Wouldn't Joerger know this better than anyone in the Kings organization whether Zbo was/is worth taking on. There are lots of different aspects that the vets can teach and knowledge that they can share.
Free Agency Open Thread (NBA and Kings!)
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Look at the 3 games of SL so far. We have Vince Carter in the middle of our bench actively engaged and committed to these young guys success.....in a SL game.....and he barely knows them. Joerger says he's a legend for these guys and they hang on his every word.....and he's there for these guys already and it's on display for us to see. Our SL team was overhyped going in and they haven't particularly played well and are mentally struggling because they are not living up to expectations. Carter and Zbo and I've seen Hill there in the mix as well are right there for these guys.
It's huge and already paying dividends. I love these 3 signings already.
It's huge and already paying dividends. I love these 3 signings already.
KingsSelecao
Bench
I wouldn't say it's either huge or paying dividends. Based on 3 Summer League games. I am optimistic, but not interested in being a fanboy. Let's see how these young players respond or not after a full season.
Semi
Bench
There's a reason why Carroll has been on 7 teams now before his 9th season has begun. Only the Nets are stupid enough to have traded for him. Toronto fans have been BEGGING anyone to take him off their hands and you're wondering why Vlade didn't get him?
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twslam07
All-Star
Carter < Caroll + 1st round pick + 2nd round pick. Nuff said.
Telemachus
Starter
If I'm not mistaken, Carter made reference to the fact that the kids needed to be ready in practice because both ZBo and himself always went hard in practice. His point was that you want the practices to be so tough that the actual games seem easy by comparison.
Nah....typical overvalue of a 23-25th pick in that deal.
Carroll deal is negative value overall especially the year after
Carter signing is a positive value deal with lasting implications
twslam07
All-Star
A 1st and 2nd round pick can have lasting implications as well. We just drafted Labissiere in that position last year. Let's not pretend these picks don't have value.
Telemachus
Starter
They have value. They aren't worth $30 million.
twslam07
All-Star
Why not?
kingjatt
Starter
I dont really get how folks are saying its a foregone conclusion that ZBO and Vince can still play, both guys are walking the line in terms of being washed up.
Anyways arguing about this sort of stuff has shown to be useless as we suck year after year while showing up with completely new rosters in every year of Vlades tenure, the results sort of show that Vlade hasnt exactly chosen the best free agents to round out the roster in years past.
Anyways arguing about this sort of stuff has shown to be useless as we suck year after year while showing up with completely new rosters in every year of Vlades tenure, the results sort of show that Vlade hasnt exactly chosen the best free agents to round out the roster in years past.
We won't get a franchise player there at pick 25. We have 10 guys on rookie deals and next year we will have 11 with the high lotto pick. You want to add the 12th guy? Extremely puzzling. At that point, more is not better.
Carroll to Nets makes sense as they are in process of acquiring picks
Carroll to Kings to get pick makes zero sense as we are in the process of now developing immediately. Surround the guys in place with quality.
kingjatt
Starter
The nets just paid 60 million (Mozgovs contract) for Russell and 30 Mil for another first, thats how you use cap space if you have no shot at a title. You rent it out to aqquire assets to be used (draft picks) or traded for guys you want(PG and Butler).
As long as you suck your just throwing darts until you get a complete young core that sticks the more darts the better. ZBO, VC and G Hill are win now type signings and a terrible use of cap space for a team that has no shot at a title or deep playoff run.
I thought they did these signings because no one else was dangling a first rounder for cap space but it appears as Vlade is looking to produce wins THIS year.
twslam07
All-Star
This is where your narrow minded approach fails you.
You're assuming that I want nothing but youth on the team. Wrong! I have stated NUMEROUS times that it is very important to have veteran players who can mentor the young guys. We agree on that! Now let's move on...
What I don't agree with is that we should be passing up assets because we have too many young assets on the team. This is lunacy! This is the opinion of those who don't understand trades and consolidation. We could take on 2-3 more 2018 1st rounders and still end up with 7-8 young guys on our 2018-19 roster due to trades. Why does wanting to acquire more young assets = wanting the roster to only be young players?
