Fire Paul Westphal

[mr. moustache]

Umm, ok. Let's put it this way. Right now, we are loosing game by game and it doesn't look like we're gonna end that streak soon. So if you say that we shouldn't fire PW, it means that this is a process after which we are going to get better? Are we really going to get something out of this losses in the end? I am not saying we won't, just asking..?

Look at Scott Brooks first few years with the sonics/thunder. There are good losses and bad losses. Lakers loss = bad loss. Mavs loss = good loss.

We've had a lot of bad losses. I'd give PW until the end of the season. We're already paying him to do the job. At the end of the year, I think we'll have all the information we need to make a sound decision. The win/loss ratio is more or less meaningless this year. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing the young guys getting better besides possibly Cousins, and he's a rookie.

 

[Superman]

Look at Scott Brooks first few years with the sonics/thunder. There are good losses and bad losses. Lakers loss = bad loss. Mavs loss = good loss.

We've had a lot of bad losses. I'd give PW until the end of the season. We're already paying him to do the job. At the end of the year, I think we'll have all the information we need to make a sound decision. The win/loss ratio is more or less meaningless this year. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing the young guys getting better besides possibly Cousins, and he's a rookie.

I don't think we should fire Westphal right now. But I should point out that the Zombie Sonics only took about three months to start looking respectable under Scotty Brooks, and the next year they won 50 games. Westphal has already missed the Brooks Benchmark in that he's a quarter of the way into his second season and is in the midst of a very unrespectable stretch of losses.

For the sake of continuity, I think no matter how bad this season gets, we keep Westphal through the end, and then we go shopping after this season is over. I just don't think 100 games is long enough to be switching coaches already.

 

[Asaf]

OK, I can understand some of the practical reasons for not firing Westphal - no surefire alternative, his contract, the pending lockout, etc. What I don't understand is how anyone can think he is actually doing a half decent job. I'm not even talking about the fact that our record since January is 15-55. The most important thing for a young team like the Kings is to develop its players. Our young players have all regressed, completely lost their confidence, and are developing bad habits and selfish attitudes due to the lack of anything resembling team play. This is something that may carry over for their entire careers. On top of that, we are developing a losers mentality that has been going on since the 20-5-5 chase became more important than winning games.

People here throw players under the bus for having 2 consecutive bad games and call for them to be benched/traded. I'm not advocating adopting the same attitude towards coaches, but when an entire team is looking this bad for this long, there is no way that the coach doesn't carry the responsibility for that failure. Westphal's performance as a coach is far worse that Hawes's or KT's performances as players ever were, yet some people can still find reasons to keep a guy who performs this poorly at the most important position on a developing team. I just don't get it.

 

[Superman]

OK, I can understand some of the practical reasons for not firing Westphal - no surefire alternative, his contract, the pending lockout, etc. What I don't understand is how anyone can think he is actually doing a half decent job. I'm not even talking about the fact that our record since January is 15-55. The most important thing for a young team like the Kings is to develop its players. Our young players have all regressed, completely lost their confidence, and are developing bad habits and selfish attitudes due to the lack of anything resembling team play. This is something that may carry over for their entire careers. On top of that, we are developing a losers mentality that has been going on since the 20-5-5 chase became more important than winning games.

People here throw players under the bus for having 2 consecutive bad games and call for them to be benched/traded. I'm not advocating adopting the same attitude towards coaches, but when an entire team is looking this bad for this long, there is no way that the coach doesn't carry the responsibility for that failure. Westphal's performance as a coach is far worse that Hawes's or KT's performances as players ever were, yet some people can still find reasons to keep a guy who performs this poorly at the most important position on a developing team. I just don't get it.

Two points:

1) I think the coach's performance is directly related to the players' performance, and while it's true that Westphal's rotations are problematic (I'm being nice), there are certain players who have not contributed at the level they were expected to this season. There have also been injury issues that have held some back. Either way, to say that we're losing a lot of games is true, but it's not entirely the coach's fault, and it never is.

