Fire Reggie Theus (revisited)!
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SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I don't think it's time to release him yet, but he certainly has to get on board with the idea of rebuilding here. Play the young guys! Why did we get Bibby and Artest out of here if we're trying to win now!?
I think we should revisit this after this next stretch of games too. I'm not concerned with wins and losses as much as I am seeing Hawes/Thompson/Greene/etc. getting time to improve their own games.
I think we should revisit this after this next stretch of games too. I'm not concerned with wins and losses as much as I am seeing Hawes/Thompson/Greene/etc. getting time to improve their own games.
I think that he just needs to get communicated to that his job right now is to get the kids experience and to occasionally highlight one player that they'd like to move out of town.
If he's not on board with that, he needs to go. But its a tragedy for everyone's development if they go through a coaching carousel every season.
If the team isn't actually on board with that as a plan then I think we've got bigger problems then Reggie.
If he's not on board with that, he needs to go. But its a tragedy for everyone's development if they go through a coaching carousel every season.
If the team isn't actually on board with that as a plan then I think we've got bigger problems then Reggie.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
Reggie you were a great player and actor on hangtime. But you are letting your Ego hinder our youths development.
I Voted "Absolutely" for the second time.
Thompson should not be getting his minutes in garbage time.
I Voted "Absolutely" for the second time.
Thompson should not be getting his minutes in garbage time.
Jechtsphere
Starter
I went with yes, Reggie has tested my patience.
kingsnation
All-Star
I voted that I'd like to see him do better but I'm not ready to call for his dismissal....
...but ask me again in a week.
...but ask me again in a week.
royalkingsfan
Prospect
Kingsnation,
I would personally like to disagree with you. If you don't want him to go right now. How would you want him to improve?
I would personally like to disagree with you. If you don't want him to go right now. How would you want him to improve?
kingsnation
All-Star
Playing the young guys more... not playing the vets as much... striking a balance... I'd like to see our 3-point d improve drastically. That's at the top of the list.... etc etc
royalkingsfan
Prospect
Ok and if he doesn't make these changes, how long would you give him?
HighTopKicks
Bench
Excuses: Most games in the NBA for the Month of Noverber
Multiple starters missing games
No more than 1 days rest between games for one month
Multiple back to back games in one week
Force to work rookies into the rotation
Little or no time to practice since preseason
A roster with no stars and multiple bad contracts
Little or no support from the GM and Owners
Worst 3pt shooting team in the league
Failures: Unable to improve turnover rate from last year
Worst 3pt defense in the league
Unable to script successful last second plays
Refusal to admit that Miller & Moore are a defensive liability
I could come up with more for each catagory but in the end the valid excuses would out weight the failures. When he gets Martin & Garcia up to full speed, I'll decide based on his starting lineup at that time. If he still continues to start Moore over Hawes & JT then I'll give up on Theus. Plus by New Years, I need to see the offense run more through Hawes. Jt & Hawes haven't shown that they can perform better as starters, but then Hawes hadn't shown that he could be a defensive presents until he was given the opportunity to play. But, now he's are best defensive Big, so now we need to work with JT and bring him up to speed.
Multiple starters missing games
No more than 1 days rest between games for one month
Multiple back to back games in one week
Force to work rookies into the rotation
Little or no time to practice since preseason
A roster with no stars and multiple bad contracts
Little or no support from the GM and Owners
Worst 3pt shooting team in the league
Failures: Unable to improve turnover rate from last year
Worst 3pt defense in the league
Unable to script successful last second plays
Refusal to admit that Miller & Moore are a defensive liability
I could come up with more for each catagory but in the end the valid excuses would out weight the failures. When he gets Martin & Garcia up to full speed, I'll decide based on his starting lineup at that time. If he still continues to start Moore over Hawes & JT then I'll give up on Theus. Plus by New Years, I need to see the offense run more through Hawes. Jt & Hawes haven't shown that they can perform better as starters, but then Hawes hadn't shown that he could be a defensive presents until he was given the opportunity to play. But, now he's are best defensive Big, so now we need to work with JT and bring him up to speed.
I think you make some valid points BUT our biggest problem, aside from the minutes for the kids, is the abysmal lack of anything even remotely resembling adequate defense for huge chunks of games.
I don't agree with the "No support from the GM and Owners" comment for the simple reason he doesn't automatically garner support, especially after last season. He needs to show that he's on the same page as Petrie and the Maloofs and, from what I see, he's failed to do so.
