Even though we sucked today (Mar. 19)...

[nbrans]

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO TEAM BALL??
IMHO THERE ARE TOO MANY SELFISH SHOTS WITH LOTS OF TIME LEFT ON THE CLOCK, AND THEY ARE MISSED!

Although I'm not quite as upset as NanaKing, I agree. It seems like when the offense is struggling the team gets into a vicious cycle -- more one on one and less ball movement, which only worsens the problem. Artest and Bibby need to simmer down when the offense is tough and work on getting their teammates good shots instead of trying to put the offense on their backs.

 

[NanaKing]

There u go nbrans!!!!
I wasn't going to mention names but u hit my thoughts RIGHT ON!

 

[OHSacFan]

Finally someone else is seeing the same thing I have been watching. The TO's were hidieous to watch. BUT, the bad shot selection down the stretch is worse. Why do we continue to come down the floor and shoot a ridiculous shot with often times at least 16 sec. on the clock and not even in transition? And, why, does our coaching staff continue to let it happen? If we continue to play 2 man basketball in tight games over the next 16 they will be cleaning out there lockers in early April!!!!

 

[Kings113]

Ugh, calm down... not on thin ice yet.

 

[Viking]

Yeah, I mean there are teams worse off than us right now. And don't get me wrong, I want the best and I expect the Kings to put on the best performance they can. Clearly the last two games weren't an indication of our potential. But I'm just happy at what we can still do this season even after all the rocky start and I'm incredibly enthusiastic about next season and all its' possibilities! I'm just looking on the bright side and I have to say that since the Artest trade, that side has gotten a lot brighter! I'm just feeling optimistic and that's why I made the thread.

No matter what happens though, GO KINGS

 

[BMiller52]

Is anyone else getting a little worried about Mike's shot selection lately? I mean he's been hitting some of them, but I don't want him to keep doing his best Kobe/Starbury/JWill(I'm exaggerating here) impression. I'm sick of all the pull up 3s, especially when we're on a 2 on 1 break.

 

[piksi]

Is anyone else getting a little worried about Mike's shot selection lately? I mean he's been hitting some of them, but I don't want him to keep doing his best Kobe/Starbury/JWill(I'm exaggerating here) impression. I'm sick of all the pull up 3s, especially when we're on a 2 on 1 break.

Iverson, Arenas, etc

 

[Viking]

Barkley always says we need a superstar





(Kidding )

 

[VF21]

Ugh, calm down... not on thin ice yet.

People are simply venting. There's no problem with that IMHO. And, as far as the thin ice goes, you want to make your corrections BEFORE you hit the thin ice. Not once you're already in the middle of it.

I can fully understand where NanaKing and OHSacFan are coming from. I, too, nearly fall victim to massive attacks of apoplexy when I see the quick pull-up jumper instead of good ball movement. Of course, the way they WEREN'T handling the ball yesterday, one could probably argue it was best for them NOT to try and pass the ball in the 4th quarter...

 

[Kings113]

Hence why I said "not on thin ice yet", because we won't be, or in the middle of it. I wasn't talking about the quick-jumpers, but more the overall play.

 

[VF21]

That's all well and good, but both NanaKing and OHSacFan were talking mainly about shot selection and quick jumpers.

 

[kingkung]

I ate your avatar for breakfast, it was pretty damn tasty!

Yeah, pancake and rabbit meat, OHHHH YEAH!

 

[Kings113]

That's all well and good, but both NanaKing and OHSacFan were talking mainly about shot selection and quick jumpers.

Why is it "all well and good"?

I didn't read NanaKings post(s), and responded to OHSacFan, as it was below that and was to this from OSF mainly:

If we continue to play 2 man basketball in tight games over the next 16 they will be cleaning out there lockers in early April!!!!

Thus my comment "Ugh, calm down... we're not on thin ice yet.".

 

[beemerr23]

Why do we continue to come down the floor and shoot a ridiculous shot with often times at least 16 sec. on the clock and not even in transition? And, why, does our coaching staff continue to let it happen?

exactly, it's a coaching issue, but everyone else here seems to think otherwise.

 

[Bricklayer]

exactly, it's a coaching issue, but everyone else here seems to think otherwise.

