frame. If he naturally puts on say 10-15 pounds gradually over the next few seasons as he continues fill out and get stronger, he'd be 6'10 and roughly 250 - 255.

Jokić is 3+ years older and currently weights around 250. Only 10 pounds heavier than H20 right now.
Embiid is nearly 4 years older and is 250 pounds too.

I don't think it's going to be a problem. H20 just needs to focus on getting a bit stronger and he'll fill out just fine.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#39
Agreed, but he's still 240 as is today despite his frame. If he naturally puts on say 10-15 pounds gradually over the next few seasons as he continues fill out and get stronger, he'd be 6'10 and roughly 250 - 255.

Jokić is 3+ years older and currently weights around 250. Only 10 pounds heavier than H20 right now.
Embiid is nearly 4 years older and is 250 pounds too.

I don't think it's going to be a problem. H20 just needs to focus on getting a bit stronger and he'll fill out just fine.
If Jokic is 250 pounds, Isaiah Thomas is actually 6'7"
 
#42
Agreed, but he's still 240 as is today despite his frame. If he naturally puts on say 10-15 pounds gradually over the next few seasons as he continues fill out and get stronger, he'd be 6'10 and roughly 250 - 255.

Jokić is 3+ years older and currently weights around 250. Only 10 pounds heavier than H20 right now.
Embiid is nearly 4 years older and is 250 pounds too.

I don't think it's going to be a problem. H20 just needs to focus on getting a bit stronger and he'll fill out just fine.
There's no way Jokic and Embiid only have 10lbs on Giles.

Harry is probably around 230 max, those cats are both pushing 280!

(At least according to my extremely uninformed eye test from watching games on the TV!)
 
#43
These guys were pretty skinny too in their rookie seasons:




And anyway, Giles does not seem like a guy who will have trouble putting on weight to me. He's skinny but not abnormally so for a player his age. And there are the knee issues to worry about of course so he should take it slow for now in the weight room. 20mpg off the bench is a good start for him considering he didn't play at all last season. And long-term, I don't think he needs to get that much bigger anyway. Speed should be one of his advantages-- turning him into a bruiser might help him match up better one on one with certain bigs but it's probably not the best look for this team. Ideally we're going to be dictating the tempo to these other teams in the future and that tempo is going to be very very fast.
 
#44
There's no way Jokic and Embiid only have 10lbs on Giles.

Harry is probably around 230 max, those cats are both pushing 280!

(At least according to my extremely uninformed eye test from watching games on the TV!)
I’m not disputing what you and others have said, but somebody needs to notify the official NBA site and ESPN cause they don’t have them listed as such.
 
#45
I’m usually impatient AF.... That said, Giles is the one case where I’m okay with slow and steady. As long as he’s getting minutes, I’ll be happy. His time will come... let us remember the limited amount of actual ball he’s played over the last 3 years or so. He’ll get there. He will and there’s no doubt in my mind.

Bagley on the other hand? He needs to start yesterday.
I’m okay with Giles not starting because he plays best with Bogdan and Jackson. If Beli is coming off the bench he is a good match with Giles also.
 
#47
There's no way Jokic and Embiid only have 10lbs on Giles.

Harry is probably around 230 max, those cats are both pushing 280!

(At least according to my extremely uninformed eye test from watching games on the TV!)
Jokic has a little bit of a gut, or did at least. For the record I am a huge fan of his.
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#49
20 points in 21 minutes....no questions. Willie needs to sit on the bench and come off the bench if he is willing to take a paycut, but otherwise...farewell to you Willie
I dont know what a paycut means in the NBA anymore.....Stein is worth in todays absurd scale around 11-14/year imo. He's a good player, but not a top player.
 
#50
I don't think he'll start soon, nor should he, since he will be over matched by a lot of the starting centers in the league but that was a really fun to watch tonight. I don't know if it was just a coincidence or what but it seemed like it was a lot harder for the Hawks to score in the paint when he in Bagley were in there together. Hopefully we get a handful of games like this for these two guys to finish the year.
Yes it had to do with the Hawks (their opponents)- as a counter, take the Clippers who punish the Kings frontline players.
 