I think a lot of the frustration being expressed is because we desperately want to see the kids succeed. A lot of us around here have been Kings fans for a very long time. We've survived losing seasons. We just have very little patience when it comes to wasting time and not doing whatever it takes to commit to the future of the franchise. That's where I think Theus is most lacking. He's admitted it himself...He always wants to win. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it's going to lead to inevitable conflicts when it's a choice between giving minutes to the kids or keeping the veterans on the court way too long.
I want Reggie to succeed. I was one of those who was very happy when he was hired. But I do not want him to put his need to win above the needs of Hawes and Thompson, Greene and Brown to build on their skills and be part of the next great Kings team.
MoneyMike916
Bench
I'm leaning towards yes.........
Widowmaker2k
Bench
I think the fundamental flaw with this franchise is a lack of commitment in any direction. If everything had gone perfect for us this season, if every ball had bounced our direction, we may have competed for a playoff spot. More than half of the teams in this league make the playoffs, so what that really says is "we're struggling to be average." For the fans, that's frustrating at best, especially when 2 of our starters are on the downward spiral of their career, and 2 others likely wouldn't even start for a championship contender (Beno, John).
I'm not one of those who likes to see the world in black and white, but in this case, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Right now, Reggie Theus is a part of the problem. I sincerely hope that MSE can recognize that worst possible scenario for this season is riding the vets to a mediocre record, which is exactly what Reggie is trying to do. In that case, we don't get a good draft pick, we don't develop the kids; quite frankly, we don't get any better (in fact we get worse as our vets get older). If Coach Theus can't grasp the fact that some combination Thompson, Hawes, Brown, and Greene need to become very good players for us to have a bright future, and that to become good players they need meaningful playing time (that is outside of garbage time), then he needs to leave, it's as simple as that. To be honest, it's not like they can do much worse than our vets are doing right now.
I think the true problem we have is that the Maloofs should be advertising the Kings as a young and wild team on the rise. A team which, while oozing talent, needs time to gel and mature before they can compete for a championship. This isn't necessarily true, but it's sure going to pack the arena far better than and old team that might have the pleasure of a first round exit. Since actions speak louder than words, all I can ascertain from the owners this season is that they are desperately afraid that losing games will cause a further drop in attendance, and as such, they (and Theus by extension) are simply trying to win as many games as possible (as they have in seasons past). That's terrible shortsightedness, and not how teams get better. If the Maloofs, and Theus, aren't on board with the long term solution, then we as fans are in for a rocky time indeed.
I'm not one of those who likes to see the world in black and white, but in this case, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Right now, Reggie Theus is a part of the problem. I sincerely hope that MSE can recognize that worst possible scenario for this season is riding the vets to a mediocre record, which is exactly what Reggie is trying to do. In that case, we don't get a good draft pick, we don't develop the kids; quite frankly, we don't get any better (in fact we get worse as our vets get older). If Coach Theus can't grasp the fact that some combination Thompson, Hawes, Brown, and Greene need to become very good players for us to have a bright future, and that to become good players they need meaningful playing time (that is outside of garbage time), then he needs to leave, it's as simple as that. To be honest, it's not like they can do much worse than our vets are doing right now.
I think the true problem we have is that the Maloofs should be advertising the Kings as a young and wild team on the rise. A team which, while oozing talent, needs time to gel and mature before they can compete for a championship. This isn't necessarily true, but it's sure going to pack the arena far better than and old team that might have the pleasure of a first round exit. Since actions speak louder than words, all I can ascertain from the owners this season is that they are desperately afraid that losing games will cause a further drop in attendance, and as such, they (and Theus by extension) are simply trying to win as many games as possible (as they have in seasons past). That's terrible shortsightedness, and not how teams get better. If the Maloofs, and Theus, aren't on board with the long term solution, then we as fans are in for a rocky time indeed.
I know you're thinking Reggie is trying to ride the vets to a mediocre record, but I think we all know that right now is proving that nothing like that will work. We're not talented enough or good enough. We have a good young star in KMart, some young guys, and a bunch of has beens/won't be's(Miller/Moore, Beno/John).
I honestly think our best shot at WINNING these games would be to throw Hawes out there as a starter, because he's a way better player than Brad already, and put Cisco out there with Kevin once he comes back. Mikki would be the token vet guy only because JT is a rookie, but he still wouldn't play much.