2) My entire assertion that we shouldn't fire Westphal is not a defense of Westphal in and of itself. I'm not saying that we should give him a chance to prove himself, although I do think that firing a coach 100 games into his tenure is counter-productive (most coaches with young teams have a rough go in their first 100 games). I'm saying that, given the history of this team since we fired Adelman, there has been zero chemistry built, zero continuity established... There's no voice on the team, no identity that you can point to and say "that's what the Sacramento Kings are all about." No significant stretch of games where we actually looked like we were starting to come together and get something going. Nothing.

And if you fire Westphal now, you absolutely guarantee that that four or five year stretch of zero consistency continues for the rest of this season. While it's entirely possible that we could find our own Scotty Brooks if we handed the keys over to someone else right now, that's the exception to the rule. You need look no further than Kenny Natt to understand how teams usually play under interim/assistant head coaches when the main guy who ran the training camp and has been trying to stamp his identity on the team is booted after a few games. Natt is the rule.

On the flip side, it's hard to say that we're establishing any continuity when we have a different lineup/rotation every other game. Injuries have necessitated some of the changes, but for the most part, it's just Westphal saying "I think I'll try this tonight," and that's not good. It shows in our play, too. What is entirely possible, though, is that we could be looking at the makings of a set lineup/rotation that will begin to be established after a few games. We're only 18 games into this season, and about half the team is new. There's a learning curve there. Not defending Westphal's haphazard rotations, just wondering aloud if he's going to settle on something eventually.

 

[est.1999]

People who are calling for Westphal's head are doing so because his rotations are terrible and his line ups blow. It's not because we're losing, it's because of things like benching Greene after he scores 19 Pts in the first half. I'm losing my patience.

 

[Asaf]

Two points:

1) I think the coach's performance is directly related to the players' performance, and while it's true that Westphal's rotations are problematic (I'm being nice), there are certain players who have not contributed at the level they were expected to this season. There have also been injury issues that have held some back. Either way, to say that we're losing a lot of games is true, but it's not entirely the coach's fault, and it never is.

2) My entire assertion that we shouldn't fire Westphal is not a defense of Westphal in and of itself. I'm not saying that we should give him a chance to prove himself, although I do think that firing a coach 100 games into his tenure is counter-productive (most coaches with young teams have a rough go in their first 100 games). I'm saying that, given the history of this team since we fired Adelman, there has been zero chemistry built, zero continuity established... There's no voice on the team, no identity that you can point to and say "that's what the Sacramento Kings are all about." No significant stretch of games where we actually looked like we were starting to come together and get something going. Nothing.

And if you fire Westphal now, you absolutely guarantee that that four or five year stretch of zero consistency continues for the rest of this season. While it's entirely possible that we could find our own Scotty Brooks if we handed the keys over to someone else right now, that's the exception to the rule. You need look no further than Kenny Natt to understand how teams usually play under interim/assistant head coaches when the main guy who ran the training camp and has been trying to stamp his identity on the team is booted after a few games. Natt is the rule.

On the flip side, it's hard to say that we're establishing any continuity when we have a different lineup/rotation every other game. Injuries have necessitated some of the changes, but for the most part, it's just Westphal saying "I think I'll try this tonight," and that's not good. It shows in our play, too. What is entirely possible, though, is that we could be looking at the makings of a set lineup/rotation that will begin to be established after a few games. We're only 18 games into this season, and about half the team is new. There's a learning curve there. Not defending Westphal's haphazard rotations, just wondering aloud if he's going to settle on something eventually.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - if one or two players underperform you can put the blame on them. If the entire team seams to regress to D-League level, you have to blame the coach. And it's not a big mystery. Anyone can see that Westphal's jerking around of players between being starters to DNP's, playing them out of position, and applying double standards in treatment of different players, is causing them to regress. I usually give the coach the benefit of the doubt, because I realize that we never know what really goes on behind the scenes, but when SO MUCH of what he does just doesn't make sense, I have to question his decision-making abilities. It seems like he likes to always go with the solution that makes the least sense. I can accept that from time to time, but you can't do it EVERY FRICKING TIME. Sometimes the answer is pretty obvious. You want JT to produce? Don't play him at SF ffs. You want to find the best combination to help you win? You certainly aren't going to find it in one game. Choose a combination and stick with it for 20 games. You are not a good coach if "you've seen enough" after two games, and you don't give your players a chance to establish some kind of continuity and consistency.

