Fox gone, Tatum or Isaac at 5?

[funkykingston]

I think you should always tender an offer and see what happens.

There are some teams over the salary cap, and I can see a team like Cleveland possibly being interested in Ben, seeing that LeBron was a huge Ben supporter coming out of college.

A team may offer a second round pick to assure we won't match. Therefore, they can offer a more market rate contract, instead of overpaying for BMac, to make sure we don't match. That way they save on spending on Ben's contract and re-assuring they get him with a 2nd round pick.

I think it depends. If Ben wants to move on and the Kings have no intention of re-signing him then you're just making it harder for him to find a new team for the slight chance you can squeeze a late 2nd in a sign-and-trade. That's something an agent (and other agents around the league) will remember.

 

[ockingsfan]

I think it depends. If Ben wants to move on and the Kings have no intention of re-signing him then you're just making it harder for him to find a new team for the slight chance you can squeeze a late 2nd in a sign-and-trade. That's something an agent (and other agents around the league) will remember.

To be honest, good teams do it all the time. If you can get an asset for a player, you do it. The objective of a GM should always be to do what you can to improve your team. If I can get a second round pick for bmac, instead of letting yet another former 1st round pick walk for nothing, then I'm going to try to get an asset in return.

Agents will always do what's best for themselves, they won't do what's best for the Kings.

Also, a second round pick can turn into a Hassan whiteside, ishiah thomas or Marc gasol, so those picks can be very valuable.

 

[Gguod]

At this stage we don't know what our front office will decide to do with them. It is possible they move them on, but what is their current trade value? I'd say we would struggle to get more than a second round pick for them. At that price point we might as well keep a veteran like Afflalo around because he can help mentor players and slot into the SG/SF role when needed, and despite being a draft bust, McLemore did have some good games towards the end of last season and perhaps he can continue to carve out a role for himself off the bench - which is something a lot of us have suggested in the past that he could become a sixth man like player. Now I could understand moving both players if we need to clear cap space, but we don't need to do that this year since we are beginning another multi-year rebuild. So unless either player can fetch a late first round pick, or are packaged in any trade deals, then it is possible both players are on our roster at the start of the season.

Keeping Afflalo and Ben would be just stupid. All the possible playing time in the wing need to be going to our wing prospects, Malachi, Buddy, possibly Bogdanovic plus the two draft picks. Temple will be enough of a veteran presence. Kings dont nees to sacrifice the development of the young guys just to get to 30 win season and again destroy the opportunity to draft a franchise player. Next year is the last opportunity to get the franchise player so playing Koufos and Afflalo would be just dumb. Constantly drafting outside top 4 destroys the chances of the kings ever getting really good

 

[LPKingsFan]

I think it depends. If Ben wants to move on and the Kings have no intention of re-signing him then you're just making it harder for him to find a new team for the slight chance you can squeeze a late 2nd in a sign-and-trade. That's something an agent (and other agents around the league) will remember.

We could always rescind the offer if it appears to be delaying an inevitable departure, as we did with Seth Curry (unwisely, some might say)

 

[funkykingston]

To be honest, good teams do it all the time. If you can get an asset for a player, you do it. The objective of a GM should always be to do what you can to improve your team. If I can get a second round pick for bmac, instead of letting yet another former 1st round pick walk for nothing, then I'm going to try to get an asset in return.

Agents will always do what's best for themselves, they won't do what's best for the Kings.

Also, a second round pick can turn into a Hassan whiteside, ishiah thomas or Marc gasol, so those picks can be very valuable.

Almost every team has the caproom to sign Ben outright. And I think they'd just call the Kings bluff on matching rather than give up a pick just to sign Ben.

For the few teams over the cap to do a sign-and-trade would mean the Kings taking back around $6-10 million in salary depending on what McLemore signs for. Looking over those teams rosters I don't see anything they'd be willing to give up for Ben that I'd want back in trade.

 

[ockingsfan]

Almost every team has the caproom to sign Ben outright. And I think they'd just call the Kings bluff on matching rather than give up a pick just to sign Ben.