Here's why we ignore it -- EVERY team in the NBA does it occassonally. EVERY one. Not always, but it is one of the classic problems that develops for EVERY team when things get a little fractured. The Knicks do it all the time with Larry Brown. The Lakers do it all the time with PJ. The coaches who do best at preventing it are also those that strangle their entire offense by calling every single play and walking it up. Its not a good thing, but it happens. Many times people complain about things that are just basketball.

This coach, this staff, this system, has turned oout offensive powerhouse after offensive powerhouse over the years. Quite possibly THE premier offensive coach/system in the entire league through the first half of this decade (perhaps Don Nelson). With a team of relative strangers figuring things out there will be warts. But saying "ooh its the coaching" as if its some sort of indictment just shows ignorance of the bigger picture. It happens. Be better when it no longer does. But it will happen with ANY team that hasn't been together and cohesive for long periods of time.

 

[1kingzfan]

With a team of relative strangers figuring things out there will be warts. But saying "ooh its the coaching" as if its some sort of indictment just shows ignorance of the bigger picture. It happens. Be better when it no longer does. But it will happen with ANY team that hasn't been together and cohesive for long periods of time.

I hardly believe that nbarans, NanaKing, OHSacFan, and beemrr23 are ignorant of the big picture. They have noted a disturbing trend at the end of games when the opposing defense wratchets down in close games. They see that offensive efficiency is destroyed by ballhogging and taking poor shots in the process. And they have noted that it is counter-productive. That seems pretty obvious.

To try to rationalize it by saying the recognized better coaches in the league allow that to happen and coaches that do try to halt that non-productive mode strangle their teams by calling every play is truly what's ignorant of the big picture. What is wrong with a coach calling a play every now and then down the stretch to try to change the 1-on-1 mode they see and stimulate ball movement to get a better shot? NOT every play but inject a little coaching to try to change the tempo and get back to the strength of what your TEAM has to offer? Answer: Nothing. It only makes sense.

If you've got a Kobe or MJ, perhaps your mindset can be a little different, if they can more often than not earn themselves good shots in crunch time. If Ron or Mike are truly "hot" in crunch time, then you perhaps you let them go and see how it plays out. If they are not, and opposing D's are collapsing on them so that they cannot get good shots, the coach's job is to make an adjustment to give his team the best chance of winning, and that is by getting his team BETTER shots. If cohesiveness is an issue, too, the coach should be further motivated to take some charge late to get the most out of his team.

There's nothing ignorant about calling for a little coaching late in games, when a team needs an adjustment to perform better.

This is an area where the Kings need improvement, offensive execution late in games when the D really tightens up and ref whistles are swallowed, because it best simulates what will happen come playoff time. Let's hope that we see some changes come next crunch time.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Here's why we ignore it -- EVERY team in the NBA does it occassonally. EVERY one. Not always, but it is one of the classic problems that develops for EVERY team when things get a little fractured.

Since it's a 'classic' problem, wouldn't it make sense to address it, rather than ignore it? I don't think anyone has a problem with OCCASIONALLY going one on one, or the occasional quick shot. I think what people are upset about is the fact that, come crunch time, the team stops doing what makes them successful. I don't think it is strangling a team to tell them to run the freaking offense, remind them to execute. Even if it's just every now and then.

The Knicks do it all the time with Larry Brown

The Knicks suck.

The Lakers do it all the time with PJ

The lakers have Kobe, and even he is not always succesful, but they don't have quite the choices we have.

The coaches who do best at preventing it are also those that strangle their entire offense by calling every single play and walking it up. Its not a good thing, but it happens. Many times people complain about things that are just basketball.

No one said walk the ball up, or call a play EVERY time down the floor.

This coach, this staff, this system, has turned oout offensive powerhouse after offensive powerhouse over the years. Quite possibly THE premier offensive coach/system in the entire league through the first half of this decade (perhaps Don Nelson). With a team of relative strangers figuring things out there will be warts. But saying "ooh its the coaching" as if its some sort of indictment just shows ignorance of the bigger picture. It happens. Be better when it no longer does. But it will happen with ANY team that hasn't been together and cohesive for long periods of time.