Someone mentioned here that our good start to last year was with a relatively consistant lineup of Tyreke, Beno, Casspi, JT, and Hawes. Here's an idea - why doesn't PW try to use this lineup (with cousins replacing Hawes) for 20 games and see how it goes? Greene can be the starter at SF if he wants, but he and Omri should be getting the bulk of minutes at that spot, with Cisco playing mostly SG and getting spot minutes at the 3. No JT or Landry at the 3 - these guys are both PF, with JT being able to play some Center. Head, Cisco, Greene/Casspi, Dally, and Landry come off the bench. Simple, right? That's pretty much what most people on here said they wanted, and it's the lineup that makes the most sense, yet Westphal doesn't seem to want to even try out the obvious. If he keeps this up we can sign him for a 10-year contract and at the end of those 10 years we will still have no chemistry or continuity, just a bunch of confused players wondering how all the talent they displayed prior to coming to Sacramento has magically disappeared for a decade.

 

[nickmcclure]

Another loss
bump

 

[sacfun]

fire him and the soon is the better

fire him and the soon is the better...please
i wont buy tickets any more

 

[Superman]

If he keeps this up we can sign him for a 10-year contract and at the end of those 10 years we will still have no chemistry or continuity, just a bunch of confused players wondering how all the talent they displayed prior to coming to Sacramento has magically disappeared for a decade.

I'm not saying keeping Westphal necessarily contributes to continuity. I'm saying firing him almost promises you a continued lack thereof. Just ride it out with him this season, and then we fire him at the end of the year and hire a good coach.

 

[juicij36]

"I'm saying that, given the history of this team since we fired Adelman, there has been zero chemistry built, zero continuity established... There's no voice on the team, no identity that you can point to and say "that's what the Sacramento Kings are all about."

word.

 

[gunks]

I imagine the lively debate can continue in this thread after our teams latest meltdown

 

[nickmcclure]

I imagine the lively debate can continue in this thread after our teams latest meltdown

Beat me to it.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I imagine the lively debate can continue in this thread after our teams latest meltdown

This one isn't on the coach. Anyone who puts tonight's loss all on Westphal is just being reactionary and looking for a scapegoat. Coaches don't blow 23 point leads in the 3rd and 4th quarters, players do.

 

[gunks]

I actually missed the game, but I saw a lot of Westphal hate in the thread, so I figured a bump here might be appreciated.


And while I dont disagree with you in that the coach often gets a lion's share of the blame, in the games I have been able to watch this season, I feel that Westphal did deserve that blame. His rotations are bizzare, and this team seems to lack any idea of whats going on on either side of the ball.

Then again word is we were playing well in the first half, so I suppose this recent loss could be chaulked up to youthful inexperience/cracking under pressure.

 

[nickmcclure]

This one isn't on the coach. Anyone who puts tonight's loss all on Westphal is just being reactionary and looking for a scapegoat. Coaches don't blow 23 point leads in the 3rd and 4th quarters, players do.

You gotta ask yourself how we lost that 23 point and why did Westphal keep playing the same players that continued to give the game away

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You gotta ask yourself how we lost that 23 point and why did Westphal keep playing the same players that continued to give the game away

And had he changed lineups and they still lost, people would ask why he didn't stick with the other lineup. You can question lineups all you want but a 23 point blown lead fall mostly on the shoulders of the players.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm not ready to fire Westphal. But as I'm sitting here watching the Por/Dal game, I can't help but think how great a year or two of Hubie Brown would be for this team. A very good teacher of the game. Turned J Wills career around.

