Fox gone, Tatum or Isaac at 5?
- Thread starter kingsfan1984
- Start date
Tatum to Orlando at 6
I'm thinking they like Smith.
It's a possibility.....he would give them a dynamic option at PG.
Suicide King
Starter
If the first 6 are Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Isaac , Fox, Smith then I hope we call Thibs about a possible Tatum at 7 for Markannen/Colins at 10 type of deal. Worth a shot.
I can easily see the first 6 playing out that way. With many mocks connecting the Wolves to Markannen anyways it makes sense they might trade back to 10 if hes still there. I would love Tatum at 7 but not at 5. What we might offer to sweeten the deal, good question.
Suicide King
Starter
@Jimbob
That is a good question indeed. We don't have a body of work with Thibs in a FO role to look at and get an idea of his thinking.
I do know two things about the T-Wolves situation. They lack reliable outside shooting and they were not great defensively.
I also know very early on it was said Thibs might consider moving the pick for a vet. Unfortunately I don't think our vets would be of interest to them.
I think a lot of these draft day deals are very fragile, with deals materializing or falling apart at the moment a team involved is on the clock. If the T-Wolves really want Isaac ( I don't know for sure ) would they not be intrigued by Tatum at least a little.
Hard to say.
That is a good question indeed. We don't have a body of work with Thibs in a FO role to look at and get an idea of his thinking.
I do know two things about the T-Wolves situation. They lack reliable outside shooting and they were not great defensively.
I also know very early on it was said Thibs might consider moving the pick for a vet. Unfortunately I don't think our vets would be of interest to them.
I think a lot of these draft day deals are very fragile, with deals materializing or falling apart at the moment a team involved is on the clock. If the T-Wolves really want Isaac ( I don't know for sure ) would they not be intrigued by Tatum at least a little.
Hard to say.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Whereas Tibb's is a defensive minded coach, the only veteran player that might interest him is Temple. Don't know if that would sweeten the pot enough, but might be worth a try.
Temple grew on me over the season - did not impress when I first watched but slowly my impression brightened.....I would wince if they traded him at least. He seems to be an important player for the team leadership I think.
ockingsfan
Starter
That's actually perfect for the Kings.
So far, Jackson said he's not working out for anyone past 3 and Issac not past 4, so.... that means they have promises from those teams.
Fultz is going 1, Ball will go 2 or 3, Jackson 3 or 2, Issac at 4.
That really telegraphs the players that the Kings will chose from, Fox and Tatum should be available at 5.
So.... we will be picking between Fox and Tatum at 5.
ockingsfan
Starter
Kosta Koufos might also have some value for Thibs.
We can also can take back a bad contract like Pekovic's contract to move up to 7 for Tatum. And we take Fox at 5.
Maybe something like our #10, KK, and our #34 for #7 (Tatum) and Pekovic's salary dump.
If we come out of the draft with Fox at 5 and Tatum at 7, Vlade would be a genius.
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kingsfan1984
Starter
Was watching Isaac versus Tatum highlights from the FS and Duke game. Isaac had a lot slower foot speed than I expected to see. Tatum was able to get a step on him to get to the rim easier than i thought. Also, it was Tatum with the highlight defensive plays. Head to head i came away thinking Tatum looked just fine athleticly with a very high IQ on both sides of the floor. Good hands and anticipation defensively.
Folsomkingsfan
Starter
I'm at my Phoenix office right now. Was listening to the radio and the general consensus here is that most people prefer Isaac. A trainer for the team was on the phone and he said they really like Isaac's athleticism and ability to switch onto multiple positions defensively. He also said that management really likes Fox, but wasn't sure if the team was ready to move on from Bledsoe who a lot of people within the organization still like.
biltalent
Starter
Kosta Koufos might also have some value for Thibs.
We can also can take back a bad contract like Pekovic's contract to move up to 7 for Tatum. And we take Fox at 5.
Maybe something like our #10, KK, and our #34 for #7 (Tatum) and Pekovic's salary dump.
If we come out of the draft with Fox at 5 and Tatum at 7, Vlade would be a genius.
Yeah Ive been thinking along those lines as well. However I would replace Koufos with Afflalo. The Twolves already pay Cole Alridge and I think Thibs is more interested in creating cap space by waiving Afflalo so he can sign Rose and other veteran defenders.
