Fire Paul Westphal
- Thread starter TheWileyVet
- Start date
Fear the Putin
Starter
there is no discipline on this team
He should be hounding them in practice and on the floor for the lackluster defense, not getting back AT ALL during fastbreaks and drilling them to make free throws during practice.
We look like a bunch of Shaq's at the free throw line for crying out loud.
He should be hounding them in practice and on the floor for the lackluster defense, not getting back AT ALL during fastbreaks and drilling them to make free throws during practice.
We look like a bunch of Shaq's at the free throw line for crying out loud.
TehSwimGuy
Bench
Yup. It's painful watching Reke and the backcourt walking back with Bulls players running back and dunking on transition D. It's pathetic.
That is the truth..it is time for a change at coach.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Here's a quote from the Bee, regarding the type of offense we run, for those who might not be aware it's based on reading the defense, and not set plays, which I prefer for a young team.
I've been saying for well over a year now, that with such an inexperienced team, we need more structure. We need a focal point, such as Cousins on the block, and much more movement, cutters, and screens both on the ball and off the set up shooters.
Instead, we're running basically a freelance offense, with the youngest team in the league, where instead of having a more set offense where they know where the other guys will be, it seems no one is on the same page. That is why players such as Reke and Cousins are largely not being used correctly.
With such a young team, and decisions based on reads, not set plays, the decisions more often than not won't be the correct ones. I'd like to hope this all works itself out, but Reke looks more uncomfortable than ever, he and Cousins aren't being used correctly, and a large portion of that blame has to go to Westy. In year 3, Westy can't still be making the same excuse that our guys are still learning how to make the correct reads, while they looks more confused than ever, and aren't being played to their strengths.
He either needs to greatly speed up their decisions making process, which he hasn't, or needs a more structured system, which appears beyond him. The coach needs to TEACH these guys where to be, and how to play to their strengths, not just sit back and use the excuse of their young, and have to figure it out on their own.
Two great coaches, in Sloan and Pop, constantly run set plays with far more veteran teams. Parker had to learn in a structured setting before being given free reign. He didn't simply let Parker freelance, and not get the ball to Duncan, to allow him to "figure it out" on his own. No, he drilled it into his head. Later came the freedom.
Oh, and I'll add that this criticism isn't based on the first 3 games this year. It's based on Westy's entire tenure here, where I haven't seen any improvement.
I've been saying for well over a year now, that with such an inexperienced team, we need more structure. We need a focal point, such as Cousins on the block, and much more movement, cutters, and screens both on the ball and off the set up shooters.
Instead, we're running basically a freelance offense, with the youngest team in the league, where instead of having a more set offense where they know where the other guys will be, it seems no one is on the same page. That is why players such as Reke and Cousins are largely not being used correctly.
With such a young team, and decisions based on reads, not set plays, the decisions more often than not won't be the correct ones. I'd like to hope this all works itself out, but Reke looks more uncomfortable than ever, he and Cousins aren't being used correctly, and a large portion of that blame has to go to Westy. In year 3, Westy can't still be making the same excuse that our guys are still learning how to make the correct reads, while they looks more confused than ever, and aren't being played to their strengths.
He either needs to greatly speed up their decisions making process, which he hasn't, or needs a more structured system, which appears beyond him. The coach needs to TEACH these guys where to be, and how to play to their strengths, not just sit back and use the excuse of their young, and have to figure it out on their own.
Two great coaches, in Sloan and Pop, constantly run set plays with far more veteran teams. Parker had to learn in a structured setting before being given free reign. He didn't simply let Parker freelance, and not get the ball to Duncan, to allow him to "figure it out" on his own. No, he drilled it into his head. Later came the freedom.
Oh, and I'll add that this criticism isn't based on the first 3 games this year. It's based on Westy's entire tenure here, where I haven't seen any improvement.
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Glenn
Hall of Famer
This makes the complaint that Salmons is a black hole seem a bit shallow. If it is Salmons' instruction to read the defense and act accordingly, he will take the shot. He IS a good one on one player so what should he do given there is no structured play? Can't believe I am defending Salmons frankly but we are seeing the result of what seems to my mind a misguided bit of coaching.
BTW, does anyone know why there was such a big turnover in assistent coaches?
BTW, does anyone know why there was such a big turnover in assistent coaches?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I don't know, I see his point. It is going to be ugly early but it could indeed have benefits long term and I think it speaks to his confidence in the individual talents of each player. With that said, there has to be at least a few set plays to go to when needed. I'm sure there are I just hope it's not that dribble, dribble, drive stuff we're seeing.
Fear the Putin
Starter
I may understand a freelance team with say a point guard who can run an offense and distribute, but when you have a bunch of guys who are 1 on 1 players how on earth can you have a freelance system?
