Free Agency Open Thread (NBA and Kings!)
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You dont get a lottery pick in that kind of deal but you get one good asset and one low value asset. The more assets you get the more you can combine them for a one good/great assets in the future or you can consider them all as bites of the apple and hope you hit with one of them. Brooklyn gets an A+ grade for their offseason. Wish the Kings would have had little more patience.
Having raptors 1st and 2nd is way more valuable than one year of Vince Carter or two years of Zbo. Especially for the Kings who at the moment doesnt have all the pieces necessary to build a 45-50 win team.
Having raptors 1st and 2nd is way more valuable than one year of Vince Carter or two years of Zbo. Especially for the Kings who at the moment doesnt have all the pieces necessary to build a 45-50 win team.
The same Raptors that will feasibly contend to represent the East? That's not much of a pick(s). At some point you're going to have to temper your obsession with youth.
Hell, just look back to our team with Evans, IT, and DMC. Don't you think things would have shaken out a little differently with vets like ZBo and Carter and Hill and Temple leading the way? (Not to mention Joerger vs Smart).
There's a reason teams like the Spurs do what they do, and it isn't by turning the keys over to the kids. Foundation is way more important right now. This team, as structured, has the potential to be solid in a few years, given the importance of teaching and coaching. You're underestimating that.
Hell, just look back to our team with Evans, IT, and DMC. Don't you think things would have shaken out a little differently with vets like ZBo and Carter and Hill and Temple leading the way? (Not to mention Joerger vs Smart).
There's a reason teams like the Spurs do what they do, and it isn't by turning the keys over to the kids. Foundation is way more important right now. This team, as structured, has the potential to be solid in a few years, given the importance of teaching and coaching. You're underestimating that.
I think there is some merit to what you are saying but a late 1st early 2nd for a 30M obligation is not the irresistible proposition it was made out to be in the original post. Hypothetically if you can package those assets with own 2018 pick to move up then you have a viable plan but that is easier said than done. There has to be unique circumstances for a team to trade down. Otherwise most teams are very reluctant to trade down.
The highest ranked player at #10 this year (Collins) did not fit need for us and we anticipated Jackson at #15 with chance for Giles at #20. And that deal was only available because of Portland's cap and roster crunch.
If Kings could NOT trade up in 2018, and had to use for example the 25th pick and 35th pick, these guys are 3rd or 4th on your depth chart regardless of the position..... Think about that. You are paying 30M for an asset that projects as 3rd (or 4th) on your depth chart. What is appealing about that? I don't think much. Like I said if you can package assets in a 2:1 or 3:1 that's a decent idea. The execution is another story. And the risks are as high or higher than the rewards.
The highest ranked player at #10 this year (Collins) did not fit need for us and we anticipated Jackson at #15 with chance for Giles at #20. And that deal was only available because of Portland's cap and roster crunch.
If Kings could NOT trade up in 2018, and had to use for example the 25th pick and 35th pick, these guys are 3rd or 4th on your depth chart regardless of the position..... Think about that. You are paying 30M for an asset that projects as 3rd (or 4th) on your depth chart. What is appealing about that? I don't think much. Like I said if you can package assets in a 2:1 or 3:1 that's a decent idea. The execution is another story. And the risks are as high or higher than the rewards.
We arent going to be a playoff team this year either way so having assets will obviously be better because as I said, you can combine assets to get one good or great asset. For example moving up in the draft from 5 to 2 with those two toronto picks and one young player if we evualuate the second pick will be a franchise player. You can have some low end vets when you are still rebuilding, keep your flexibility and sign the win now vets when tou truly are ready to win now. The way I estimate, Kings with this current core and the average return of lets say 7th pick most likely will not be a 50 win core in the west in the future.
I am not excited about a 40 year old Vince Carter either but I would be less excited about Carroll at 30M over two years, the 2018 25th pick (hypothetically) and the 2018 35th pick (hypothetically). Carroll can't play. Maybe Carter can't play but you are tied to him for less money for less time. Put it this way, turning around the franchise is not going to dependent on missing out on the deal the Nets took.
I can appreciate looking for ways to gain assets. We are rebuilding after all. But I think the "Trust the Process" mindset is not foolproof and has yet to lead to even a playoff team. Yes, I know the Sixers are "spooky" good on paper. Let's see how long from start to championship it takes before we anoint this style of team building to be the only and true way.
For the record, I am not a Hinkie hater. I think he played the system well against other teams and it may work out. The Sixers have a promising future.
I am just saying just because their are future assets involved doesn't mean it's a no brainer. Not all that glitters is gold.