#51
The easiest fix is to rid WCS for a starting Calibre SF. Insert Bagley into the starting lineup at the 5 and continue with Bjelica at PF
I dont know, I like the depth of having Stein even if a little overpriced as long he's an adult about it - ie willing to come back off the bench like he used to if its recognized that Bagley is a better starter overall. There have been games when Stein breaks out and brings it but they're too random and seldom. If only Shumpert had a better shot, the Kings would have a less glaring deficiency - his FTs are pretty good, would like to see Shumpert attack the rim more instead of settling for shots especially when more open.
 
#52
I think too many fans (and even players) get caught up in who 'starts'. It doesn't matter if H20 starts or not. What's important are the minutes. He played 21 minutes tonight and would have played more had the game been closer. The closer he can get to 30 minutes per night the better. If he gets to that number consistently, it doesn't matter whether it's a start or off the bench. Same as how it doesn't matter for BoBo.
It's customary that starting brings with it an expectation of majority of playing-minutes. Ideally as you get at though it shouldn't matter at all. Right now Joerger is doing a pretty good job of minutes distribution and playing a good 10 players some decent minutes.
 
#54
Right but Giles had limited minutes against the Clips. His only extended minutes were in LA in the blowout where he led the comeback
Playing well in a loss is consolation, but better than not. At the time, he had a good stint if I recall, but only 11 min when I look at the stat line. Giles has since been given a greater role., and rightly so. They should be running high post through him. especially if half-court. They have not figured out the CLippers yet and may not this season....Luckily other teams have better luck against the Clippers, and the Kings will have one more stab at it. Even if the Kings make the playoffs somehow, they wont have to worry about the Clippers.
 
#55
The easiest fix is to rid WCS for a starting Calibre SF. Insert Bagley into the starting lineup at the 5 and continue with Bjelica at PF
This has been my thought, though I wouldn't label it as "getting rid" of Willie.

Here are my thoughts:
  1. WCS is currently the Kings best big
  2. Bagley and Cauley-Stein aren't a good pairing
  3. If Bagley really is the future of the Kings, it will be as a modern five man
Right now the Kings are best off doing what they are doing - starting Willie and bringing Marvin off the bench. That gives them the best chance to win. But if they want to accelerate the future, starting Bagley next to Bjelica is a better option. Then it's a question of what to do with Willie. Giles would eat up a lot of the backup big minutes so how much do you pay Trill to get 12-15 backup center minutes?

We knew at the beginning of the season that this roster wasn't balanced. Too many bigs and no starter quality SF. So while it would likely mean giving up on the playoff chase I'd look to deal Willie and some ending contracts to fill the SF hole and let the young guys really develop.

WCS has his flaws but he is a good player. He's not a traditional defensive anchor who blocks/alters shots and dominates the glass but he is a very switchable defender who also is a decent post defender who is stronger than people realize.

But he's also caught in a numbers game with the Kings. If Bagley is the real deal (and he looks to be) he can't come off the bench forever. And despite the pre-draft comparisons to Bosh, he isnt a consistent shooter who can't spread the floor.

So I think the Kings have to look move Willie, even if it hurts them in the short term.
 
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#57

That was probably the most Webber like thing I've seen Giles do to this point. That would have blown the roof off the place if he didn't get fouled.
"Now that is, uh, sweet stuff..."

Jerry Reynolds ladies and gentlemen! An American original.

This team definitely feels like a team on the rise with multiple players who are going to be in the mix for All-Star games and league awards. I'd be wary of trading anyone for even a star player right now because their chemistry is already so good together. Maybe we just need to find a young SF to develop alongside the rest of them.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#58
"Now that is, uh, sweet stuff..."

Jerry Reynolds ladies and gentlemen! An American original.

This team definitely feels like a team on the rise with multiple players who are going to be in the mix for All-Star games and league awards. I'd be wary of trading anyone for even a star player right now because their chemistry is already so good together. Maybe we just need to find a young SF to develop alongside the rest of them.
I strongly suspect that is exactly what Vlade is thinking. Also? I haven't given up completely on JJ just yet.
 
#59
I strongly suspect that is exactly what Vlade is thinking. Also? I haven't given up completely on JJ just yet.
You may be right! I still don't see much more than fill-in starter potential with him but he has shown this season that he belongs in the league and that's an important step on the ladder for every young player. He might still grow into something more.