Geoff Petrie has fallen asleep at the wheel...
- Thread starter kingsofnba
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Geoff has consumated a lot of his deals deep in the summer. In fact, when you really get down to it I have always felt that a) he pays only cursory attention to the draft. Drafts solidly, but not spectacularly. Is not adverse at all to throwing picks around at teams in deals. Always very laissez-faire. Never makes draft day moves. Never goes after one guy. Just best player available and then goes home and doesn't worry about it. Not a draft guru. And b) furthermore, not a free agent guru either. Part of that may be being in Sacto and not being a horribly attractive market nor having cap space for years, but since the Vlade signing 7 years ago Geoff has really only signed second and third tier free agents. Rarely in pursuit of hot commodities. Some of our best FA pickups have been things that have just fallen into our lap midseason or whatever (Pollard, JJ etc.).
Which leaves the trades. That's where his rep is. And often as not, they come VERY late after all the hullabaloo has died down.
There is every reason to be very concerend right now. Not the least of which is the question of whether Geoff, who of course is reponsible for putting together the current team, is capable of seeing the problems he has created or whether the whole reason the problems exist is because he is NOT capable of seeing the problems (or we wouldn't be here). There is also the question of the Maloofs meddling. And of what the value of our pieces is. And the fact that if you take everything that has come out of the Kings propaganda machine as gospel, we ARE in a lot of trouble. You kind of have to hope they are full of it, and know it.
But the lack of moves to this point by Geoff is very much in keeping with his past patterns (which of course may or may not be a good thing), so of all the many things to worry about, its not at the top of the list. Even if I was anticipating Geoff having a brilliant summer, I would have expected a slow start.
Which leaves the trades. That's where his rep is. And often as not, they come VERY late after all the hullabaloo has died down.
There is every reason to be very concerend right now. Not the least of which is the question of whether Geoff, who of course is reponsible for putting together the current team, is capable of seeing the problems he has created or whether the whole reason the problems exist is because he is NOT capable of seeing the problems (or we wouldn't be here). There is also the question of the Maloofs meddling. And of what the value of our pieces is. And the fact that if you take everything that has come out of the Kings propaganda machine as gospel, we ARE in a lot of trouble. You kind of have to hope they are full of it, and know it.
But the lack of moves to this point by Geoff is very much in keeping with his past patterns (which of course may or may not be a good thing), so of all the many things to worry about, its not at the top of the list. Even if I was anticipating Geoff having a brilliant summer, I would have expected a slow start.
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thesanityannex
Guest
VF21 said:
Bravo. I wish more people would realize this. Petrie is a trade genius, he probably didn't see anything he liked in the FA market.
kingsofnba
G-League
i think petries major flaw as GM is that he looks for players for offense ability first... he has built great regular season teams, but they have fizzeled EVERY year in the playoffs... now you look at the GM in detroit and San Antonio, they have built their teams with the defensive mentality... and they have won 3 of the last 3 championships....
as rick adelman says himself, he can only coach to the strengths of his players and his players strength are offense... adelman can't make peja into ron artest or brad miller into ben wallace....
now if petrie is a genuis, i want to see him wake up and smell the roses, that he will NEVER win a championship with a NO DEFENSE team... until he realizes that championships are won by DEFENSE and not OFFENSE, and start to acquire players not for their offensive ability, but for their defensive ability, then i still have my reservations....
now if he can trade for some players that can give the kings a defensive mindset and identity, then i will give him back his genuis moniker... not since he picked up doug christie and bobby jackson has petrie concentrated on defense in his trades... i think its about time to take the focus off of offense and concentrate on defense in the offseason...
as rick adelman says himself, he can only coach to the strengths of his players and his players strength are offense... adelman can't make peja into ron artest or brad miller into ben wallace....
now if petrie is a genuis, i want to see him wake up and smell the roses, that he will NEVER win a championship with a NO DEFENSE team... until he realizes that championships are won by DEFENSE and not OFFENSE, and start to acquire players not for their offensive ability, but for their defensive ability, then i still have my reservations....
now if he can trade for some players that can give the kings a defensive mindset and identity, then i will give him back his genuis moniker... not since he picked up doug christie and bobby jackson has petrie concentrated on defense in his trades... i think its about time to take the focus off of offense and concentrate on defense in the offseason...