For the record, I am not a Hinkie hater. I think he played the system well against other teams and it may work out. The Sixers have a promising future.
I am just saying just because their are future assets involved doesn't mean it's a no brainer. Not all that glitters is gold.
A lot of your thoughts are based on assumptions or hypotheticals that can go either way. You are looking at worst case scenarios of Carroll never recovering from his injury and Toronto being a top 5 team in the whole league. Best case, there's a chance Carroll does recover to the form he was in atl and with so many teams improving, not to mention possible injuries, torontos pick can be anywhere from 20-30. $30 looks like a lot of money but broken down to $15 mil per year for only 2 years, it's not much more than zbo's contract and this is fit a position where we actually need a starter not an older mentor type. It's all moot now, but my goal was old mentor signings at pg and pf (zbo/Lawson type players) and a younger or starter ready sf (porter/crowder/Carroll).
The Raptors are not a Top 5 team but their record is likely to be Top 5 by playing in the weak East while top teams in West beat up on each other. DeMarre Carroll was shot in the ankle in a nightclub incident. Doctors and teams are fearful this hinders his athleticism substantially and permanently. It is not a worst case scenario I am painting for his prospective performance. It is a realistic scenario.
I am sorry mate but I am pretty sure if I was De'arron Fox, or Buddy Hield, or Bogdan Bogdanovic or Malachi Richardson or Justin Jackson, I would find myself gravitating more to Vince Carter than I would to Carroll.
One is a role played who plays defence. The other is an 8 time all-star, one of the most liked basketballers from the late 90s and early 2000s who has remodeled his game and himself to the point where he is still playing productive NBA basketball at the age of 40. If I was a young kid, I am pretty sure I would have a hell of a lot more to learn from a future hall of famer than I would from a role player. Especially since that future hall of famer has transformed himself from a perennial all-star into a team first role player along his journey which if you look around the league is VERY rare....these guys generally have a more than a healthy ego where they think that they are still superstars even when they can't run up and down the floor any more.
The fact that Carter is still playing at this age tells me that he is the ultimate professional who needs to keep himself in tremendous shape for that age to be still playing as well as he has been. In terms of passing the wisdom, I think the kids can learn a heck of a lot more from Carter than they would have from Carroll. Carter's journey has no doubt been a more fruitful one that has been exposed to a wider range of scenarios and game time and off the court experiences. He has been there and done that. His resume stacks up as well as that of many stars who are still playing the game and in their prime.
Similarly with Randolph, there is more wisdom that he can pass on to the young bigs than arguably any other free agents out there at that position. This is a guy who was a headcase for the first part of his career. Didn't understand what it takes, has made a lot of mistakes early on, to an all-star whose jersey will be hanging off the rafters in Memphis and who has been widely praised for his work in the community.
These two have careers that are "great stories" and with those great stories you have various experiences that some of these kids would never experience but they have a hell of a lot to learn from. My main disappointment is why Kings didn't get someone like ZBO when Cousins was here....now there is a guy that would have been an excellent mentor to Cousins both on and off the court.
One is a role played who plays defence. The other is an 8 time all-star, one of the most liked basketballers from the late 90s and early 2000s who has remodeled his game and himself to the point where he is still playing productive NBA basketball at the age of 40. If I was a young kid, I am pretty sure I would have a hell of a lot more to learn from a future hall of famer than I would from a role player. Especially since that future hall of famer has transformed himself from a perennial all-star into a team first role player along his journey which if you look around the league is VERY rare....these guys generally have a more than a healthy ego where they think that they are still superstars even when they can't run up and down the floor any more.
The fact that Carter is still playing at this age tells me that he is the ultimate professional who needs to keep himself in tremendous shape for that age to be still playing as well as he has been. In terms of passing the wisdom, I think the kids can learn a heck of a lot more from Carter than they would have from Carroll. Carter's journey has no doubt been a more fruitful one that has been exposed to a wider range of scenarios and game time and off the court experiences. He has been there and done that. His resume stacks up as well as that of many stars who are still playing the game and in their prime.
Similarly with Randolph, there is more wisdom that he can pass on to the young bigs than arguably any other free agents out there at that position. This is a guy who was a headcase for the first part of his career. Didn't understand what it takes, has made a lot of mistakes early on, to an all-star whose jersey will be hanging off the rafters in Memphis and who has been widely praised for his work in the community.
These two have careers that are "great stories" and with those great stories you have various experiences that some of these kids would never experience but they have a hell of a lot to learn from. My main disappointment is why Kings didn't get someone like ZBO when Cousins was here....now there is a guy that would have been an excellent mentor to Cousins both on and off the court.