Or if Thibs wants Koufos you keep him in the deal and add Afflalo, and Aldridge + Pekovic come back.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I really don't get drafting Isaac, a guy who has not proven anything offensively other than a catch and shoot guy. He's shown zippo offensive creativity, he hasn't shown any ability to be a go-to guy, or have any ball handling skills worth mentioning. If you draft him you're banking on the hope that it's the system and coach that has suppressed his awesome offensive talent that he has been unable to demonstrate. Is this guy going to ever be able to break down a defense? Is ever in his lifetime going to be able to make passes off the dribble? Why would the Kings spend a #5 pick on a guy who is eventually going to be a 3 and D guy? That's a guy you get in the teens or the 20s or lower. Or it's a guy you can get in FA. You can't get a major star in FA if you're the Kings. The draft is it. You get your stars in the draft or you settle for eternal damnable mediocrity. The only discussion should be: Does he have a legit chance at stardom or not? Period. The End. Stars play offense. Stars are guys who get their shot, who make plays for others, who have creative offensive games. He's long and he's athletic and undeveloped and he's a major offensive project in NBA terms and he's not going to stop anybody worth mentioning in the NBA. Look, if you're dying for a player like Trevor Ariza, I get it. I like Trevor Ariza as a nice defensive player. But if you like a player like Trevor Ariza, then go out and get him in FA or make a minor trade deal. Don't waste a #5 on a young Trevor Ariza. If they really think that Isaac is the best they can do, they really need to trade up. Get the #3 at least so at the least they can get Jackson. At least you can begin to see something with Jackson doesn't require hallucinogens in order to see the possibility of stardom.
I like Isaac and think there is some good upside there but he's not better than Tatum. Could he be? Maybe but currently, you take the offensive upside of Tatum every time. Those guys are hard to come by. Isaac may never develop that offensive mentality....but he has some good positives.
I also don't see go-to scorer ability in Isaac. He's got good quickness and solid ballhandling for his size so the hope is there that he expands his game on offense, but right now he's pretty much limited to catch-and-shoots, pull ups off the dribble, turnaround jumpers closer to the basket, and open lane drives to the hoop. His hands concern me as he doesn't always catch passes cleanly, but yes, at the very least I think he can be a guy who hits open shots and gets some tip-ins on offense.
But I think you're underrating him on the other end. He's more than just a good defender ala Ariza. He's a good rebounder, a very good shotblocker and guy who can be used to switch on pretty much anything which is becoming increasingly important in today's NBA. But just his length and shotblocking make him much more valuable than Ariza. I know Markkanen (erroneously IMO) keeps getting the Porzingis comp, but to me Isaac is more of a poor man's Porzingis with better defense and less versatility on offense.
Blob
Starter
Wow. Serious misread and misguided analysis of an awesome prospect. I will remember this and those who clicked "Like". We will revisit this in future if you guys are around to own up to your inaccurate assessment.
The Suns are highly likely to take Isaac #4 (over Tatum, Smith Jr, etc). Period. This will be the first indication of his superior talent and the inability of some to assess prospects with any competent degree of accuracy. Isaac is going to be a fantastic pro. Comparing him to Trevor Ariza is ridiculous. And one more thing, in unfortunate event that the Top 4 players of this draft are: Fultz, Jackson, Ball, Fox, then the newest Sacramento King is going to be Jonathan Isaac if Vlade has his head half screwed on straight. That's the bottom line by any semblance of prudent analysis so you may as well prepare yourself now to cheer for the "next Trevor Ariza"
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Blob
Starter
This is good analysis. Also I would include fact that Isaac went through a late growth spurt allowed him to develop guard-like skills and retain his coordination and agility when he went from 6"5 to 6"11. It is not like he is this gangly green bean growing into his body with his limbs flying all over the place.
The indicator I look for with prospects is reaction time or first to the ball. Isaac has this. So he's the tallest and longest guy on the floor AND he gets after it with coordination and agility. That's a guy who is going to make plays. This is the simplest and most concise way I can put it. And why he projects as a great pro.
Folsomkingsfan
Starter
Wow. Serious misread and misguided analysis of an awesome prospect. I will remember this and those who clicked "Like". We will revisit this in future if you guys are around to own up to your inaccurate assessment.
And one more thing, in unfortunate event that the Top 4 players of this draft are: Fultz, Jackson, Ball, Fox, then the newest Sacramento King is going to be Jonathan Isaac if Vlade has his head half screwed on straight. That's the bottom line by any semblance of prudent analysis so you may as well prepare yourself now to cheer for the "next Trevor Ariza"
Definitely missed the mark on the comparison. Trevor Ariza is a bad comparison. I'm pretty hesitant on Isaac just because I feel like his floor is very low. He showed great athleticism, defensive instincts, and 3 point shooting, but he's also very thin, uncoordinated at times, and isn't great at attacking the basket. He's definitely the biggest boom or bust prospect, which is why I think claiming he is going to be a bust is premature, but also saying he is going to be a fantastic pro is as well.
I'd still take him over Tatum though. Tatum is an isolation 2 point scorer, who isn't athletic, and has a small wingspan. He reminds me of a cross between Tobias Harris and Rudy Gay. He's probably more of a sure thing, but I don't think his skill set leads to many wins.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
I'm not a fan of Tatum either. I'll be disappointed if the Kings end up with him @#5.