 

[gunks]

We can definately use a teacher here. I dont think Westphal is the right guy to develop the youth.

Last year he gave waaaaaaay too much freedom to Reke, which retards our star's progress as a player (some of that might be on the FO pushing the 20/5/5 thing), this season he has Cuz on a pretty short leash (sometimes, not tonight obviously).

We arnt seeing ANY progress from our other youngsters either. Omri and Greene seem to be the same, if not worse. JT was definately looking worse, until Westphal realized he was actually a better player than D-Block, and started giving him minutes.

The entire team culture is crap right now. A lot of that is lack of experience. We need a vet or two on this roster. But we also need a leader, the coach should be that leader. Westphal isnt.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

One thing that all the people calling for the coach's head need to consider. Good players can win with a bad coach but a good coach can't win with bad players. The importance of coaching, in all sports, is overrated. Now before anyone has a coronary, I'm not saying that coaching isn't important, it is. It's just not as important as many think it is.

If anyone really believes that The Kings would be a significantly better team under a different coach I think they're delusional. Coaching only takes you so far. The best coach in the world still can't get blood out of a turnip. Westphal is what, the 5th Kings' coach in as many years and fans are ready to run him out of town just like the last 4 coaches. You’d think at some point people (and Kings’ management) would realize that coaches aren’t the reason why the team stinks.

Until The Kings either develop a few all star caliber players, or sign or trade for some, they will never be any good regardless of who the coach is. Any team worth their salt has at least 2, and in many cases 3 or more all star caliber players. The Kings, have zero. That’s the problem, not Paul Westphal.

 

[PurpleHaze]

And had he changed lineups and they still lost, people would ask why he didn't stick with the other lineup. You can question lineups all you want but a 23 point blown lead fall mostly on the shoulders of the players.

Exactly right. But that traveling by WESTPHAL with less than a minute to go was seal the deal back breaker for the Kings - on top of all the other traveling and assorted turnovers he drew up as game got crunch time intense.

 

[gunks]

Its both.

I'm not expecting us to suddenly be a playoff team with a new coach. But I do expect a bit of improvement. I had us pegged for 35 wins prior to this season. I still see us as having 35 win talent. If we stick with Westphal, we're probably getting no more than 20. Hypothetically, say we land a brilliant coach (PJ, Pop, Sloan), I still think we wont win more than 35.

Its not just that we're losing, it is HOW we are losing. There is just an aura of discombobulation about our players that is universal. And that is on the coach. Granted, it doesnt help that we might have one of the lowest BBIQ teams in the league (as has been mentioned), but still....I dont think a better coach would give up a 23 point second half lead like that.

 

[Asaf]

One thing that all the people calling for the coach's head need to consider. Good players can win with a bad coach but a good coach can't win with bad players. The importance of coaching, in all sports, is overrated. Now before anyone has a coronary, I'm not saying that coaching isn't important, it is. It's just not as important as many think it is.

If anyone really believes that The Kings would be a significantly better team under a different coach I think they're delusional. Coaching only takes you so far. The best coach in the world still can't get blood out of a turnip. Westphal is what, the 5th Kings' coach in as many years and fans are ready to run him out of town just like the last 4 coaches. You’d think at some point people (and Kings’ management) would realize that coaches aren’t the reason why the team stinks.

Until The Kings either develop a few all star caliber players, or sign or trade for some, they will never be any good regardless of who the coach is. Any team worth their salt has at least 2, and in many cases 3 or more all star caliber players. The Kings, have zero. That’s the problem, not Paul Westphal.

Young teams with players who need to develop in order to fulfill their potential con't win with a bad coach. They need a teacher, and PW is not a teacher. If he is, he is definitely one of the worst I've encountered.

And when you look at the teams who won championships in the last 30 years, I don't believe that your first paragraph holds water. Phil Jackson, Popovich, Riley, Rivers, LB, those are all REALLY good coaches, and there is no doubt as to the impact they made on their team. Neither Jordan nor Kobe won a ring without Phil Jackson, that should tell you a lot.