It's ridiculous to think that young talent we have is all we need to be competitive. We need to continue to collect assets to make sure we're in a good position to not only produce 1 star, but produce multiple stars. A team can position themselves in this way without sacrificing the valuable veteran mentors. They are not mutually exclusive.
kingjatt
Starter
What exactly do we have in place? I mean in terms of proven NBA talent? We dont know, for all intents and purposes we are pretty much at the same place the Nets are at right now. One great PG prospect, another decent prospect and a bunch of flat out question marks.
Until we have a young core established we must value any and all draft picks.
It would be dangerous to punt on the idea that we are now in a position to not value draft picks.
You don't understand. Are you going to come up with one of your 3 team, 12 player fantasy mega deals to consolidate young guys into vets? Fantasy. Kings are dealing in reality and in the process of developing.
There's a reason why Carroll has been on 7 teams now before his 9th season has begun. Only the Nets are stupid enough to have traded for him. Toronto fans have been BEGGING anyone to take him off their hands and you're wondering why Vlade didn't get him?
And the point of getting Carrol would have been that Kings could've got 1st and 2nd round draft pick. Not the impact Carrol would make on the court.
I dont even care that much how good Carrol would've been for us but since you are talking about his career as a whole then you should admit that he earned that big contract Hawks gave him. He is not the same player neccesary but him being on different teams is a meaningles point since he blossomed in atlanta.
It has been said here countless times so how hard is it to understand that for Kings who have assets as players in their rookie deals, the point of assets like raptors 1st and 2nd is to combine them to another asset(s) to get one better asset.
I think you are the one not understanding the reality. You dont seem to have any idea about how Nba works. Collecting assets whenever possible is allways a great idea. Assets collectrd means that you have ways to improve your team even after you are capped out or so good that draft only gets you role players max. And there are allways going to be opportunities to combine multiple assets for one good assets or just multiple different assets. One easy example is moving up in the draft, Tor 22nd, one young guy or tor 2nd-->late lottery or mid 1st, or Kings own pick+tor 1st, one young guy-->few seeds up if needed to get that premium talent. Or if we draft a top talent at our pick and consider us ready to win now, then for example getting Portland to dump us Mo Harkless gets easier when you have possibility to get their 1st and Mo for tor 1st ect. There are just countless opportunities where those kinds of assets really help a competent franchise and I'm not going to try to come up with any more examples for you.
You have to think whats the opportunity cost for us to make a deal like that. For the first year of his contract the opportunity cost is probably absolutely zero since we have enough money to hire any vet to their last deals to mentor and we are not gonna be in a playoff hunt anyway. For the second year the opportunity cost is the use of that 15 million of cap space, that has value but thats why I would've taken a deal like that rather than signing Zbo. We would've retained our flexibility, gained assets and had added enough vet leadership with VC and Hill this year.
Suicide King
Starter
Why is it assumed that because the front office didn't acquire these specific picks that they aren't keeping an eye out for these kind of deals?
Why is it assumed that fans who weren't blown away by this deal with the Raptors, that they just aren't interested in obtaining more assets?
Why is it assumed that fans who weren't blown away by this deal with the Raptors, that they just aren't interested in obtaining more assets?
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
http://uproxx.com/dimemag/demarre-carroll-toronto-raptors-dont-trust-each-other/
Way to speak your mind immediately after a trade, we know who he is referencing here. It's no secret. Do we condone this type of behavior in our new approach to attaining players with good character? He isn't wrong by saying these things but man, some things are just meant to stay behind closed doors.
Way to speak your mind immediately after a trade, we know who he is referencing here. It's no secret. Do we condone this type of behavior in our new approach to attaining players with good character? He isn't wrong by saying these things but man, some things are just meant to stay behind closed doors.
CelticsFan
Bench
This is an extreme example but Celtics helped clear cap space for Cleveland by renting out their cap room. Three team deal Celtics ended up with Zeller from Cavs, Marcus Thornton from the Nets and a Cleveland first round pick. The Celtics sent a conditional second round pick. A year later Celtics flipped the assets they acquired (Thorton, Cavs 1st and a washed up Tayshaun Prince) for IT.