KP
Starter
Brick is right, Petrie does tend to make late moves when it's least expected. But I think everyone is kinda of missing the point here, when we moved Webb we were still an above .600 team right in the thick of the homecourt playoff battle, one could even argue we were a player or 2 away from really being able to compete with the top teams in the West. Some of you seem to think that's still what we are... but I think you are going to have a rude awakening next year(just like the playoffs this year) if the roster stays pretty much as it is. A lot of teams in the 6-10 seed range have gotten better in the West already this offseason, and we need to add some talent and experience or we could miss the playoffs alltogether. Petrie supposedly moved Webber to add all this flexibilty to our contract situation... so where is it? If another year goes by, Webbers contract will start to look more and more attractive to teams that will be looking for some cap relief when it expires. Not to mention a player that will at the very least generate interest and put fans in the seats(even the fans that hate Chris love to watch and root for him to fail) People are acting like losing Cat for nothing was a planned thing after the fact, it wasn't. I'm not saying it's the end of the world we lost Mobley but it shows management miscalculated... what if they overestimated their ability to be able to move Skinner, Thomas, or Corliss? What will happen if we aquire nobody for the 4 or the 2 this summer?? Trust me it won't be pretty. Geoff still has a lot of time but if he does nothing it will be because he screwed up last year with his trades(aquired the wrong peices), not because he planned it.Bricklayer said:
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T[MaC]
G-League
I think what people are needing to understand here is that one free agent signing or trade is not going to propel us back to the top again. It just doesn't matter what Petrie can do anymore; we will all have to accept the fact that we will be ...bad... for a couple of years. Our time came a few years ago; now we'll have to wait for that time again.
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thesanityannex
Guest
kingsofnba said:
Martin and Garcia, although not traded for, have defense as a focus in both of their games. Both combined may not make a Doug Christie, but they have the ability to follow in his footsteps. Bobby, if healthy, also has a defensive presence. I don't worry about Bibby as much, he can only get so much better on defense, along with Peja. The one who worries me most is Brad Miller. He is an offensive threat of course, but why can't the guy shut down the lane, or at least play some decent help defense. People just blow by him and it is unexcusable. Sack up Miller.
KP
Starter
Yeah that really bothers me to^. Miller has shown toughness with some wicked picks, and routinely runs back as hard as he can on D and shows desire, but his rotations into the lane to help are just awful. Since Brad is going to play a majority of the minutes at the 5, we need an athletic big at the 4 who can block/disrupt some shots or we are going to see more of the same next year.thesanityannex said:
Just for the heck of it, Let me throw out what keeps getting repeated. Why isn't petrie on the phone with the GM from Indiana trying to work a deal for artest. I admit the guys has had problems in the past but maybe a change in scenery will be good for him. Do we forget the guy was the defensive player of the year a couple of years back?
bigbadred00
Starter
KP said:
I don't know if you've checked out our depth chart but our backup center for most of year when Brad was healthy wasn't exactly the cream of the crop. We couldn't afford to lose Brad for much of games to ticky-tack fouls. We needed him for extended minutes. Since Brad lacks athletic ability, his main defensive ability comes from use of fouls, something our team due to lack of depth at center, doesn't have the ability to give up on a nightly basis. No offence, but Ostertag isn't exactly the greatest backup center. When Skinner was healthy, he was a very good backup / starter center, but for most of the season we didn't have such a luxury.
Please list all of the seemingless available 4s that fit your qualification. Then restrict it to players we can possibly get or afford. The list is going to be very small. Those players that fit your bill just don't exist at a cheap price. The best are Duncan and KG, with Brand a close 3rd, Chandler is a cheaper version but due to his restriction not really available.
kingsofnba said:
Yes, Petrie does tend to look for offensive ability first. But to say Petrie has built teams that are great for the regular season but that "fizzle" in the playoffs is completely off-base.
At the risk of repeating myself AND many others for about the thousandth time, it wasn't a lack of defense that killed our chances in 2002. It was a lack of ability to perform the most basic basketball skill at the most critical times - the free throw.
In 2003, we were arguably even BETTER than in 2002, thanks to Petrie. It wasn't "fizzle" that year, either. Do you not remember Chris Webber crumbling to the floor and remaining there, writhing in pain and striking the court in anguish because he KNEW he was not going to be able to play in the near future?