Either way we're not going to be very good or even mediocre this year and we don't have much of a choice in the matter. We play our vets all game and we still lose by 20.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
The job of a good coach is to fit the pieces he has into a cohesive unit. To find a style of game that fits the players he has. When I watch the young guys on the floor together as a unit, its obvious to me that they're a high energy, up tempo group. They're a little out of control, and they make mistakes as a result. BUT! Their fun to watch.
The starting group of vets, with a sometime token young player ( insert Hawes, Thompson, and Greene ) are mostly a halfcourt group, with the exception of Beno on occasion. Its pass it into Miller and run a pick and roll with Beno or Salmons, with Mikkie running around trying to set screens for anyone he can find. If that doesn't work, its pass it to Salmons and he'll find a way to get a shot of some sort.
Trying to mix the two groups together just isn't working. Thompson, who looks lost at times trying to meld with Miller, Salmons, and Beno, looks like a different player all together when he's on the floor with Hawes, Greene, and Brown. While he looks almost passive at times with one group, he looks like a person on uppers with the other group.
Solving this type of problem requires a good coach. I don't think Reggie is up to the job. I like Reggie, and I was pulling for him. But, I think his lack of experience, and having no one with experience to bounce things off of will be his downfall.
Here's my message Reggie. Take a good look at the young players on your team. See what their strengths are, and develop a style of basketball that allows them to play to their strengths. Take a look at the veterans on the team. See which of them can play the same style and meld them into the offense. Out of that group, find a rotation and stick with it. The players that don't fit, well, let them sit.
The starting group of vets, with a sometime token young player ( insert Hawes, Thompson, and Greene ) are mostly a halfcourt group, with the exception of Beno on occasion. Its pass it into Miller and run a pick and roll with Beno or Salmons, with Mikkie running around trying to set screens for anyone he can find. If that doesn't work, its pass it to Salmons and he'll find a way to get a shot of some sort.
Trying to mix the two groups together just isn't working. Thompson, who looks lost at times trying to meld with Miller, Salmons, and Beno, looks like a different player all together when he's on the floor with Hawes, Greene, and Brown. While he looks almost passive at times with one group, he looks like a person on uppers with the other group.
Solving this type of problem requires a good coach. I don't think Reggie is up to the job. I like Reggie, and I was pulling for him. But, I think his lack of experience, and having no one with experience to bounce things off of will be his downfall.
Here's my message Reggie. Take a good look at the young players on your team. See what their strengths are, and develop a style of basketball that allows them to play to their strengths. Take a look at the veterans on the team. See which of them can play the same style and meld them into the offense. Out of that group, find a rotation and stick with it. The players that don't fit, well, let them sit.
I voted "absolutely."
I think it's beyond just playing the young guys now. It's like the blind (coach) leading the blind (players - both vets and rooks).
Right or wrong, I'm blaming most of the timid, deflated and lackluster play of the rookies on him. What message is he sending them? If you play selfish ball, I will reward you with many minutes. If you are a vet and repeatedly make foolish mistakes, I will still let you play. But if you're a rookie, one mistake and you will be riding the pine. If you play aggressively and show heart and hustle, I will yank you indefinitely if you dare foul someone while protecting the paint.
I am starting to idolize every opponents' head coach now, and that's just...wrong.
In an attempt to end on a positive note, at least the kids are getting garbage time minutes, and can showcase how well they are being coached by playing in control and with a semblence of structure & professionalism.
Well, I guess the best I could do was end on a kind of sarcastic note. This can't be good for my health.
(ohmmm).
I think it's beyond just playing the young guys now. It's like the blind (coach) leading the blind (players - both vets and rooks).
Right or wrong, I'm blaming most of the timid, deflated and lackluster play of the rookies on him. What message is he sending them? If you play selfish ball, I will reward you with many minutes. If you are a vet and repeatedly make foolish mistakes, I will still let you play. But if you're a rookie, one mistake and you will be riding the pine. If you play aggressively and show heart and hustle, I will yank you indefinitely if you dare foul someone while protecting the paint.
I am starting to idolize every opponents' head coach now, and that's just...wrong.
In an attempt to end on a positive note, at least the kids are getting garbage time minutes, and can showcase how well they are being coached by playing in control and with a semblence of structure & professionalism.