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So why didn't the Nets or Bulls or any other rebuilding team reach out for them
The strategy, of paying players based on "mentorship" is both innovative and controversial. I personally would rather have either assets or other quality players like Hill. Dudes who can't play at a high level anymore imparting wisdom isn't what I look for in FA, period
Due to the fact that I don't agree with that philosophy, I'm going to hope there are other practical reasons at play here. Such as that space being more attractive next summer per dollar than this summer due to the amount of projected tax teams
The strategy, of paying players based on "mentorship" is both innovative and controversial. I personally would rather have either assets or other quality players like Hill. Dudes who can't play at a high level anymore imparting wisdom isn't what I look for in FA, period
Due to the fact that I don't agree with that philosophy, I'm going to hope there are other practical reasons at play here. Such as that space being more attractive next summer per dollar than this summer due to the amount of projected tax teams
The Nets are still navigating the damage of losing picks year after year from Billy King's tenure. Despite being bottom of the league for years they still won't have their own picks until 2019 I think. They need picks so bad it isn't funny.
The Bulls, between their owner and the Gar/Pax front office tandem, have been in a downward spiral for a long time with no respite in sight.
Neither the Nets nor Bulls are in a similar situation as us. Nets are grasping for picks while we reloaded our whole roster in 2 years time. Not saying we are finished. The Bulls are being run into the ground from the top. I promise most Bulls fans would agree with this. I haven't seen the Bulls do anything savvy in quite a long time.
The Bulls, between their owner and the Gar/Pax front office tandem, have been in a downward spiral for a long time with no respite in sight.
Neither the Nets nor Bulls are in a similar situation as us. Nets are grasping for picks while we reloaded our whole roster in 2 years time. Not saying we are finished. The Bulls are being run into the ground from the top. I promise most Bulls fans would agree with this. I haven't seen the Bulls do anything savvy in quite a long time.
But how do you know that other teams have not approached them? None of us know but I am not making assumptions that they haven't.
Point is that all the veterans that we have signed this off season CAN PLAY productive minutes in the NBA.
ZBo was a 6th man of the year candidate for a play off team averaging 14/8 in 24mpg. In fact he was inserted into the starting line up in the play offs because they needed some impact from PF that Green was not providing. In post season his minutes went up to 32mpg.
Similarly Carter played 25 mpg on a play off team and in the play offs his minutes went up to over 32mpg.
Those are indicators that both players can still play and PRODUCE for play off teams in the Western Conference. These are not some bums that will sit on the bench and not see any minutes. Joerger pretty much made it clear that he wants veterans that can still play because young players will listen to those and tune out those that are riding the back of the bench.
I would rather Carter at $8m for a single year than have Carroll at $30m over two years and a late first round pick. That's just me and I ABSOLUTELY believe in notion that young teams need veterans to push them, make them earn their minutes and mentor them about what it takes to be a successful, NBA professional. I have seen the impact this approach has on many level of Basketball including the NBA. Its how good teams do it.
Point is that all the veterans that we have signed this off season CAN PLAY productive minutes in the NBA.
ZBo was a 6th man of the year candidate for a play off team averaging 14/8 in 24mpg. In fact he was inserted into the starting line up in the play offs because they needed some impact from PF that Green was not providing. In post season his minutes went up to 32mpg.
Similarly Carter played 25 mpg on a play off team and in the play offs his minutes went up to over 32mpg.
Those are indicators that both players can still play and PRODUCE for play off teams in the Western Conference. These are not some bums that will sit on the bench and not see any minutes. Joerger pretty much made it clear that he wants veterans that can still play because young players will listen to those and tune out those that are riding the back of the bench.
I would rather Carter at $8m for a single year than have Carroll at $30m over two years and a late first round pick. That's just me and I ABSOLUTELY believe in notion that young teams need veterans to push them, make them earn their minutes and mentor them about what it takes to be a successful, NBA professional. I have seen the impact this approach has on many level of Basketball including the NBA. Its how good teams do it.
Committing 30M including 15M next year for a mid level starting SF and a late first round pick is the wrong decision.
I ask you this: if he was just a free agent at that price, do you sign him? The Kings thought no. Adding a late first round pick to the deal should not be the tipping point on a decision that big.
If you're the Kings it takes you almost completely out of the market for a big name free agent. By signing Vince you keep a significant amount of cap room for next summer and you have enough to target whoever you want. On the outside chance that the kids and geriatrics put something together this year and maybe even push for .500 and have a year with no personnel drama, all the sudden this becomes a VERY attractive place for a big name FA. You don't take that off the table for a 2 year rental on Carroll and a late first round pick.