It wasn't Petrie's fault in 2004, either. If anything, it was bringing Webber back and destroying the chemistry the existing team had developed. I don't think Adelman and Co. could have done anything differently because it was obvious we were going to need Webber in the playoffs, but it was - in hindsight - an experiment that didn't pay off because the team cohesiveness was destroyed.
As far as 2005 goes, it wasn't "fizzle" then either. It was the departure of Vlade to LA, the trades of Doug and Webber, and the lack of time for the new team to do anything but fail.
So, yes - there is a need to address the defensive gaps that now exist in the team. Saying they've always existed and been the reason for the Kings' departure in the playoffs is simply incorrect.
"It wasn't Petrie's fault in 2004, either. If anything, it was bringing Webber back and destroying the chemistry the existing team had developed. I don't think Adelman and Co. could have done anything differently because it was obvious we were going to need Webber in the playoffs, but it was - in hindsight - an experiment that didn't pay off because the team cohesiveness was destroyed."
Surprised I don't see this more often.
Exactly. Also, I think Webber should of came off the bench for most of the run when he returned. It would of been fine.
Getting Artest for Peja would be an awesome deal. I think Ron will be more mature from now on, he's convinced me over the past month and a half.
This would be a sweet line-up:
Bibby
Mo Evans
Artest
Reggie Evans
Brad Miller
While this is most likely a dream, I'd love to see Petrie pull of a trade involving 2 or 3 of Thomas/Corliss/Jackson/Skinner for Artest/1 or 2 others.
Surprised I don't see this more often.
Exactly. Also, I think Webber should of came off the bench for most of the run when he returned. It would of been fine.
Getting Artest for Peja would be an awesome deal. I think Ron will be more mature from now on, he's convinced me over the past month and a half.
This would be a sweet line-up:
Bibby
Mo Evans
Artest
Reggie Evans
Brad Miller
While this is most likely a dream, I'd love to see Petrie pull of a trade involving 2 or 3 of Thomas/Corliss/Jackson/Skinner for Artest/1 or 2 others.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
uopmatt said:
Never heard that one before...you're new here.
Suffice it to say that we have had entire threads dedicated to that one trade idea.
Kings113 said:
Don't get me wrong. I respect everything Chris Webber did for our franchise. I respect his heart, his competitiveness, his desire to win...
Having said that, I look back and I see that the team WAs in disarray after his return. I don't think it SHOULD have happened, but it did - and I actually have enough blame to pass onto players not named Webber for that happening.
It's old news, however. It doesn't make any difference. The attempt to integrate Webber back into the fold in time to take us deep into the playoffs failed. The ship sailed...and then sank.
We argued this for a very long time on this board and a lot of people got very upset about it. It's in the past now...I won't be arguing about it any more because it's no longer relevant, at least to me.
Hindsight is always 20-20. Sometimes you make the right decisions, sometimes you don't. I don't blame Adelman and Co. for making the decisions they made. It was their job to assess all the variables and make the call they thought would be best. That's about all you can ask of anyone.
bigbadred00
Starter
VF21 said:
The loss of Bobby Jackson also didn't help to quicken the burden of bringing Webber into the mix. Our team for years has played much better without Bibby, Peja or Webber than without Bobby. Without Bobby we miss a defensive PG as well as the bench spark. Without Webber or Bobby we would have gotten pummelled even harder to end the season. It's not the like Kings in the playoffs that year didn't put up a good fight without Bobby in the lineup, they did. We just didn't have enough to last Minne on the road for game 7.
To blame that our team failed much like Cleveland last year after starting out leading the division and then failing to make the playoffs isn't very true. We played really good playoff ball that year but it wasn't enough, we didnt' have enough.
KP
Starter
What do you suggest? I think we should have gotten better deal for Webb, and not just moved him for the sake of moving him, now we are stuck... I agree with you our options are limited, but our 4 has to have speed and some length, offense is not important. As for the money issue, the guys we got were supposed to add "Flexibilty" so we could move them for someone like we are talking about, Thomas doesn't exactly have a small contract either does Corliss, thats where the money has to come from, thru a trade. Too bad no one wants them huh?bigbadred00 said:
bigbadred00
Starter
Knowing or teams owner's, this year we don't have many options. Players I would have liked to have gotten have either gone at way above there price or haven't moved at all. This year it's going to be tough to do any moves. The perfect guy left is Chandler but I don't know what we could offer to get the guy. I'd offer a bunch of our quality players for Brand in a nano-second, but I can't see the Clippers making any trade with the guy. As I've said before, our options are very limited right now, defensive 4/5 players are at a extreme premium in the league and are hard to come by.
