I'm just not sure where you put them. Right now we have 10 youths and 5 vets. Teams need actual role players too. And they need an environment to become stars. I'm not saying stand pat... but you do realize that Carroll deal came with a LATE first round pick, right? You give a ton of flexibility for that?
Free Agency Open Thread (NBA and Kings!)
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I'm just not sure where you put them. Right now we have 10 youths and 5 vets. Teams need actual role players too. And they need an environment to become stars. I'm not saying stand pat... but you do realize that Carroll deal came with a LATE first round pick, right? You give a ton of flexibility for that?
And I'm not saying you don't need vets, but the Carroll deal is exactly the type of deals we should be making.
The 2019 offseason is the most important offseason for us because it is a great opportunity to sign 1 or 2 good FAs before we have to give out big paydays to our sophomores. Then the next year, we can go over the cap to resign our own guys. Carroll's contract expires that offseason allowing us to still have a boat load of cap space when we'll need it most.
Secondly, I don't care if it's going to be a late first round pick. It's an asset, and you can use your assets to consolidate into a more premium asset. What if we ended up getting the #3 pick next year and we wanted to trade up to #1. #3, late 1st, & Cauley-Stein might be a deal that can get it done.
That's just 1 example of how to use multiple assets to arrive at a higher quality asset.
The 2019 offseason is the most important offseason for us because it is a great opportunity to sign 1 or 2 good FAs before we have to give out big paydays to our sophomores. Then the next year, we can go over the cap to resign our own guys. Carroll's contract expires that offseason allowing us to still have a boat load of cap space when we'll need it most.
Secondly, I don't care if it's going to be a late first round pick. It's an asset, and you can use your assets to consolidate into a more premium asset. What if we ended up getting the #3 pick next year and we wanted to trade up to #1. #3, late 1st, & Cauley-Stein might be a deal that can get it done.
That's just 1 example of how to use multiple assets to arrive at a higher quality asset.
What I'm missing is why we pay Carroll in the first place. He's not a significant upgrade over what we can throw out there at the three position (even Temple at times). And he won't be part of the future so even though he's a good teammate, it'll feel like a rental.
30M for the asset of a late first round pick, I guess we just disagree.
I'd much rather see what Bogs can do at the three and maintain flexibility for taking on a contract during an in-season trade. And yes I am a fan of the Carter and especially Zbo signings.
30M for the asset of a late first round pick, I guess we just disagree.
I'd much rather see what Bogs can do at the three and maintain flexibility for taking on a contract during an in-season trade. And yes I am a fan of the Carter and especially Zbo signings.
A pick in the 25 range is not a prize for this team next year. It's a prize for the Nets in their particular situation because of their lack of picks previously. $30 for that pick? Bad move by us that was avoided. Instead we went with the smart move and landed 3 vets who will have a major impact on our young guys. Mind boggling that some people don't see that.
Just an insane price to sit someone on the bench for a late first round pick. 30M of dead weight and a chemistry liability. You sit him like that and he mentally checks out. Dude doesn't want to wast 2 years of his career atrophying on a bench. He'd be unhappy.
We're in a position now where we should only have players here who want to be part of what we're doing.
I just don't see that at all as being worth a late first rounder to us at this point. 10 youngins. Cap space, some good vets. Some flexibility.
We're in a position now where we should only have players here who want to be part of what we're doing.
I just don't see that at all as being worth a late first rounder to us at this point. 10 youngins. Cap space, some good vets. Some flexibility.
Joerger came out in last nights interview and said that you want your mentors/vets to be relevant to the young guys and that they have to be able to play as well. Zbo and Carter. One is getting his number retired by a franchise ASAP, the other is a first ballot HOFer.....and they both can play still.
Zbo, Carter, Carroll: one of these is not like the other
Zbo, Carter, Carroll: one of these is not like the other
Now I wouldn't go that far to claim that people don't see it. I think some of us just tend to think we have gone a step too far and are ignoring other options in our attempt to follow an ideal of how a team should play, how players should act and how teams should be led.
When all the team talks about in the offseason is culture, leadership and playing the right way it makes me suspicious.
Those things are important, but like Joerger said - what wins in this league is talent after all.