For the few teams over the cap to do a sign-and-trade would mean the Kings taking back around $6-10 million in salary depending on what McLemore signs for. Looking over those teams rosters I don't see anything they'd be willing to give up for Ben that I'd want back in trade.

If the other team calls the Kings bluff, then so be it. I am tired of letting players walk, like IT and Seth Curry, without trying to get something in return.

If they call our bluff and sign Ben to a reasonable contract, then we always have the option to match. If they sign Ben to a crazy high contract, you let him walk. At least we tried to get an asset.

Worst case if we match on a reasonable contract, we retain a player that already knows our system. Ben can still be a useful player in the right system. Coach Joeger and Vlade said at the post season conference he wants Ben back (may be posturing), so you never know. The Kings need to add salary anyways, why not Ben.

 

[funkykingston]

If the other team calls the Kings bluff, then so be it. I am tired of letting players walk, like IT and Seth Curry, without trying to get something in return.

If they sign Ben to a reasonable contract, then we always have the option to match. If they sign Ben to a crazy high contract, you let him walk. At least we tried to get an asset.

Worst case if we match on a reasonable contract, we retain a player that already knows our system. Ben can still be a useful player in the right system. Coach Joeger and Vlade said at the post season conference he wants Ben back (may be posturing), so you never know. The Kings need to add salary anyways, why not Ben.

I guess I just would rather see Ben walk. I don't think he's better than Hield or Temple or Richardson and he may not be better than Bogdanovic either. To sign him to a three or four year deal to be the fifth SG on the roster just to avoid letting a former draft pick walk doesn't make sense to me.

Others may have a higher opinion of McLemore but I've seen enough over the last four years that I don't want to sign up to watch it for years 5-7 too.

FWIW, I hated that they let Curry go. He would have been an ideal third PG this year and between injuries and Collison's suspension he would have gotten a lot of minutes.

 

[ockingsfan]

I guess I just would rather see Ben walk. I don't think he's better than Hield or Temple or Richardson and he may not be better than Bogdanovic either. To sign him to a three or four year deal to be the fifth SG on the roster just to avoid letting a former draft pick walk doesn't make sense to me.

Others may have a higher opinion of McLemore but I've seen enough over the last four years that I don't want to sign up to watch it for years 5-7 too.

FWIW, I hated that they let Curry go. He would have been an ideal third PG this year and between injuries and Collison's suspension he would have gotten a lot of minutes.

I know, I was pissed when they let Seth Curry walk for nothing. He would of been very useful with the games D.C. missed and we could have had him for 2 years on a reasonable contract.

As for Ben, I may be in the minority, but I think he can be useful as a swingman between Shooting guard and Small Forward off the bench. He is still young and only 24 years old and was starting to figure thing out at the end of last season.

 

[ESP47]

He actually shot nearly identical percentages to Hield during the last half of the season or so and if anyone was paying attention, Hield was incredibly efficient. I'd like to see him continue that success but with another team. We just need something different.

 

[Jimbob]

At what point do some of the bigger name players start working out for the Kings? I enjoy the speculation, however feel like we are going round and round a bit on who we pick at 5 and 10.
Most these guys have played one year of college ball and to me that's not a lot to go on. Monk needs to come in and show he can facilitate, if its a pleasant surprise then I'm high on him at 5 assuming Fox is off the board. That's just one example, all these guys need to showcase their skills, willingness to play as a King, and character.
Lonzo Ball I don't even consider, I have a 19 year old son that is smart enough to say dad **** off, this is my life, my decisions. I don't care how much talent he has, that family has issues, the male equivalents to the Kardashians.

Ok, perhaps a bit harsh on the kid. Iv'e heard him interview and by himself he seems decent enough and of course confident. But did he really refuse to work out for Boston?