Well, I guess the best I could do was end on a kind of sarcastic note. This can't be good for my health.
(ohmmm).
ockingsfan
Starter
Be Careful What You Wish For!!!
everyone has to give reggie a little break for now... his best player, Kevin martin has been out for a few weeks now and he has not had francisco for almost all of the season....don't forget we were 5W and 6L before K mart went down.... let's wait until he has a healthy squad before passing judgement.... he may be more willing to play the kids if he has a lead and k mart is playing, than when he is playing short handed...
also, be very careful for what you wish for, because i can see the maloofs plan now.... lets fire reggie half way through the season and hire john whizinet (spelling?) from the monarchs for the remainder of the year as interim coach.... saying he has a system that will work....the kings may win a few games (because everyone is healthy) and then they sign him on as head coach for the next 3-5 years!!! ....And then maloofs will continue to make every excuse to keep him as head coach, because they love him so much...
everyone has to give reggie a little break for now... his best player, Kevin martin has been out for a few weeks now and he has not had francisco for almost all of the season....don't forget we were 5W and 6L before K mart went down.... let's wait until he has a healthy squad before passing judgement.... he may be more willing to play the kids if he has a lead and k mart is playing, than when he is playing short handed...
also, be very careful for what you wish for, because i can see the maloofs plan now.... lets fire reggie half way through the season and hire john whizinet (spelling?) from the monarchs for the remainder of the year as interim coach.... saying he has a system that will work....the kings may win a few games (because everyone is healthy) and then they sign him on as head coach for the next 3-5 years!!! ....And then maloofs will continue to make every excuse to keep him as head coach, because they love him so much...
ZZE916
Bench
I voted "not yet". Reggie is in a horrible position: Develop the youngsters, but continue to win. Hmmmm. Also there is supposedly an emphasis on defense. There is not an outstanding defender on this team, and we just traded our best defender (and one of the best in the NBA). There are a lot of conflicting objectives for this coach. Ultimately, I think he will be remembered as a placeholder. I will reserve judgement until Martin returns.
Also there is supposedly an emphasis on defense. There is not an outstanding defender on this team, and we just traded our best defender (and one of the best in the NBA). There are a lot of conflicting objectives for this coach. Ultimately, I think he will be remembered as a placeholder. I will reserve judgement until Martin returns.
beb0p
Starter
I honestly don't know why so many are ready to push the panic button now. First of all, I think the worst thing we can do is to change the coach less than 20 games into the season. Talk about creating an unstable environment for the youngsters. Axe the coach, get an interim coach, and then a new coach next season; this means JT, Greene, and Brown would have played for three coaches in less than a year. That simply is not how things should be done. If Theus has completely lost the team a la PJ Carl, then maybe he should be axed, but it isn't the case.
Second, Theus is playing the youngsters and (except for Douby) the young guys are doing quite well. That's the #1 priority for me: to teach the young guys. So why fix something that's not broken? Remember that Theus wanted JT and Brown. The next coach does not have the same afinity for the youngsters and there's no guarantee they won't be casted aside.
And lastly, with KMart out, the Kings sucks, period. No coach is going to turn this group of scrubs and ball hogs into a winner. The Kings is a team who can neither outscore you or stop you from scoring, the only way we managed to win was for Martin to go off and have a big night. So our latest losing streak is not only not surprising, it's fully expected. We simply lost to teams that we're supposed to lose to. And without Martin, and with some new faces, it's only natural for a coach to take some time to adjust. Could Theus have done better, sure. But it's not a deal breaker. Give the guy 82 games and then judge his work.
Second, Theus is playing the youngsters and (except for Douby) the young guys are doing quite well. That's the #1 priority for me: to teach the young guys. So why fix something that's not broken? Remember that Theus wanted JT and Brown. The next coach does not have the same afinity for the youngsters and there's no guarantee they won't be casted aside.
And lastly, with KMart out, the Kings sucks, period. No coach is going to turn this group of scrubs and ball hogs into a winner. The Kings is a team who can neither outscore you or stop you from scoring, the only way we managed to win was for Martin to go off and have a big night. So our latest losing streak is not only not surprising, it's fully expected. We simply lost to teams that we're supposed to lose to. And without Martin, and with some new faces, it's only natural for a coach to take some time to adjust. Could Theus have done better, sure. But it's not a deal breaker. Give the guy 82 games and then judge his work.
