sactowndog
All-Star
It’s why I said to some extent. Yes I agree IQ matters but that doesn’t mean length doesn’t matter.
Expectations of Kings' defense, 2021-22
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Telemachus
Starter
I don't think anyone said that length doesn't matter, just that it is overrated. Length can be a big help on defense if the player knows how toplay defense, but ultimately it comes down bbiq, footwork, positioning & intensity.
I don't think this is true at all. Go down the list of the top 20 defenders in basketball and virtually all of them will have wacky wingspans. Especially coming off Summer League, I think Mitchell can be a mold breaker of being an elite defender without the crazy wingspan, but he'll be more of an outlier with average size/wingspan than the rule. Honestly, it's one of the only factors that groups elite defenders together across multiple positions.
EIM86
Starter
Yah basketball has always been a sport of long arms being a good thing. There’s a reason why people with long wingspans tend to be better defenders. It’s better for handles, rebounds, defense, shooting everything
Davion makes up for wingspan with his foot speed, anticipation and reaction time. His wingspan is 3-4" shorter than PatBev's and Smart's so it'll be interesting to see if he can work his way into that group of elite defenders without the length.
I think the NBA got put on notice during SL so hopefully they allow Davion to continue to defend aggressively. The refs have the power to allow him to be one of the best defenders in the game or they can treat him like Cousins and completely neuter him. It's kind of why I consider the NBA a sport that teeters on the edge of sports entertainment, rather than a purely competitive sport where the best team wins. But we've known about that since 2002.
Yeah what was interesting was Mitchell almost exclusively used his body/positioning to play defense and take away space and really only engaged his arms or "reached" for a shot contest or going for a steal. I said this during this game threads too, but I've never seen someone move so quick laterally on defense. It's a super smart compensation for his lack of size/wingspan that should hopefully give him the edge to be an elite defender at the NBA level.
Honestly, if the refs don't let him D up like he played in SL, then defense is just dead in the NBA. It'd basically be saying that it's a foul for just "existing" in the offensive players space, even when you don't reach.
sactowndog
All-Star
Just to point out, these two statements are logically inconsistent. In saying it comes down to ….. you are literally saying length doesn’t matter.
"Length" matters. OF COURSE length matters. And so do lots of other things that typically aren't mentioned nearly as often, or as forcefully, in the context of defensive play. A bunch of them have been noted in this thread: footwork, quickness, physical strength, anticipation, toughness, BBIQ, film study....
To The_Jamal's point, most elite NBA defenders certainly have length. That doesn't make it the magical ingredient. Most elite NBA defenders ALSO have most/all of the other attributes on the list. It's that combination that makes them elite, not their length alone. The NBA is full of "long" players who can't defend. JaVale McGee would be a perennial DPOY candidate if "length" were as decisive as some seem to think.
To The_Jamal's point, most elite NBA defenders certainly have length. That doesn't make it the magical ingredient. Most elite NBA defenders ALSO have most/all of the other attributes on the list. It's that combination that makes them elite, not their length alone. The NBA is full of "long" players who can't defend. JaVale McGee would be a perennial DPOY candidate if "length" were as decisive as some seem to think.
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Telemachus
Starter
Mitchell won't be the mold breaker, I think that would have to go to Chris Paul.
Telemachus
Starter
Considering I specifically said it does matter, you are trying to put words in my mouth. Length without the other qualities I mentioned is almost worthless.
agree with all of this BUT - JaVale McGee is actually underrated. His hysterically funny bone headed plays are what people remember most about him. But he did a lot of good work on D and rim rolling for ‘ships.
Jrue Holiday
McGee is underrated. AND while his spectacular physical gifts (including, but not limited to length) have allowed him to carve out a long, solid career, they haven't been enough to make him a star. Far from it.
McGee is underrated. AND while his spectacular physical gifts (including, but not limited to length) have allowed him to carve out a long, solid career, they haven't been enough to make him a star. Far from it.
Chris Paul, Jrue Holiday, Jimmy Butler and Ben Simmons are four top-of-the-head examples of topnotch defenders who aren't at all long, especially by NBA standards, relative to their height. And, as I said already, the league's elite ALSO combine footwork, quickness, physical strength, anticipation, toughness, BBIQ ... length alone doesn't come close to explaining their defensive prowess. And in at least a few cases, length explains nothing of their success relative to their peers. In that respect, Mitchell won't be breaking any new ground.
sactowndog
All-Star
When you say ultimately it comes down to…. you are absolutely saying these are the things that fundamentally matter. That statement is basic English and logic.
sactowndog
All-Star
I didn’t put any words in your mouth. I used your exact words. It’s not my fault your words are logically inconsistent.
if you chose to say X, Y and Z are fundamentals and then length matters that is fine. But you did not … you said X, Y, Z are ultimately it come comes down….
for the record for all I have talked about BBIQ you ought to know that I would agree BBIQ matters a lot . But that doesn’t mean length doesn’t matter as NBA shooters will rise up and shoot over the top of you.
Telemachus
Starter
That doesn't discount length, it qualifies it. The NBA has lots of players with length that are bad defensively & good defensive players who lack length. It isn't a skill. What length can do is to help a player to excell that much more with their defensive skills. That should be evident to Kings' fans. Both Bogi and Buddy have good length, but are bad on defense (for different reasons). Buddy lacks almost all the defensive skills (except rebounding), while Bogi lacks the quickness & athleticism (and many times the intensity & desire).