***Don't try to get around the profanity filters. - Warhawk

 

[kingsboi]

At what point do some of the bigger name players start working out for the Kings? I enjoy the speculation, however feel like we are going round and round a bit on who we pick at 5 and 10.
Most these guys have played one year of college ball and to me that's not a lot to go on. Monk needs to come in and show he can facilitate, if its a pleasant surprise then I'm high on him at 5 assuming Fox is off the board. That's just one example, all these guys need to showcase their skills, willingness to play as a King, and character.
Lonzo Ball I don't even consider, I have a 19 year old son that is smart enough to say dad fuccc off, this is my life, my decisions. I don't care how much talent he has, that family has major issues, the male equivalents to the Kardashians.

patience...you know June is usually the time when all the big name prospects come in for workouts, not just here but for other squads as well.

 

[King in England]

I think this is the scenario we'll be looking at. For me the top 4 players in the draft are Fultz, Ball, Fox, Jackson, in that order. And I think they'll be picked in that order unfortunately. 76ers are the obvious question mark and for me there is no way Jackson makes it past PHX if he falls that far.

This is the position I don't want to be in. I feel a lot less comfortable picking between Tatum, Isaac and Smith, as in my opinion, that is clearly lower talent tier than the first 4. Until recently I was confident in Tatum being the obvious pick, however I'm starting to cool on that idea. Articles like this one have made me think... https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draf...rkkanen-deaaron-fox-jayson-tatum-ca11f00a4a39

I'm starting to lean towards swinging for the fences and drafting Smith. For me, he would be the most intriguing/exciting pick if not a little scary.

 

[kingsboi]

I think this is the scenario we'll be looking at. For me the top 4 players in the draft are Fultz, Ball, Fox, Jackson, in that order. And I think they'll be picked in that order unfortunately. 76ers are the obvious question mark and for me there is no way Jackson makes it past PHX if he falls that far.

This is the position I don't want to be in. I feel a lot less comfortable picking between Tatum, Isaac and Smith, as in my opinion, that is clearly lower talent tier than the first 4. Until recently I was confident in Tatum being the obvious pick, however I'm starting to cool on that idea. Articles like this one have made me think... https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draf...rkkanen-deaaron-fox-jayson-tatum-ca11f00a4a39

I'm starting to lean towards swinging for the fences and drafting Smith. For me, he would be the most intriguing/exciting pick if not a little scary.

the Kings are in a position to draft a player and swing for the fences, the team is in need of a franchise cornerstone and if they feel it's Smith then I support their decision on that. Nothing scary about drafting Smith IMO.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Normally in a rebuild I'd agree but the Kings had four rookies last year (plus WCS the year before) and are poised to add 4 more counting Bogdanovic. There's just not enough PT to develop that many kids. And the Kings don't yet have a star. Better to consolidate for better talent.

d league

 

[Ozymandias]

Multiple reports have reached a growing belief that highly-touted UCLA freshman Lonzo Ball isn’t much of a sure shot to wear purple and gold by the end of draft night on June 22.

According to Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, Ball would probably not be the guy the Los Angeles Lakers will take with the No. 2 overall pick unless he “absolutely blows the doors off” with his workout on June 7.

The Chino Hills native could be drafted behind Kansas‘ Josh Jackson and Kentucky‘s De’Aaron Fox. The concern has become so real in Ball’s camp, that after declining a workout with the Boston Celtics, they’ve become increasingly receptive to meeting with the Philadelphia 76ers and the Sacramento Kings, depending on how the workout goes with the Lakers.

Kyler’s colleague, Joel Brigham has him potentially dropping to No. 5 overall to the talent-starved Kings, who wouldn’t pass up on the chance for a point guard.

Another colleague, Moke Hamilton presented a different scenario, where he sees the Lakers “increasingly open-minded” to trading away Jordan Clarkson as soon as they can on draft night, in order to make room for Ball — though that doesn’t say much if he’s forced to come off the bench behind D’Angelo Russell.
Hamilton notes that despite being roughly three weeks away, the Lakers are in no rush to clear a potential logjam at the guard position.