You've missed the point. Most of us are NOT talking about winning. We're talking about building for the future. I don't know what stats you've been looking at but Theus HASN'T been utilizing the kids as much as he could. Just as an example, compare Mikki Moore's minutes to Jason Thompson's. Both are power forwards; neither are going to win us games. Thompson is part of our future, while Moore is a recent addition who most likely won't be here past the end of the season.
It's not about winning or losing. If it were, there would be more validity perhaps to your assessment. But, at this point, we desperately need to see Hawes and Thompson getting more time on the court, especially when it's a choice between Mikki Moore and JT.
As far as what/whom Theus wanted, that's irrelevant. Coaches don't pick their players; they do the best with the hands they're dealt.
In conclusion, you're making the assumption that if Theus is let go, we'll go outside to find an interim replacement. There's NO way at all to know if that's true or not. We have a LOT of assistant coaches sitting on the bench - and behind the bench - every night. For all we know, one of them could be temporarily promoted to finish out the year. The kids wouldn't be playing for a new coach. They'd be playing for someone they already know who simply has moved into a bigger office and maybe gets to move up to the front row.
It's not about winning or losing. If it were, there would be more validity perhaps to your assessment. But, at this point, we desperately need to see Hawes and Thompson getting more time on the court, especially when it's a choice between Mikki Moore and JT.
As far as what/whom Theus wanted, that's irrelevant. Coaches don't pick their players; they do the best with the hands they're dealt.
In conclusion, you're making the assumption that if Theus is let go, we'll go outside to find an interim replacement. There's NO way at all to know if that's true or not. We have a LOT of assistant coaches sitting on the bench - and behind the bench - every night. For all we know, one of them could be temporarily promoted to finish out the year. The kids wouldn't be playing for a new coach. They'd be playing for someone they already know who simply has moved into a bigger office and maybe gets to move up to the front row.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
I've been traveling the last few days and haven't been following things closely. Has the team tuned him out? It looks like there's a major leadership problem here, and I'm not sure changing coaches mid-season is the right answer. I'd still like to see what he can do with Martin back, and I'd also like to see Geoff force his hand by shipping out Miller and/or Moore.
Jechtsphere
Starter
It's not only about how he uses the kids but the questionable decisions he makes as a coach and they can get pretty terrible.
LPKingsFan - There are rumblings and problems, but nothing you can put your finger on has hit the media...
The main problem isn't that the team has tuned him out IMHO. The main problem, which was touched on in the game discussion thread from last night, among others, is that he admits he always wants to win and that inevitably leads to him playing the veterans more - especially Miller and Moore - to achieve that objective.
There's no simple answer. If there were there wouldn't be so many disparate views about what should/shouldn't be done.
The main problem isn't that the team has tuned him out IMHO. The main problem, which was touched on in the game discussion thread from last night, among others, is that he admits he always wants to win and that inevitably leads to him playing the veterans more - especially Miller and Moore - to achieve that objective.
There's no simple answer. If there were there wouldn't be so many disparate views about what should/shouldn't be done.
Well, he bungled last season, in that he hardly played the kids at all, and said a lot of dumb stuff which was entirely contrary to the idea of developing and rebuilding. But we tried to give him a little more time, and he did what he should have for the first several weeks of the season. The team didn't look great, but the kids were playing a lot more, and he wasn't saying anything dumb.
Then, just recently, he reverted to giving the lion's share of the minutes to the vets, mostly relegating the kids to garbage time. Add to that bizarre combinations and substitutions, lack of direction/leadership, and little sign that the kids are being helped to overcome their shortcomings, and you have to wonder... WHAT is he doing? He's not winning games, we're getting repeatedly routed while not developing players, and while looking totally disorganized. It's like there's just no plan at all, other than to play the vets.
And that's why people are upset, I think. He's not only reverted, but his coaching just lately seems worse than last year. I'm grateful that he's not saying anything stupid or harmful, but he's coaching as if he'd already given notice, and was just waiting until his time was up. If he has concluded that he's a goner, that might account for it. But, whatever the reason, he needs to start showing us that he's got a plan for making the team better, or give someone else a shot at it. I'd be happy with him if he went back to what he was doing a month ago, but every injured vet that returns to the roster is likely to make the situation worse, not better.
Just pray to Naismith that we don't end up with another regrettable choice.
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