The point is IMO renting out cap space is more valuable then adding vets that are washed up. I get it they are good for the locker room but so wasn't Tolliver and nobody was upset when he left.
Because they talk about those assets like they are nearly worthless or try to explain how Carrol isnt a good player. Or try to explain why using all our cap space on vets in a year that we will suck anyway is a better idea. Obviously Carroll isnt worth his contract if a team is willing to give up 1st and 2nd rounder for him. But diminishing the value of those draft picks implicates that they dont understand the real value of renting cap space and with what price is team willing dump their unwanted salary. That Carrol deal was a pretty good return for the nets and if the Kings would expect a lot better return then they clearly arent realistically expecting any deals like that.
twslam07
All-Star
Little substance to this post. Perhaps it is you that do not understand.
Fantasy is thinking that consolidation trades don't happen. Hell how did we get Papagiannis, Labissiere, & Bogdanovic? Phoenix consolidated and landed the 8th pick. It still remains to be seen who won the trade but it's a realistic example of how a team with a plethora of assets can make a move to go after a guy they think is special. Forgive me for wanting the Kings to have that luxury...
twslam07
All-Star
I'm not making that assumption. I'm simply stating my case that those are the types of deals the Kings should be making.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Because you need mentors that can actually be productive. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Competing for spots needs to be driven internally and not he handed our based on age or potential. That is NOT good for player development despite popular belief.
Prize is a late 1st round pick for $30 million, a taken up roster spot and lack of cap flexibility next off-season. A hell of a hefty price to pay. Late first round picks can be purchased for maximum of $3 million from the teams wanting to avoid tax. It has happended a few times in the past. There is absolutely no need to pay $30 million over two years for a player that won't play much for a late first round pick.
Vlade has been very active in gaining assets over the past couple drafts/years, even tanking at the end of last year to ensure we had the maximum number of draft picks and then trading down to get even more picks. Our roster is full, and we have a few select vets to provide guidance and mentorship.
Why are you so insistant that this team doesn't know what it is doing with regards to this one particular possible trade? Do you know that we did not call them or field calls but just didn't think the trade was worthwhile? Maybe what we offered wasn't what they were looking for in a player? I don't know how you can look at what was done in such a short period of time and then say that this team is "asleep at the wheel."
Maybe Coach specifically requested Vince and Zach given his familiarity with them and first-hand knowledge of how they can contribute in the next year or two and interact with younger players. Maybe the other options didn't look so favorable when viewed in this light? Draft picks are not the end-all be-all you make them out to be.
twslam07
All-Star
When will I stop getting lumped into the group that thinks we don't need veteran mentors. I don't think that! Temple, Carter, Koufos, and Randolph are all fine in that role. You need a few of those players to bring the young guys along.
If Carroll plays better than or young guys, fine. Play him. Make the young guys earn it. I don't want any handouts to our young guys. I think you're arguing a point I agree with it.
Less cap space next year (notice how I didn't say no cap space) is a small price to pay for a team who really shouldn't be signing older veterans to help catapult them to a treadmill of mediocrity. It's one of the reasons you see these trades happen so much. Cap space is not nearly as valuable to us as it is to other teams. Besides, the most crucial offseason is in 2019 and Carroll will be off th books by then (along with Randolph, Hill, Temple, and Koufos). That's when we should consider spending big. When we have a boat load of cap space and it being the year before having to pay our sophomores.
twslam07
All-Star
Just because the "roster is full" it doesn't mean you stop collecting assets.
Where did I claim Vlade doesn't know what he's doing? Where did I insinuate that Vlade wasn't holding talks with the Raptors? You're accusing me of something I never suggested. It's possible he did and it's possible he didn't. You and I will never know. All I'm doing is commenting on this particular trade saying that I would have done it as the Kings GM. I'm not posting on here bashing our FO and calling for Vlade's head. I'm simply expressing my opinion. And my opinion is that I would have made th deal if I had the opportunity.
I never said draft picks are the end all be all. Culture, veteran mentors, etc. play a big role as well, but unlike many here, they seem to want to sacrifice th collection of assets for the sake of culture/veteran mentorship while I want all three (collecting asssets, culture, veteran mentor ship).
Again, they are not mutually exclusive.
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