It seems like after all, his father’s stubbornness of going all-in to his hometown Lakers could result on an astronomical misfire, given that if Los Angeles chooses to pass on him, he could drop down several spots until he’s set to be a fit for some of the teams in the lottery.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Multiple reports have reached a growing belief that highly-touted UCLA freshman Lonzo Ball isn’t much of a sure shot to wear purple and gold by the end of draft night on June 22.
...

Kyler’s colleague, Joel Brigham has him potentially dropping to No. 5 overall to the talent-starved Kings, who wouldn’t pass up on the chance for a point guard.

Yes, please!

That said, I don't see any chance of Ball dropping to 5. If we want Ball, we'll need to trade up to get him.

 

[funkykingston]

Yes, please!

That said, I don't see any chance of Ball dropping to 5. If we want Ball, we'll need to trade up to get him.

I don't either. I think he's an ideal fit in Philadelphia and they wouldn't let him fall past #3.

If the Lakers do pass on Ball I have to think it's more likely that they do so to draft Jackson rather than Fox.

 

[Jimbob]

That would be a little bit too weird for Ball to 5, I don't think it will happen . If by chance it does, I guess I would have to put aside all my judgement because his ability to facilitate is undeniable and that's what the Kings have lacked for a long time.

 

[LPKingsFan]

This thread took some different turns but I am bumping it because I continue to change my mind daily on the original question. Anyone else doing the same?

 

[Mike]

This thread took some different turns but I am bumping it because I continue to change my mind daily on the original question. Anyone else doing the same?

If Isaac and Tatum are there at five, I think I would still take Tatum because he's more polished than Isaac and could offer a scoring punch to our lineup.

I am intrigued by Isaac's upside but he's arguably the more risky pick because if the offensive side of his game doesn't develop then he's likely to be a similar calibre player to Marvin Williams. Now that's not a bad thing because Marvin Williams has carved out a successful career for himself as a defensively minded forward that can shoot the three ball, but ideally you want more than that from your top five pick (I think Marvin Williams went second overall ahead of Deron Williams and Chris Paul if I'm not mistaken?). I guess that gives Isaac a decent floor because if he does become a really good defensive player with a solid but unspectacular offensive game, then those types of players are useful. Granted we lack a true go to scorer but perhaps Buddy and Skal can take up that mantle. Plus, a front court of Isaac, Skal and Willie could be really good defensively, though whether that's what will win in today's NBA without being great offensively is debatable.

What I see from Tatum is someone that is good all round player at both ends of the court, he doesn't really have an elite attribute, but he does offer a pretty safe floor and I see a lot of Otto Porter in him. If he breaks out offensively then he could become a Rudy Gay like player but with greater defensive ability. There's certainly potential for Tatum to become a 20 a night guy and if that occurs then that would fit nicely into our starting line up.

For me, I would go Tatum over Isaac, but I wouldn't complain if we did take Isaac over Tatum.

 

[funkykingston]

I keep swinging back and forth on whether I'd rather have Isaac or Tatum. Right now I lean (once again) towards Isaac.

BUT, one thing that I don't see mentioned much is that Isaac has asthma. While the argument has been made that Florida State's sub pattern and depth suppressed some of Isaac's numbers, it may also be true that it allowed him to have enough rest that his asthma didn't become an issue. I don't know how big of an issue it is, but it's there.

 

[ockingsfan]

This thread took some different turns but I am bumping it because I continue to change my mind daily on the original question. Anyone else doing the same?

Not really, I would still take Tatum over Issac.

I might even take Tatum over Fox, considering the way the NBA is more wing dominated now. Plus, I think their is a higher chance a point guard like Frank N or DSJ drops to 10.

In today's NBA, a small forward that is a dominant scorer, like Lebron, Durant, Kawaii, George, Butler, etc. is essential for team success.

Issac would be nice at 10 or if we move up from 10 to get him, but at 5 I think their are way too many question marks, including if he is more a 3 or 4. I just don't see Issac as a dominant scorer in the league. Good 2 way player, but not dominant.