You know our missing free throw problems are starting to resemble terrible stretches that we went through last season when we would shoot them in the 50 or 60% range. After some games, in front of no one other than my wife looking on, I would stand on my soapbox raise my right hand upward index finger extended and go into my “if I was the coach rant”. If I was the coach, I would have every player shoot 100 free throws every day [maybe, they're already doing this]. If I was the coach, I would find players $100 for every missed free throw. Aw yes, I do tend to have quick and simple solutions coming off the couch. For some reason free throws have always seemed to be the Kings nemesis. I hate to bring up old wounds but back during the Western Conference playoffs with the Lakers we lost a game[the Robert Horry shot was another game], because we couldn't make a free throw down the stretch. Anyways, our young team has a lot of issues to deal with and this one may not be at the top the list, but it's pretty close. Hey, why not hire Doug Christie as a free throw coach. That would leave Bobby Jackson and the other coaches to concentrate on defense, rebounding and the X and O’s?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No, this is true. If you have a read and react offense in place, and you have a bunch of young players with superior 1 on 1 skills (not to mention old ones like Salmons), what exactly do you expect they are going to read except, ooh, he turned his hips, I'm going in!
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
We need more structure, and set plays, to get our 1 v 1 guys in a position to attack successfully. You're right, and it's not the least bit surprising, that scorers see opportunities to attack much more frequently then to create for others.
At least run plays where we can get our attacking players in a position to do exactly that, attack. Why not clear out on side of the floor, and let Reke/COusins, or Thorton/Cousins work the two man game? And that's one example of many, which I'm not seeing. We're just passing it around for 15+ secs, and then someone gets stuck having to go one v one with 5 secs on the shotclock.
fansinceday1
Starter
This is the main problem. A good coach will turn around a good team and IMO I think we have a really good young team that desperately needs some structure.
How many of us here can see the current ownership doing what The Yorks did, courting and dishing out millions and millions of dollars for Harbaugh? The Yorks went after Harbaugh and they didn't spare any expense. This is not our current ownership. If PW is fired you can bet your arse that they will bring in another stop gap.
IfAt1st
Starter
Great points.
IF Westphal's "system" isn't working, in year 3 of the free-form experiment, you have to conclude that the players he has are incapable of running that kind of deciding-on-the-fly offense.
The next logical step would be to make the decision to go a different direction - either implement a more rigid form of offense with set plays, or to get someone else in to do it.
Who's going to make that call?
The Maloofs can't really meddle in the basketball operations in this critical year with potential Moving Vote coming up.
Petrie is notoriously supportive of his coaches, and I don't think he'd meddle with Westphal's overarching plan.
Who calls Westphal out if and when it's determined that his experiment has failed?
IfAt1st
Starter
BTW - can anyone make a list of what coaches the Kings did not get by choosing to hire and retain Westphal, as well as Musselman, Natt, and Theus?
I remember:
Scott Brooks (now with OKC, successful)
Tom Thibodeu (now with Chicago, successful)
Stan Van Gundy (now with the Magic, successful)
Byron Scott (Cavs, unsuccessful)
Jerry Sloan (retired?)
I remember:
Scott Brooks (now with OKC, successful)
Tom Thibodeu (now with Chicago, successful)
Stan Van Gundy (now with the Magic, successful)
Byron Scott (Cavs, unsuccessful)
Jerry Sloan (retired?)
Entity
Hall of Famer
It's funny you list the coaches as successful. All three teams have three if the best players to get drafted in recent years and the one
Unsuccessful coach is the one that lost its super star. I am no knocking the coaches but they get a lot of credit when most cases it's the players. Put doc rivers with Toronto and I bet he isn't considered one of the best.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
This isn't year 3! He barely started to instill this type of system after the trade for Thornton. Before then it was a completely mess of 1 on 1 play and that was the intention. Crash the glass while being way out of position and also taking horrible shots with 15 seconds left on the shot clock.
Section 101
All-Star
Lol, this is too funny. You dont remember the whole Van Gundy thing? There were about to hire him and the Magic faxed the contract while he was here.
Yes they screwed up with Brooks and possibly Thibodeu. If I recall correctly he withdrew from consideration to stay with the Celtics.
ParniValjak
All-Star
The problem with fans is that they judge the coaches on win and loss records and not on their actual coaching. People forget that Rivers was a bee's proverbial from getting fired before Ainge got him the big 3 and all of a sudden he is one of the best.
I never considered Mike Brown to be a good coach despite his great win-loss percentage. His teams won because he had arguably the best player in the league in James. Good coaches need to be looked at in the way they coach and how they get the best out of their team.
A young team like the Kings needs a coach who knows when to take control and call out plays and when to let them play through it. A coach that will give this young team some structure both offensive and defensive. We have no structure. Its a free-styling at both ends. I have said many times last year that Westphal's option should not have been picked up and we should go after Adelman. Just imagine what sort of offensive sets he could implement with this group of players?! He would utilise his best passers in Cousins and Hayes, he would utilise Cousins' post game. He would utilise Tyreke's driving ability. He would utilise Thornton's shooting and driving ability. He would make this team run its offence like a well oiled machine.