And therefore it's not unreasonable to think, that the Kings would have been better off, when they used their capspace to aquire more assets. In the end small things do make an impact. A mid or late first round pick could be used in a trade, that gets a good player in return. The difference between a #2 and #5 pick in the draft could mean drafting a rotation player instead of a superstar. Those things matter just like having leadership and a good working environment.
When all the team talks about in the offseason is culture, leadership and playing the right way it makes me suspicious.
Those things are important, but like Joerger said - what wins in this league is talent after all.
And therefore it's not unreasonable to think, that the Kings would have been better off, when they used their capspace to aquire more assets. In the end small things do make an impact. A mid or late first round pick could be used in a trade, that gets a good player in return. The difference between a #2 and #5 pick in the draft could mean drafting a rotation player instead of a superstar. Those things matter just like having leadership and a good working environment.
A lot of this board live in a fantasy world and are extremely naive when it comes to the dealings of the NBA. The NBA is a business and like all businesses, there are "relationships" some of which are better and stronger than others. Who is to say that Vlade didn't try to get more assests or get involved in some of these trades? There are GMs out there who won't work with everyone and look to deal with those they know best. Look at the Paul George trade. Took a worse deal to move him West.
This is the real world, where knowing someone still accounts for something. It isn't black and white and we cannot assume that because one team got a favorable return in a trade that it should have been us so that we can collect more assets. And for the love of God, have any of you went to school and not had teachers? Where did you learn stuff from? Who guided you? Teachers. That's what the vets are for. To teach those that don't know. The argument for no vets in order to get more kids is asinine.
Trusting the GM or not trusting the GM doesn't have anything to do with actual results. We don't know the results so how can anyone judge or claim they don't trust Vlade? Why, because the draft and free agent signings didnt go the way someone thought jt should? Or because of the Cousins trade? I point to the trades of stars this off-season and how those deals look mighty similar or even worse than our Cousins trade.
This is the real world, where knowing someone still accounts for something. It isn't black and white and we cannot assume that because one team got a favorable return in a trade that it should have been us so that we can collect more assets. And for the love of God, have any of you went to school and not had teachers? Where did you learn stuff from? Who guided you? Teachers. That's what the vets are for. To teach those that don't know. The argument for no vets in order to get more kids is asinine.
Trusting the GM or not trusting the GM doesn't have anything to do with actual results. We don't know the results so how can anyone judge or claim they don't trust Vlade? Why, because the draft and free agent signings didnt go the way someone thought jt should? Or because of the Cousins trade? I point to the trades of stars this off-season and how those deals look mighty similar or even worse than our Cousins trade.
This is once again a knock out argument, that pretty much makes every fan forum for every sport obsolete. What are we supposed to talk about, if we can't judge the guys in charge? Of course this is above our head as fans, but so are judgements of actual NBA players by fans and if that happens you rarely hear this argument.
And because you pretty much gave me a foward pass for this question, don't be mad, when I ask this: "If Vlade doesn't have relationships and doesn't have what it takes to get deals other GM's are able to get done, isn't that a valid criticism of Vlade?"
Who argued for no vets? Isn't that an emotional exxageration, because the ongoing discussion is difficult to stomach? And btw. if the vets are the teachers in your school metaphor, what's the role of the coaching staff?
If we don't know the results, how can so many people claim they trust Vlade? And where does this question lead us? Or did I miss your point in this case?
And because you pretty much gave me a foward pass for this question, don't be mad, when I ask this: "If Vlade doesn't have relationships and doesn't have what it takes to get deals other GM's are able to get done, isn't that a valid criticism of Vlade?"
Who argued for no vets? Isn't that an emotional exxageration, because the ongoing discussion is difficult to stomach? And btw. if the vets are the teachers in your school metaphor, what's the role of the coaching staff?
If we don't know the results, how can so many people claim they trust Vlade? And where does this question lead us? Or did I miss your point in this case?
With all this talk about the vets teaching the young guys does that mean Zbo is going to teach all the young guys bad practice habits? When Zbo was being interviewed during the game they were laughing with him about being a terrible practice player but he would at least show up on game day. I understood it as Zbo doesn't go hard in practice.
Yeah but we have no team culture. Without these rad vets, our culture would be shaky. Coaches cannot dictate culture as they need to stay a level above. It's gotta be the guys in the locker room. True for all team sports at all levels. Let's not forget George Hill here. This guy is like the top NBA citizen of all time. Pop's fave player to coach.