 

[PurpleHaze]

I'm not ready to fire Westphal. But as I'm sitting here watching the Por/Dal game, I can't help but think how great a year or two of Hubie Brown would be for this team. A very good teacher of the game. Turned J Wills career around.

Hubie Brown abruptly resigned his last head coaching position with Memphis a couple of years ago due to an undisclosed medical condition. He has since said he will never coach competitive basketball again. A great coach and teacher of basketball, he'll turn 78 next year.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Its both.

I'm not expecting us to suddenly be a playoff team with a new coach. But I do expect a bit of improvement. I had us pegged for 35 wins prior to this season. I still see us as having 35 win talent. If we stick with Westphal, we're probably getting no more than 20. Hypothetically, say we land a brilliant coach (PJ, Pop, Sloan), I still think we wont win more than 35.

Its not just that we're losing, it is HOW we are losing. There is just an aura of discombobulation about our players that is universal. And that is on the coach. Granted, it doesnt help that we might have one of the lowest BBIQ teams in the league (as has been mentioned), but still....I dont think a better coach would give up a 23 point second half lead like that.

The Coach didn't give up the lead. The players did. A coach isn't going to cause the players to suddenly collectively meltdown. There's only so much a coach can do when his players seem hell bent of finding a way to lose.

 

[Asaf]

Exactly right. But that traveling by WESTPHAL with less than a minute to go was seal the deal back breaker for the Kings - on top of all the other traveling and assorted turnovers he drew up as game got crunch time intense.

The dissatisfaction with Westphal does not stem from just one game, so it's silly to portray it as if people want to fire him because of a random traveling violation. But when a team doesn't have coherent plays, when players don't know what they are supposed to do on the court, they will be much more likely to make dumb mistakes and turn the ball over, and that is on the coach. No, the coach did not travel, and he didn't throw the ball away, but had he done his job and designed an offense in which people knew what they were supposed to do, and played certain lineups consistently enough for them to learn how to play with each other, maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't have put themselves in a position to make these mistakes.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

There is just an aura of discombobulation about our players that is universal. And that is on the coach. .

That's like blaming a teacher for the kids not learning anything when the reality is the kids in the class just aren't that smart.

 

[Asaf]

The Coach didn't give up the lead. The players did. A coach isn't going to cause the players to suddenly collectively meltdown. There's only so much a coach can do when his players seem hell bent of finding a way to lose.

What exactly is your definition of the coach's job? What is his responsibility? What are the positives that you see in what Westphal is doing with this team? I honestly can't see any.

 

[gunks]

Hubie Brown abruptly resigned his last head coaching position with Memphis a couple of years ago due to an undisclosed medical condition. He has since said he will never coach competitive basketball again. A great coach and teacher of basketball, he'll turn 78 next year.

Ah well, so much for Hubie. 78 is pretty old to be a head coach anyways. I'd be worrying about his heart constantly.

I think teacher should be the prerequisite for our next coach. We're young, so we arnt going to win...But we can at least lose the right way (and learn something from it, not just dick around with lineup changes).

We have Coachie, and he's a good teacher....I just dont know if I like what he's teaching (He wanted to help JT become a better 3pt shooter for example)...Not that I'm recommending Coachie for HC

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

And when you look at the teams who won championships in the last 30 years, I don't believe that your first paragraph holds water. .

You don't have to win championships to be a good team. You know who one good team was that never won a championship? The Barkley Suns. And.....who coached them?

 

[Asaf]

That's like blaming a teacher for the kids not learning anything when the reality is the kids in the class just aren't that smart.

What if the teacher sucks at communicating the material to the kids? What if he can't motivate the kids to want to learn? And what is the statistical probablility that every single kid in the class is simply stupid? (and may I remind you that in the case of our kids, they were "smart" enough to make it to the NBA, one of them won the ROY, another was a leading candidate for the 6th man award, a third was the #5 pick in the draft and was considered the second best talent in that draft, and a fourth is one of the league's best shotblockers and rebounders)