 

[ockingsfan]

BUT, one thing that I don't see mentioned much is that Isaac has asthma. While the argument has been made that Florida State's sub pattern and depth suppressed some of Isaac's numbers, it may also be true that it allowed him to have enough rest that his asthma didn't become an issue. I don't know how big of an issue it is, but it's there.

I was not aware of Issac's asthma issue. Good information to know when making a draft pick.

 

[funkykingston]

Not really, I would still take Tatum over Issac.

I might even take Tatum over Fox, considering the way the NBA is more wing dominated now. Plus, I think their is a higher chance a point guard like Frank N or DSJ drops to 10.

In today's NBA, a small forward that is a dominant scorer, like Lebron, Durant, Kawaii, George, Butler, etc. is essential for team success.

Issac would be nice at 10 or if we move up from 10 to get him, but at 5 I think their are way too many question marks, including if he is more a 3 or 4. I just don't see Issac as a dominant scorer in the league. Good 2 way player, but not dominant.

The question (and really it is THE question) around Tatum is whether or not he CAN he be a dominant scorer on the NBA level. If he can then he can be an offensive centerpiece.

But if he can't, and he struggles to be a go-to scorer in the NBA then where does he fit on a roster?

I would guess most people's feelings on Tatum (positive or negative) revolve around their thoughts on his scoring prowess transferring to the NBA.

 

[ParniValjak]

The question (and really it is THE question) around Tatum is whether or not he CAN he be a dominant scorer on the NBA level. If he can then he can be an offensive centerpiece.

But if he can't, and he struggles to be a go-to scorer in the NBA then where does he fit on a roster?

I would guess most people's feelings on Tatum (positive or negative) revolve around their thoughts on his scoring prowess transferring to the NBA.

One thing that I find staggering every year is how these kids are judged as finished products.

Jayson Tatum is 19 years old. He is a hell of a smooth scorer for that age but I am confident in saying that Tatum at 24 will be a lot better player than Tatum at 19. He still has a lot of development to go through and judging by his reported character, work ethic and IQ, I am sure he will be a very very good NBA player. At 19, he is a lot more advanced than a lot of the 24 year old NBA "stars". I look at Tatum at the start of the college season and Tatum at the end of the college season and I see an improved player. I would expect a good amount of improvement to come from him in the next 4-6 years at the NBA level.

 

[funkykingston]

One thing that I find staggering every year is how these kids are judged as finished products.

Jayson Tatum is 19 years old. He is a hell of a smooth scorer for that age but I am confident in saying that Tatum at 24 will be a lot better player than Tatum at 19. He still has a lot of development to go through and judging by his reported character, work ethic and IQ, I am sure he will be a very very good NBA player. At 19, he is a lot more advanced than a lot of the 24 year old NBA "stars". I look at Tatum at the start of the college season and Tatum at the end of the college season and I see an improved player. I would expect a good amount of improvement to come from him in the next 4-6 years at the NBA level.

Of course he'll improve. I never questioned that. But Tatum's game is predicated on being a go-to scorer. He was too quick for most bigs and too big and skilled for most wings. But when he faced guys that were his size and as athletic or more athletic he struggled. Those are the types of guys he'll face every night in the NBA.

It may be that he finds a way to continue to be successful. He improved a lot as the year went along this season. But it could also be the case that he struggles to be a go-to scorer in the NBA. In that case he'll have to find an entirely new niche. He wouldn't be the first successful college scorer who had to learn to do other things in order to stick in the NBA.

FWIW I was at Cal the same time as Shareef Abdur-Rahim and I see a bit of SAR in Tatum's game. Another smooth but not explosive athlete who was successful in the NBA.

 

[ParniValjak]

Of course he'll improve. I never questioned that. But Tatum's game is predicated on being a go-to scorer. He was too quick for most bigs and too big and skilled for most wings. But when he faced guys that were his size and as athletic or more athletic he struggled. Those are the types of guys he'll face every night in the NBA.

