Farewell Tyreke?

[Sac.Kings]

If we S&T for Vasquez and Lopez, can we trade them for other FAs right away?

I don't think so. I think you have to wait at least 3 months

 

[Spike]

Vasquez is only being shopped because guess what? they now have an All-Star pg in Holiday, and he's only 23 as well. Vasquez was one of the better pg's in the league last year, high basketball IQ, great understanding of the game. Basically Rubio type, with better shooting, worse defense.

Again, you show your hand.

 

[Showtime]

you totally dont understand what you are talking and what you see.

according on 82games

11-12
Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 22.7 .444 6.7 18% 5.9 10.9 6.7 .0 3.4 24.4 15.6
SG 19.5 .535 3.3 23% 5.7 3.8 2.5 .4 2.3 23.5 16.3
SF 15.8 .573 2.6 30% 6.8 4.6 2.9 .8 3.4 20.3 16.8

12-13
Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 20.9 .000 15.6 25% 5.2 10.4 2.6 2.6 .0 15.6 10.0
SG 18.1 .522 4.3 22% 5.5 5.7 2.5 .8 3.0 22.1 16.9
SF 16.5 .491 4.2 23% 7.7 4.0 2.8 1.2 3.9 19.8 15.0

hasn't improved defense????

Correct. I don't even think you understand what you are posting there. His opponents production pretty much stayed the same or improved in some areas save for points at the PG position, where it so happens his opponent's blocks, and turnovers actually improved. And considering he played less time at point this season than any season of his career, it doesn't say much.

According to 82games:

2012 53% played (most) at off guard with a defensive rating of 103.1
2013 38% played (most) at off guard with a defensive rating of 103.2

He's rebounded at basically the same rate despite playing various positions last season, steals and blocks are almost identical averages. He's an average defender who hasn't really made progress in that area of his game.

according to Basketball-Reference.com

season 3P%
09-10 .255
10-11 .291
11-12 .202
12-13 .338

hasn't improved shot??????

His 3pt efficiency improved this last season, but his shot hasn't, as in: it is still too inconsistent to use as a reliable weapon on the floor. He will hesitate to shoot, and often forces his dribble dive instead of taking a jumper. He doesn't look to create a jumper when attacking. When he does, its often a poor choice. Most of his shots from 3pt range were when he was wide open. This doesn't show an improvement from his standpoint, rather a benefit from having more talented teammates this season than in the previous two. His midrange game still has a ton of way to go, and he hasn't shown me any progress in that area.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201936&viewShots=false&Season=2012-13

Rk Player Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
1 Tony Parker 2012-13 30 SAS NBA 66 66 32.9 7.9 15.1 0.4 1.0 4.2 5.0 0.3 2.7 3.0 7.6 0.8 0.1 2.6 1.4 20.3 .522 .353 .845
2 Dwyane Wade 2012-13 31 MIA NBA 69 69 34.7 8.2 15.8 0.2 1.0 4.5 6.2 1.2 3.7 5.0 5.1 1.9 0.8 2.8 2.0 21.2 .521 .258 .725
3 Chris Paul 2012-13 27 LAC NBA 70 70 33.4 5.9 12.2 1.1 3.3 4.1 4.6 0.8 3.0 3.7 9.7 2.4 0.1 2.3 2.0 16.9 .481 .328 .885
4 Tyreke Evans 2012-13 23 SAC NBA 65 61 31.0 5.6 11.8 0.7 2.0 3.2 4.2 0.9 3.6 4.4 3.5 1.4 0.4 2.0 2.0 15.2 .478 .338 .775
5 Kobe Bryant 2012-13 34 LAL NBA 78 78 38.6 9.5 20.4 1.7 5.2 6.7 8.0 0.8 4.7 5.6 6.0 1.4 0.3 3.7 2.2 27.3 .463 .324 .839
6 Ty Lawson 2012-13 25 DEN NBA 73 71 34.4 6.1 13.3 1.2 3.2 3.2 4.3 0.5 2.2 2.7 6.9 1.5 0.1 2.5 1.8 16.7 .461 .366 .756
7 Jarrett Jack 2012-13 29 GSW NBA 79 4 29.7 4.9 10.8 1.0 2.6 2.1 2.5 0.3 2.8 3.1 5.6 0.8 0.1 2.0 1.7 12.9 .452 .404 .843
8 Stephen Curry 2012-13 24 GSW NBA 78 78 38.2 8.0 17.8 3.5 7.7 3.4 3.7 0.8 3.3 4.0 6.9 1.6 0.2 3.1 2.5 22.9 .451 .453 .900
9 Andre Iguodala 2012-13 29 DEN NBA 80 80 34.7 5.0 11.0 1.1 3.6 1.9 3.4 1.0 4.3 5.3 5.4 1.7 0.7 2.6 1.6 13.0 .451 .317 .574

regress offensely ????