I ask you this: if he was just a free agent at that price, do you sign him? The Kings thought no. Adding a late first round pick to the deal should not be the tipping point on a decision that big.
If you're the Kings it takes you almost completely out of the market for a big name free agent. By signing Vince you keep a significant amount of cap room for next summer and you have enough to target whoever you want. On the outside chance that the kids and geriatrics put something together this year and maybe even push for .500 and have a year with no personnel drama, all the sudden this becomes a VERY attractive place for a big name FA. You don't take that off the table for a 2 year rental on Carroll and a late first round pick.
It's neither actually.
When the Timberwolves drafted KG out of high school with the 5th pick they specifically signed Sam Mitchell and Terry Porter to be veteran mentors for him.
Countless teams have brought guys near the end of their career primarily to help young players and/or reshape the chemistry and locker room. The Kings did it themselves two years ago when they signed Caron Butler.
And it's easy to argue that they should have done it much earlier in Cousins' career. Philly has chosen not to bring in vets (until I guess Redick this year) but maybe a veteran mentor could have prevented Jahlil Okafor from his off the court transgressions.
Hinkie's goal was to constantly acquire assets until he drafted his superstar(s). Maybe Embiid, Simmons and/or Fultz are the guy(s) if they can stay healthy. That's the core they've got after five years of tanking.
Vlade seems to feel he's got the young talent he wants and is focused on developing those kids. Would Kawhi be Kawhi if he didn't have veteran mentors in San Antionio and a stable culture and coaching?
Whether it works or not, I understand the approach. There's more than one way to rebuild a franchise.
Exactly right.
For all the criticism Vlade got (rightfully) for the Philly trade and (maybe not as deserved) for the DMC trade, that Nets trade with the Celtics may actually be the top 3 worst trades of all time. Sean Marks is doing whatever he can to acquire talent but being a terrible team with either non-lottery picks or no picks at all is tough.
Nobody has any idea what the Bulls are doing. LaVine was starting to put things together before the injury and Markkanen looks like a player but Kris Dunn still looks like a disappointment and they don't seem to have any real strategy. Their front office seems clueless and I'm far from sold on Hoiberg as an NBA coach.
When the Timberwolves drafted KG out of high school with the 5th pick they specifically signed Sam Mitchell and Terry Porter to be veteran mentors for him.
Countless teams have brought guys near the end of their career primarily to help young players and/or reshape the chemistry and locker room. The Kings did it themselves two years ago when they signed Caron Butler.
And it's easy to argue that they should have done it much earlier in Cousins' career. Philly has chosen not to bring in vets (until I guess Redick this year) but maybe a veteran mentor could have prevented Jahlil Okafor from his off the court transgressions.
Hinkie's goal was to constantly acquire assets until he drafted his superstar(s). Maybe Embiid, Simmons and/or Fultz are the guy(s) if they can stay healthy. That's the core they've got after five years of tanking.
Vlade seems to feel he's got the young talent he wants and is focused on developing those kids. Would Kawhi be Kawhi if he didn't have veteran mentors in San Antionio and a stable culture and coaching?
Whether it works or not, I understand the approach. There's more than one way to rebuild a franchise.
Exactly right.
For all the criticism Vlade got (rightfully) for the Philly trade and (maybe not as deserved) for the DMC trade, that Nets trade with the Celtics may actually be the top 3 worst trades of all time. Sean Marks is doing whatever he can to acquire talent but being a terrible team with either non-lottery picks or no picks at all is tough.
Nobody has any idea what the Bulls are doing. LaVine was starting to put things together before the injury and Markkanen looks like a player but Kris Dunn still looks like a disappointment and they don't seem to have any real strategy. Their front office seems clueless and I'm far from sold on Hoiberg as an NBA coach.
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So let me get this straight. All the people begging to take one of Evan turner/Meyers Leonard/crabbe (all have contracts $30 mil or higher and longer contracts) and one of portlands picks whether it was the 20 or 26th, all of a sudden don't want a player at a position we need, a pick probably in the same vicinity, and a 2nd rounder? Ok 
So let me get this straight. All the people begging to take one of Evan turner/Meyers Leonard/crabbe (all have contracts $30 mil or higher and longer contracts) and one of portlands picks whether it was the 20 or 26th, all of a sudden don't want a player at a position we need, a pick probably in the same vicinity, and a 2nd rounder? Ok
I am still open to using salary cap space to bring in other trade assets such as a 1st round pick but there is a tipping point in terms of price. If it ties up my cap to the point where I cannot be a player in a possible blockbuster trade or the free agency, I am not taking it unless there is lottery pick attached to it. Not a late first rounder.