It may be that he finds a way to continue to be successful. He improved a lot as the year went along this season. But it could also be the case that he struggles to be a go-to scorer in the NBA. In that case he'll have to find an entirely new niche. He wouldn't be the first successful college scorer who had to learn to do other things in order to stick in the NBA.

FWIW I was at Cal the same time as Shareef Abdur-Rahim and I see a bit of SAR in Tatum's game. Another smooth but not explosive athlete who was successful in the NBA.

Actually that is not a bad comparison at all. SAR was more of a 4 but could play 3 and I see Tatum as a 3 who can play some 4 and will probably spend more time at the 4 towards the end of his career.

In terms of quickness and athleticism, I am not sure Tatum will improve much but I think he can take his already smooth game up a notch to the point where his game is all about skill and moves to get his opponents out of position to create space. Even the fade away jumper at that length would be very difficult to guard.

 

[allrightythen]

Actually that is not a bad comparison at all. SAR was more of a 4 but could play 3 and I see Tatum as a 3 who can play some 4 and will probably spend more time at the 4 towards the end of his career.

In terms of quickness and athleticism, I am not sure Tatum will improve much but I think he can take his already smooth game up a notch to the point where his game is all about skill and moves to get his opponents out of position to create space. Even the fade away jumper at that length would be very difficult to guard.

Tatum is not an explosive athlete but I still think he's a good athlete. He is really long though and while he doesn't appear to be crazy quick he gets to the basket deceptively fast with that length. He'll lay it in before the defender even realizes he's there.

I still prefer Tatum but it's fairly close. One of my pipe-dreams is a trade up from 10 for a Fox and Tatum draft haul.

 

[Jkbiker]

Former Florida State Seminoles forward Jonathan Isaac will not workout for teams picking outside of the top four of the 2017 NBA draft, according to ESPN Minnesota’s Darren Wolfson.


“I know he's worked out for the Phoenix Suns and Boston Celtics,” Wolfson said on the June 12 episode of The Scoop podcast. “I know some teams below the [Minnesota Timberwolves] are trying to get some face time with Isaac. They are swinging and missing so far.

“Jonathan Isaac will only workout for teams in the top four,” he followed in the final five minutes of the June 13 show.

Isaac has worked out with the Suns twice so far, becoming the first prospect to visit a team a second time since workouts began.


The 19-year-old forward averaged 12 points and 7.8 rebounds per game to lead the Seminoles to the second round of the NCAA tournament, where they lost handily to Xavier. He made half his field goal attempts and 35 percent of his threes in his lone season at Florida State before declaring for the NBA draft.

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/14/15800740/jonathan-isaac-nba-draft-workout-rumor-suns-celtics-magic

So if fox is gone , he doesnt want to beat out Tatum at 5 ?

Really?

 

[Blob]

Former Florida State Seminoles forward Jonathan Isaac will not workout for teams picking outside of the top four of the 2017 NBA draft, according to ESPN Minnesota’s Darren Wolfson.


“I know he's worked out for the Phoenix Suns and Boston Celtics,” Wolfson said on the June 12 episode of The Scoop podcast. “I know some teams below the [Minnesota Timberwolves] are trying to get some face time with Isaac. They are swinging and missing so far.

“Jonathan Isaac will only workout for teams in the top four,” he followed in the final five minutes of the June 13 show.

Isaac has worked out with the Suns twice so far, becoming the first prospect to visit a team a second time since workouts began.


The 19-year-old forward averaged 12 points and 7.8 rebounds per game to lead the Seminoles to the second round of the NCAA tournament, where they lost handily to Xavier. He made half his field goal attempts and 35 percent of his threes in his lone season at Florida State before declaring for the NBA draft.

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/14/15800740/jonathan-isaac-nba-draft-workout-rumor-suns-celtics-magic

So if fox is gone , he doesnt want to beat out Tatum at 5 ?

Really?

Unless the Suns promised to take him at #4, which I find a near impossibility with potential of Jackson or Ball falling to #4, Isaac is getting bad advice. Hopefully he reconsiders and visits us or has a "pro day".