We have an incredible line up of vets that can still play and who are being given a chance to build a culture and pass on their knowledge which is going to bring them great personal satisfaction. I bet the old guys are just as excited as the young guys for this situation.
We have an incredible line up of vets that can still play and who are being given a chance to build a culture and pass on their knowledge which is going to bring them great personal satisfaction. I bet the old guys are just as excited as the young guys for this situation.
I feel like you are just arguing because you don't want to concede the point.
We don't need that "asset" for 30M of liability and Carroll is not as effective as Zbo. Carter is a legend and you grab that. George Hill is an heck of a talent.
You're still in tank mode mentality. You can't build a winning culture with tank mode moves.
We don't need that "asset" for 30M of liability and Carroll is not as effective as Zbo. Carter is a legend and you grab that. George Hill is an heck of a talent.
You're still in tank mode mentality. You can't build a winning culture with tank mode moves.
Maybe we should try to define what "winning culture" actually means. Because we put this term out a lot and it's difficult to discuss it.
Over the recent years we witnessed one of the most obvious examples of tanking in NBA history. The 76ers literally did everything they could to lose games. Is this a losing culture? And how does this affect players? How does it affect fans?
From an objective standpoint the arena in Philly was well visited once Embiid was healthy. So does it affect the fans at all or is everything forgotten, when there is a small glimpse of winning basketball?
And what about the players? Coach Brown is pretty similar to Joerger. He wants his guys to play hard and never give up. Players like McConnell or Embiid did play hard. Okafor not so much. So does this mean the 76ers don't have a winning culture? Do they lack mentors? Is their rebuild doomed because of this?
Over the recent years we witnessed one of the most obvious examples of tanking in NBA history. The 76ers literally did everything they could to lose games. Is this a losing culture? And how does this affect players? How does it affect fans?
From an objective standpoint the arena in Philly was well visited once Embiid was healthy. So does it affect the fans at all or is everything forgotten, when there is a small glimpse of winning basketball?
And what about the players? Coach Brown is pretty similar to Joerger. He wants his guys to play hard and never give up. Players like McConnell or Embiid did play hard. Okafor not so much. So does this mean the 76ers don't have a winning culture? Do they lack mentors? Is their rebuild doomed because of this?
You just say we dont need those assets and compleatly dismiss when some of us are trying to explain why in our opinion those assets provide value. You think moving up in the draft with those assets arent valuable or we dont need that? You think that possibly upgrading one of our players to better player combining that player with those assets isnt valuable? In the 20th pick range in last couple of drafts we have drafted malachi, skal and giles. Those kinds of players have value during the draft if you want to trade them.
You say Im in a tank mode mentally but you seem to be in a playoff mode, I dont know how that makes anymore sense to you than being in a tank mode. And if you want to know where I am mentally, i think we are in the middle of a rebuild, one or two good pieces away from being able to start a healthy win now mode.
You say Im in a tank mode mentally but you seem to be in a playoff mode, I dont know how that makes anymore sense to you than being in a tank mode. And if you want to know where I am mentally, i think we are in the middle of a rebuild, one or two good pieces away from being able to start a healthy win now mode.
Tying salary this year doesnt matter since we wont be competing for a playoff spot anyway. Its the 15mil next year that matters and then its only a question of wich you value more, Zbo at age of 37 or Carroll+1st and 2nd round pick. And my reasonig for choosing Carroll: We have a logjam of non shooting bigs, We have other mentors, Carrol is the only one of the two that possibly could be tradeable next year, We have zero players like Carroll so I would think he'd be more valuable on the court next year (possibly neither of those will provide real value on the court) and having 1st and 2nd round picks are great for us since its hard enough for us the get top talent they provide the possibility of trading for one.
While I prefer ZBo as a player and mentor over Carroll, I'd gladly pay the 3mil salary difference to get a late first and 2nd round pick. The team is loaded with bigs, and a combo forward supplements the SF situation without hurting the PF depth.
If there was a way to put Koufos in the deal and still sign Zbo, then that would've been the best of both worlds.
Moot point now. Still a little bit of cap space to flip Koufos for a future pick this season.
If there was a way to put Koufos in the deal and still sign Zbo, then that would've been the best of both worlds.
Moot point now. Still a little bit of cap space to flip Koufos for a future pick this season.