So let me get this straight. All the people begging to take one of Evan turner/Meyers Leonard/crabbe (all have contracts $30 mil or higher and longer contracts) and one of portlands picks whether it was the 20 or 26th, all of a sudden don't want a player at a position we need, a pick probably in the same vicinity, and a 2nd rounder? Ok
There is an opportunity cost to taking on that big of a contract in what everyone calls a salary dump. We give up a significant amount of flexibility, before we even know what JJ or Bogs can do. There is benefit to not trying to solve all your problems at once, because you might cut short your own solution.
We're not world beaters with Carroll. No way we keep him after two years anyway.
Good post. I agree Carter has a lot more to teach the kids than Carroll. But that's not what I was asking.
Having expierenced a lot is positive when it comes to passing your wisdom to the younger generation, but it doesn't mean you are a good teacher.
Just a simple example - my father at his time was one of the leading german experts when it came to marine technology. He was an outstanding development engineer and had quite a few patent applications. So in theory he is excactly the type of guy, you want young engineers to learn from. Problem is, he is a horrible teacher. The old man is and always was pretty much like a confused professor. He can hardly explain simple things like integration to his grandchilds, because he just can't follow a simple path, but wants to explain 3 different methods to one problem at once. Whenever I was forced to learn for maths exams in school, my father came in, eager to help and after a few hours of fruitless attempts to explain things to me, it ended up with me explaining to him, how we do things in school and him rambling over how idiotic and over complicated our "school methods" were. Nowadays this are beloved memories, but at that time.....
But back to the topic:
For us from the outside looking in, there is no way to find out, who of those guys is a good teacher.
From what we heard out of our now sophomores the guy they bonded the most with was Temple. Temple is not a high profile NBA player, but he may be a great teacher. I remember Temple saying, that the rookies nowadays want to be treated as man and want to be respected. That for example was an entirely different approach, than the approach Rudy Gay had towards young guys, who repeatedly made fun of them in interviews or suggested he didn't know their names, because they were rookies and such (DMC had similar tendencies, but in public was a lot more supportive towards the young players). It may be this method of empowerment towards the rookies, that made Temple their favorite vet and a guy, they willingly learned from.
So I would guess you don't have to be a high profile player to be a great teacher and if you are a high profile player, it doesn't automatically mean you can teach things.
The thing we do know, is that Joerger knows Carter well enough. So if Joerger wanted Carter as a teacher for the young guys, we pretty much have to trust him.
I'm still not excited, because I do think using our capspace differently may have gotten us a few additional assets, but that's hypothetical and a different topic.
Having expierenced a lot is positive when it comes to passing your wisdom to the younger generation, but it doesn't mean you are a good teacher.
Just a simple example - my father at his time was one of the leading german experts when it came to marine technology. He was an outstanding development engineer and had quite a few patent applications. So in theory he is excactly the type of guy, you want young engineers to learn from. Problem is, he is a horrible teacher.
The old man is and always was pretty much like a confused professor. He can hardly explain simple things like integration to his grandchilds, because he just can't follow a simple path, but wants to explain 3 different methods to one problem at once. Whenever I was forced to learn for maths exams in school, my father came in, eager to help and after a few hours of fruitless attempts to explain things to me, it ended up with me explaining to him, how we do things in school and him rambling over how idiotic and over complicated our "school methods" were. Nowadays this are beloved memories, but at that time.....But back to the topic:
For us from the outside looking in, there is no way to find out, who of those guys is a good teacher.
From what we heard out of our now sophomores the guy they bonded the most with was Temple. Temple is not a high profile NBA player, but he may be a great teacher. I remember Temple saying, that the rookies nowadays want to be treated as man and want to be respected. That for example was an entirely different approach, than the approach Rudy Gay had towards young guys, who repeatedly made fun of them in interviews or suggested he didn't know their names, because they were rookies and such (DMC had similar tendencies, but in public was a lot more supportive towards the young players). It may be this method of empowerment towards the rookies, that made Temple their favorite vet and a guy, they willingly learned from.
So I would guess you don't have to be a high profile player to be a great teacher and if you are a high profile player, it doesn't automatically mean you can teach things.
The thing we do know, is that Joerger knows Carter well enough. So if Joerger wanted Carter as a teacher for the young guys, we pretty much have to trust him.
I'm still not excited, because I do think using our capspace differently may have gotten us a few additional assets, but that's hypothetical and a different topic.