can't play w/o dominating the ball??? do we see the same league???

reke is one of top guards in the league, period.

- lower passer rating and worse ast/48 ratio over the past two years. He is a drive first, second, and third type player who "dumps" off when his drive or scoring attempt fails. He isn't the playmaker many here believe him to be, and he hasn't evolved his game.

- almost had the same amount of offensive fouls despite not handling the ball as much at the point. When he looks to score, he's a bulldozer to the rim and not much else, and this creates problems.

- all of those players you just listed made their teams playoff teams. Tyreke actually disappeared more when his teammates got more talented on a LOTTERY squad. He is not a franchise player, and most of those players are that or close to it except for J Jack and maybe Lawson, but nobody here would be making the argument that J Jack or Lawson is as good as Tyreke. Hmmmm.


Again, this is more about his play style and decision making which have NOT improved. His strengths are still the same strengths, and his weaknesses the same weaknesses since day one. I was one who argued for Evans for ROY against Curry because I believed he was and would remain the superior talent. But Curry has improved, and Evans has regressed or stayed stagnant in most areas of his game, and that's the difference with me. I don't want a young talent who can't progress his game and evolve to become a better player, especially one who needs the ball in his hands so much. On a playoff team, Evans would be the 6th man.

Its almost an identical situation with Martin. On a bad team, Martin does what he does and people look at a few areas and say "wow he's one of the top players at his position", but he's not guy who can carry a team to the playoffs. He's a supporting player on better teams.

 

[Darth Divac]

Well apart from being wrong on almost every point you were really batting 1.000 there.


Its almost scary watching people so deeply invest themselves in being wrong.


A few pointers which you can of course ignore if they go against your deeply ingrained world view:

-- his defense has improved a lot
-- he developed a set shot three that was decently accurate
-- remember that post game? Do you remember what position he was playing at the time? Reason for that. He's not a natural post player. Was he going to post SFs? And last season was precisely when we began to see a little of that again at SG. In fact there was a stat late in the season where he was actually one of the most efficient post players in the NBA at that time because of how often he got fouled out of it. But neither Westphal or Smart had much of a plan in using it.
-- yes, he's proven he can't play without dominating the ball...except of course in turning in the most efficient season of his career.

So...
-Terrific finisher and ballhandler
-Great post player and rebounder for his position
-Efficient
-Improved accuracy on 3pt shot

Average person sees Lebron-Lite, Smart sees that he's obviously a power forward.

 

[Darth Divac]

He hasn't improved his shot. He hasn't improved his defense. He's regressed offensively (remember how he used to post up opposing 1 & 2s on the high block and abuse smaller guards? He has played 1-3 positions and almost exclusively forces his dribble drive now), proven he can't play without dominating the ball, and he can't stay healthy.

Your justification? Footage? Stats? Metrics? Sorry, but everything about that post was incorrect and unbacked. Empty words by someone who is simply bitter that he didn't lead us to the playoffs despite a piece of crap coach in a piece of crap organization with mostly garbage-bin players and the worst ownership group in North American sports. But-but-but-but he missed a layup!

 

[Showtime]

Your justification? Footage? Stats? Metrics? Sorry, but everything about that post was incorrect and unbacked. Empty words by someone who is simply bitter that he didn't lead us to the playoffs despite a piece of crap coach in a piece of crap organization with mostly garbage-bin players and the worst ownership group in North American sports. But-but-but-but he missed a layup!

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php/53058-Farewell-Tyreke?p=994642&viewfull=1#post994642

Oh well, I don't care if you disagree, he soon won't even be worth arguing about.

 

[VF21]

Since we're discussing the same thing in the Kings Rap forum, I'm going to close this thread. No need to duplicate the arguments.