I'm guessing Toronto had a couple of teams who would accept similar compensation for taking Carroll and then let him choose where he wanted to go. When it comes to taking on Salary for future assets it's a harder sell to management than signing a player to contribute. I would not be surprised if our ownership nixed the idea of paying $30M for a future first round pick.
I understood it to mean that he didn't play well in practice, not that he didn't practice hard or regularly. I came to that understanding after he said repeatedly that you have to work every day in order to get better, and he pointed those comments to the youngins.
I take the point though that you are trying to make. Because of the age of Carter and Zbo there is no way they can practice as long or hard over the course of the entire season as 19-25 year olds. It's going to be interesting how the coaching staff manages that dichotomy and how the message of work gets through to the youngins, even though it's not physically possible for these older guys to work as hard as the youngins.
I take the point though that you are trying to make. Because of the age of Carter and Zbo there is no way they can practice as long or hard over the course of the entire season as 19-25 year olds. It's going to be interesting how the coaching staff manages that dichotomy and how the message of work gets through to the youngins, even though it's not physically possible for these older guys to work as hard as the youngins.
One way of arriving at an idea of "winning culture" is by looking at it's opposite. How about the 1996 Dallas Mavericks, with second-year star Jason Kidd and Jim Jackson and Roy Tarpley? Tarpley was banned from the NBA for violating their drug policy and Kidd and Jackson didn't get along. The Mavericks suffered an 11-game losing streak in March, and finished fifth in the Midwest Division with a 26–56 record. The team imploded and they subsequently dismantled it. Or take a look at this 1992-3 history of the Portland Trailblazers (Source: Wikipedia):
"The next two seasons were just as disastrous for the team's reputation. Several players, including Wallace, Stoudamire, and Qyntel Woods, were cited for marijuana possession. Woods pleaded guilty to first-degree animal abuse for staging dog fights in his house, some involving his pit bull named Hollywood. Hollywood and Woods' other pit bull, Sugar, were confiscated, and Woods was given eighty hours of community service. He also agreed to donate $10,000 to the Oregon Humane Society. Wallace was suspended for seven games for threatening a referee.]Zach Randolph and Patterson got in a fight during practice, with Randolph sucker punching his teammate in the eye, an injury which kept Patterson from making a meaningful contribution during the playoffs. When police came to Stoudamire's house to respond to a burglar alarm, they noticed the smell of marijuana, searched the premises, and found a pound of cannabis located in a crawlspace; the search was later declared illegal and charges in the matter were dropped. Guard Bonzi Wells famously told Sports Illustrated in a 2002 interview: 'We’re not really going to worry about what the hell (the fans) think about us. They really don’t matter to us. They can boo us everyday, but they’re still going to ask for our autographs if they see us on the street. That's why they’re fans, and we’re NBA players.' Wells was fined $50,000 by the Blazers for the statement."
Note that some of those players, Randolph and Wallace in particular, redeemed themselves years down the line, when they finally became adults. Regardless, this is a cautionary tale of what you can get with a mix of immature youth and bad culture.
"The next two seasons were just as disastrous for the team's reputation. Several players, including Wallace, Stoudamire, and Qyntel Woods, were cited for marijuana possession. Woods pleaded guilty to first-degree animal abuse for staging dog fights in his house, some involving his pit bull named Hollywood. Hollywood and Woods' other pit bull, Sugar, were confiscated, and Woods was given eighty hours of community service. He also agreed to donate $10,000 to the Oregon Humane Society. Wallace was suspended for seven games for threatening a referee.]Zach Randolph and Patterson got in a fight during practice, with Randolph sucker punching his teammate in the eye, an injury which kept Patterson from making a meaningful contribution during the playoffs. When police came to Stoudamire's house to respond to a burglar alarm, they noticed the smell of marijuana, searched the premises, and found a pound of cannabis located in a crawlspace; the search was later declared illegal and charges in the matter were dropped. Guard Bonzi Wells famously told Sports Illustrated in a 2002 interview: 'We’re not really going to worry about what the hell (the fans) think about us. They really don’t matter to us. They can boo us everyday, but they’re still going to ask for our autographs if they see us on the street. That's why they’re fans, and we’re NBA players.' Wells was fined $50,000 by the Blazers for the statement."
Note that some of those players, Randolph and Wallace in particular, redeemed themselves years down the line, when they finally became adults. Regardless, this is a cautionary tale of what you can get with a mix of immature youth and bad culture.