Of course that was never going to happen because a) our owners would never get Adelman back since they burnt their bridges there, b) after Mussleman, Theus and Kenny Who, Westphal looks like Phil Jackson, and c) probably most importantly as Glenn pointed out, they can't afford to pay a great coach the market price....they are broke! They can't afford to pay a great coach $5-10 million per seasons when they can have Westphal for 3 years at some $5 million in total.
We have gone on the cheap this FA period as well. In order for us to get a real coach, the Maloofs either have to get super rich super fast, or we need new owners that are willing to spend to build a genuine winner.
After watching Westphal's comments after the Chicago game, I am stunned how he has lasted this long. Players going for offensive rebounds when they had no business to do so?! WTF?!?! Then why go out and recruit players that excel at offensive rebounds!?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
The problem with fans is that they judge the coaches on win and loss records and not on their actual coaching. People forget that Rivers was a bee's proverbial from getting fired before Ainge got him the big 3 and all of a sudden he is one of the best.
I never considered Mike Brown to be a good coach despite his great win-loss percentage. His teams won because he had arguably the best player in the league in James. Good coaches need to be looked at in the way they coach and how they get the best out of their team.
A young team like the Kings needs a coach who knows when to take control and call out plays and when to let them play through it. A coach that will give this young team some structure both offensive and defensive. We have no structure. Its a free-styling at both ends. I have said many times last year that Westphal's option should not have been picked up and we should go after Adelman. Just imagine what sort of offensive sets he could implement with this group of players?! He would utilise his best passers in Cousins and Hayes, he would utilise Cousins' post game. He would utilise Tyreke's driving ability. He would utilise Thornton's shooting and driving ability. He would make this team run its offence like a well oiled machine.
Of course that was never going to happen because a) our owners would never get Adelman back since they burnt their bridges there, b) after Mussleman, Theus and Kenny Who, Westphal looks like Phil Jackson, and c) probably most importantly as Glenn pointed out, they can't afford to pay a great coach the market price....they are broke! They can't afford to pay a great coach $5-10 million per seasons when they can have Westphal for 3 years at some $5 million in total.
We have gone on the cheap this FA period as well. In order for us to get a real coach, the Maloofs either have to get super rich super fast, or we need new owners that are willing to spend to build a genuine winner.
After watching Westphal's comments after the Chicago game, I am stunned how he has lasted this long. Players going for offensive rebounds when they had no business to do so?! WTF?!?! Then why go out and recruit players that excel at offensive rebounds!?
At this stage they shouldn't judge Westphal on wins and losses, no way, not fair. They should be judging him like I did after the Blazers game. Passing team? Running plays through your bigs? Well, 13 assists a game and a combined total of 0 from your bigs in the Portland game kind of looks like utter failure, and it is. It's all about how you respond and last night was a step in the right direction. But don't do things like talk about chemistry and using a reactionary offense based on TIMING and then run everybody and their grandmothers into the game at 5 minute intervals. Great way to ensure there is NEVER going to be chemistry.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
shaq was unguardable. he'd have the opposing team draped on him and he'd still be able to dunk
IfAt1st
Starter
Yeah, I remember that they tried to get Van Gundy.
I never said they didn't try - I said they didn't get - for whatever reason or another.
And Entity, et al -
talk about straw men - since when is anybody expecting or asking for championships from the post-Adelman Kings coaches?
They're asking for some semblance of an offensive and defensive system that is likely to work in the NBA, with this personnel (remember they've had 2+ years to get the personnel that could run it).
They're asking for reliable offensive plays like most other teams run (pick-and-rolls and screens).
Did you see DMC's comments after this past game?
He said "I don't know what's going on with the offense" (why it takes so long to get started)
We don't have years for this group to become smart enough to make this free-form, player-decision system to work.
Krunker
Northernmost Kings Fan
Thibodeau only dropped out after it was clear he was the third choice behind Rambis and Westphal.
That's not what you said. This is what you said:
And, of course, the Kings did not choose any of the above guys over SVG.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Ask Doc Rivers exact same - way under .500 until he got not one big time star but THREE.
Section 101
All-Star
So by your standards if we kept Kenny Natt we would be a playoff team now.
IfAt1st
Starter
Yeah, I guess you're right - my wording, as general and encompassing as it was for the sake of brevity, did specify that the Kings chose Theus over Van Gundy. I should have added "ending up choosing" or something, though that likely wouldn't have been specific enough to survive precise reading analysis, either.
Congratulations - you win the internet.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
You'll have to explain that one unless it's just some sarcasm I don't get. Pierce was a superstar or near superstar at the time but he was all alone until along came Allen and then Garnett - making three superstars or near ones. Suddenly Rivers who was winning a dismal 25 games or so each season was winning 50 plus and contending for and winning a championship. Kings have absolutely nothing like that now nor had anything even close to that since CWebb and his crew and even then not quite, not quite enough for NBA championship.