captain bill
All-Star
I wouldn't mind parting with Peja and Thomas to aquire Brand. Normally I wouldn't even mention this because no sane team would accept that, but this is the Clippers we're talking about. Maybe Petrie can swindle Brand away from them.
i think its fair to say that some fans are deluding themselves. its just not possible to turn this team into a contender overnight, nor fair to expect petrie and company to do that. it's possible that we have been spoiled by the success of the past few seasons and expect a quickfix, and i, like others in this thread often find myself reflecting on the glory days - even my MSN messenger profile is a photo of webber and peja hugging!
we are now in the same boat as the supporters of other teams, where we have to be supportive and patient in the rebuilding. yes, we have a nice core. yes, we have problems, yes we will struggle to be competitive in the western conference - but the success of sporting franchises more often than not works in cycles and its a sad realisation for some fans to make that we are no longer perennial contenders, but current rebuilders.
it surely won't take 1 player to change it, nor 1 year. it may have to be a few players, and a few years. but i think we should be cautiously optimistic rather than nostalgic and demanding.
we are now in the same boat as the supporters of other teams, where we have to be supportive and patient in the rebuilding. yes, we have a nice core. yes, we have problems, yes we will struggle to be competitive in the western conference - but the success of sporting franchises more often than not works in cycles and its a sad realisation for some fans to make that we are no longer perennial contenders, but current rebuilders.
it surely won't take 1 player to change it, nor 1 year. it may have to be a few players, and a few years. but i think we should be cautiously optimistic rather than nostalgic and demanding.
tyrant
Starter
grun said:
build success overnight? how bout build it over the next 4 months. our core consists of 3 guys. one is a clutch shooter and a great point gaurd, the other is a soft wing man that can only shoot when he feels like it, and the other is a 7ft big man that gets knocked to the floor every other play. i've never seen a team with 3 members in a core with the exception of the spurs. manu, tony and tim; but they have TIM, arguably the best in the business. if we can't get a big name and get that great 2 man punch ala webber/bibby or kobe/shaq or KG/ cassell then we need to change our identity. the pistons don't have a big threat, but they have a very strong identity.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
grun said:
This is true. But there are two additional factors that really have to be confronted byt he franchsie:
1) the "core" is not young. Not old. But not young. If you're not planning on contending over the next couple of years then you just HAVE to remove the untouchable tag from these guys. If its going to take you 3-5 years to get back into contention, this core will either be too old to contribute, or will be getting close enough to that point that their decline will cut off our resurgence as soon as we get started. In 5 years Brad is 34, Peja 33, Mike 32.
2) the failure of initiative on the arena is now a 1000lb gorilla on the franchise's and city's back. If the team sinks back, if support wavers at all, Sacramento could literally lose the only major legague franchise it has ever had. Maybe not a big deal to people without Sacto ties, but a gigantic shift for the franchise, and a disaster for Sacramento. It may be why the team turns out to be too cowardly to rebuild ( 1) to try to keep enough support in Sacto to build the arena; 2) to try to maximize the deal from another city excited to get a winner, or at least not a loser. It may also be that very shortsightedness which ends up killing interest and causing the team to leave.
BibityBobtyBoom
Bench
Since when did we become Hawk fans? And by this i mean closing up shop before the season even begins. We seen how good the kings did last year with this group and mobley. I have faith in the kings that we will not take the eight spot, watch, i predict the kings will return to the top this year.
Hawk fans? Not hardly.
We're not closing up shop. It's TDOS. This is what goes on every year. It's NORMAL to be apprehensive in the off-season and it's especially expected this year, after everything that's gone on with our team the past year.
How good did this group do last year? How much was attributable to the players that were traded and how much was earned by the group that remained after Feb. 23?
Sorry, Bibity...but I cannot possibly agree with your prediction that this group will return to the top.
We're not closing up shop. It's TDOS. This is what goes on every year. It's NORMAL to be apprehensive in the off-season and it's especially expected this year, after everything that's gone on with our team the past year.
How good did this group do last year? How much was attributable to the players that were traded and how much was earned by the group that remained after Feb. 23?
Sorry, Bibity...but I cannot possibly agree with your prediction that this group will return to the top.
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