Telemachus
Starter
Once again, I literally said that length can be a big help on defense, but many overrate it when looking at defense.
sactowndog
All-Star
it’s length relative to position. For a small forward
Jimmy Butler is 6’ 8” and a 8’ 5” standing reach. Average to slightly negative for a small forward.
Ben Simmons is 7’ 0” and a 9’ 0” standing reach. Slightly positive for a small forward.
I believe you commented about Jrue and Giannis. One issue with lack of length is shooting over the defender uninhibited. Giannis doesn’t shoot much over anyone so not sure the value of that data point. Paul doesn’t typically guard small forwards.
sactowndog
All-Star
I would argue BBIQ isn’t a skill either. Nor is lateral quickness. Length, BBIQ and Lateral quickness are all attributes that can applied to make you a better defender. If you have all 3 chances are you are a very good defender such as Ben Simmons.
Your Bogi example is a poor one. If you look at starting guards Bogi is statistically an average defender because of his length.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/a...Season&PlayerPosition=G&StarterBench=Starters
You quoted my post. I said nothing one way or the other about Giannis.
So Butler is an excellent defender with "average to slightly negative" length for his position. Your words. Simmons is an absolutely elite defender with "slightly positive" length for his. Chris Paul and Jrue Holiday are additional examples I offer without going to the wingspan tables. Do you really doubt that there're a TON of NBA players w/great length who're average defenders or worse? Because while length helps, it isn't nearly enough.
sactowndog
All-Star
why I said I believe. I remember someone said something about Giannis and Jrue but if it wasn’t you fine.
none of the players you cited have significant below average length for their position. Mitchell would have significant below average length for a 3.
No one said length alone was enough.
If you have very low BBIQ you will be compromised. If you have very low lateral quickness for the position you will be compromised. If you have very low length for the position you will be compromised.
sactowndog
All-Star
True he tries to compensate with length. But if you are below average in length or lateral quickness for the position it will impact elite defense for that position.
sactowndog
All-Star
isn’t this discussion about defense? Also in a league where many teams go 3 players deep at that spot or more, we really only have Barnes….
King Baller
All-Star
I used to watch Don Nelson play small a lot. He would force the other team to guard his smaller team. Which lead to the other teams coach putting in smaller players to match up. IMO that is the way for the Kings. It does not matter how many 6' 8" wings the other team has when they can't defend Fox, Ty or Off Night
I like the three guard line-up. It is easy to have confidence in the defense of our three best.
That means we need a big center. Holmes is sort of an over-achiever and under-sized. With better team defense he becomes a better defender.
It would be good to use a guy like Lin at times because he occupies so much space.
The glaring weakness in this scheme is that Barnes at the 4 is a good defender but not a very good rebounder.
The Kings have nothing to lose by "using what they have." Fox and Mitchell will be two of the fastest guys in the League. You don't have to be big if you get there first.
That means we need a big center. Holmes is sort of an over-achiever and under-sized. With better team defense he becomes a better defender.
It would be good to use a guy like Lin at times because he occupies so much space.
The glaring weakness in this scheme is that Barnes at the 4 is a good defender but not a very good rebounder.
The Kings have nothing to lose by "using what they have." Fox and Mitchell will be two of the fastest guys in the League. You don't have to be big if you get there first.
I used to watch Don Nelson play small a lot. He would force the other team to guard his smaller team. Which lead to the other teams coach putting in smaller players to match up. IMO that is the way for the Kings. It does not matter how many 6' 8" wings the other team has when they can't defend Fox, Ty or Off Night
This is a really important and, I think, generally under-appreciated point. Some folks are worried about whether a 3-guard Kings' lineup will be able to defend adequately. So: "At 6'0", can Davion really guard NBA wings?" But, regardless of the answer to that question, there's also a complementary question about whether those NBA wings can guard Davion on the other end.
The REAL question - with any lineup - is how the Kings' (dis)advantages at one end of the floor stack up against their (dis)advantages at the other end.
My own big concern with the 3-guard lineup is rebounding. None of the main three - DFox, Tyrese, Davion - is a strong rebounder for the position. (Terence Davis IS a strong rebounder; maybe he needs to be one of the three whenever we go that route.) HB isn't a strong rebounder for the 4. Holmes is about average for a 5, whereas Len/Thompson are both very good but will get less time on the floor than Holmes.
Point is that a lineup of DFox, Tyrese, Davion, Barnes, and Holmes likely gets hammered on the boards.
A related point: can Len play the part of a stretch-5? 3 years ago he hit 36% of his threes on solid volume (2.6 3PA in only 20 mpg). He hasn't approached that volume of 3 before or since. But if he can pose a legit threat from 3, then Len-Holmes and Len-Bags can more readily play with the 3 guards and rebounding becomes much less of a concern.
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SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I used to watch Don Nelson play small a lot. He would force the other team to guard his smaller team. Which lead to the other teams coach putting in smaller players to match up. IMO that is the way for the Kings. It does not matter how many 6' 8" wings the other team has when they can't defend Fox, Ty or Off Night
And even if it doesn't work so what. This teams core is based around guards. Use them or lose them. If you are winning having found some other combo, fine, but hopefully this guard thing works wonders otherwise this gets complicated. I'm down for more Buddy at PF at this point. Just don't have Walton try to grind teams, play that Nelson mismatch style.
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