I think people (not just on this board but in the media, on draft sites etc) have things twisted when it comes to Tatum and Isaac.
In my opinion, Tatum is the more boom or bust prospect and Isaac is the high floor kid with an unknown (could be high or low) ceiling.
If Tatum struggles to score against NBA forwards then he doesn't bring much else to the table and will have to reinvent his game to find and NBA niche. If he CAN be a go-to scorer in the NBA (maybe not immediately but in time) then he's a very valuable player. I still question if he can play in a style that leads to wins but he's young and coachable enough that I think that's reasonable to assume.
Isaac on the other hand I think is very likely to be a very good defender and a reasonable outside shooter. If he becomes more on a offense then great but I think a reasonable floor is a Marvin Williams type who guards the perimeter better and blocks some shots.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
He doesn't have the lateral foot speed of an Ariza. So he's a little more than Ariza in some areas, a little less in others. Net-net he's a complementary role player, just like Ariza. You're overvaluing length and shotblocking and undervaluing offensive capability. Utah has the best defensive center in the game; just a hunch, but I think Gobert has got the length and the shot blocking ability that is head and shoulders above Isaac. What happened against the Warriors? Utah gets de-molished. Gobert is in the game, they get demolished. Gobert is out of the game - demolished. In order to win in today's NBA you better put tremendous offensive pressure on the other team. Personally, I think good offensive players just love to go against players who are offensively deficient and defensively proficient. LOVE IT! Why? Because they don't have to exhaust themselves defending the offensively deficient player on the other end of the floor. You can put Gobert out there at center and then pick four other very good defensive but bad offensive players (four Tony Allen's) out on the court and that team would get de-molished by the Warrior or Cleveland by 100-50. Defense is being overrated on this board in my view and offense is being under-rated. We need a star, and stars score!
Blob
Starter
I love offense. I loved Buddy as a prospect last year because of his scoring prowess. I don't see that in Tatum. One of reasons De'Aaron Fox is my favorite prospect is because he is going to put tremendous pressure on the opponent. He's non stop energy and attack mode. His first step and ability to get to the rim is elite.. If Tatum had better leaps, first step, shooting stroke, power and force to create space, better than 55% TS when he is predominantly a scorer, or combination of the above, I would advocate for drafting him. But he hasn't shown these attributes. Even if he falls to #10 I would not be that excited to take him. We are going to be better off around trio of Fox, Buddy and Skal with athletes, defenders spot shooters and dunkers than adding a non-defender who scores at meddling efficiency. If he turns into more, I will be first to admit inaccurate assessment.
Wow. Serious misread and misguided analysis of an awesome prospect. I will remember this and those who clicked "Like". We will revisit this in future if you guys are around to own up to your inaccurate assessment.
You do realize that most of us really don't give a flying rat's *** about what you choose to remember.
You do realize that most of us really don't give a flying rat's *** about what you choose to remember.
Where did you find the flying rat?!?
Blob
Starter
You do realize that most of us really don't give a flying rat's *** about what you choose to remember.
Most of us? This is tactic of an insecure person and bully. To create illusion of one vs many. Why do you do this? Are you not secure in expressing yourself without thinking there are like-minded individuals in your corner? You have 12000 posts and 1000 likes (12:1). I have one like per post (1:1) . I wouldn't be so presumptuous to presume that you speak for the masses.
whozit
Starter
You like statistics. You have to put your numbers into context. Being able to "like" is relatively new. Warhark has been here a long time. Many of his/her posts have been before that ability. Your numbers therefore don't hold any weight in this instance.Most of us? This is tactic of an insecure person and bully. To create illusion of one vs many. Why do you do this? Are you not secure in expressing yourself without thinking there are like-minded individuals in your corner? You have 12000 posts and 1000 likes (12:1). I have one like per post (1:1) . I wouldn't be so presumptuous to presume that you speak for the masses.
roasthawg
Starter
Seems like you're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand you say that if Phoenix takes Isaac at #4 that shows that you were right about him all along because an NBA gm agrees with you. On the other hand, if Phoenix passes on him and Vlade takes a guy like Tatum or better yet imo dsj then Vlade needs to be fired immediately.Wow. Serious misread and misguided analysis of an awesome prospect. I will remember this and those who clicked "Like". We will revisit this in future if you guys are around to own up to your inaccurate assessment.
And one more thing, in unfortunate event that the Top 4 players of this draft are: Fultz, Jackson, Ball, Fox, then the newest Sacramento King is going to be Jonathan Isaac if Vlade has his head half screwed on straight. That's the bottom line by any semblance of prudent analysis so you may as well prepare yourself now to cheer for the "next Trevor Ariza"
Basically regardless of what happens in the draft you'll consider yourself justified by the results. I think a better approach would be to sit back and wait for things to play out. Eventually we'll know who the better player is, and that's all that matters in the long run.
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