Absolutely, and what has made them a powerhouse offensive team over those years? Unselfish play. Yes, the team needs to learn to play together more cohesively, not going to happen in the amount of time we have left unless the coaching staff addresses' the lack of execution in crunch time. They can't just ignore it and hope it 'gets better' as they play together more. There isn't time.

 

[Bricklayer]

To try to rationalize it by saying the recognized better coaches in the league allow that to happen and coaches that do try to halt that non-productive mode strangle their teams by calling every play is truly what's ignorant of the big picture.

No, here would be where the ignornace kicks in: the assumption that somehow every coach in the NBA doesn't get it and this keeps on happening because gee, they just aren't teaching it. Not how it works.

NO coach says "gee, run down the court and chuck up a shot with 23 seconds to go" (except possibly D'Antoni). And yet oddly it happens anyway. It happens on teams with some of the best coaches. It happens on teams with some of the best OFFENSIVE coaches. That tells me that pointless complaining aside, there is more at work than the coaching. Indeed, when you have the EXACT same coach coaching this team as has coached the league's premiere offensive juggernaught in the new millenium, to asume that somehow he has suddenly forgotten that this is a bad thing is completely ridiculous.

This happens, even to the best coaches. Not because they want it to. But because when you lack cohesion and goto guys and you get squeezed in the late game, things sometimes fall apart. There are few easy shots late. Teams dial in on defense. Players get desperate. This didn't just start this year. Its not just restricted to us. The "ignorance" comes not from identifying an obvious problem, but in assuming it is easily correctible or some grand coaching failue. It happens. And to teams in our position it almost ALWAYS happens at lest some of the time.

 

[VF21]

No, here would be where the ignornace kicks in: the assumption that somehow every coach in the NBA doesn't get it and this keeps on happening because gee, they just aren't teaching it. Not how it works.

NO coach says "gee, run down the court and chuck up a shot with 23 seconds to go" (except possibly D'Antoni). And yet oddly it happens anyway. It happens on teams with some of the best coaches. It happens on teams with some of the best OFFENSIVE coaches. That tells me that pointless complaining aside, there is more at work than the coaching. Indeed, when you have the EXACT same coach coaching this team as has coached the league's premiere offensive juggernaught in the new millenium, to asume that somehow he has suddenly forgotten that this is a bad thing is completely ridiculous.

This happens, even to the best coaches. Not because they want it to. But because when you lack cohesion and goto guys and you get squeezed in the late game, things sometimes fall apart. There are few easy shots late. Teams dial in on defense. Players get desperate. This didn't just start this year. Its not just restricted to us. The "ignorance" comes not from identifying an obvious problem, but in assuming it is easily correctible or some grand coaching failue. It happens. And to teams in our position it almost ALWAYS happens at lest some of the time.

Excellent points, IMHO.

If I might add...

Of course there are problems. This group of players doesn't TRUST each other yet. It's obvious and the only way it's going to get better is with time. Whether they have enough time to truly get to the point where trusting is second nature is something we won't know for sure until it happens.

 

[1kingzfan]

The "ignorance" comes not from identifying an obvious problem, but in assuming it is easily correctible or some grand coaching failue. It happens. And to teams in our position it almost ALWAYS happens at lest some of the time.

I don't recall any member here saying that crunch time scoring problems were "easily correctable." They were merely asking for the coach to exercise some coaching acumen and try to use his position to give his team the best chance in crunch time. It's always tougher to score late in a close game...NBA fact of life.

But the one point we all seem to agree upon is that this end game "behavior" is not optimal.

One camp says... oh well, it's going to happen, always has, always will, happens to all coaches/teams, good and bad, cohesive and non-cohesive, so you just have to live with it.

Another camp says, why should a coach sit back and accept it, when the coach has some possible control of the team's performance in the half court (and thus the game's outcome) by calling a set play, asking for more ball movement before a shot, or the like when his team shows a trend for poor, ill-timed, forced shot selection in crunch time?

Folks understand that every possession will not be a good one, there's the matter of that OTHER team out there trying to stop you and disrupt you, and players just plain don't always do what they are supposed to do (ie, play smart ball).

Nevertheless, as a fan, asking for some order when there is late game chaos in a close match is by no means being out of touch with reality, or failing to understand the game, or being "ignorant" as some in their condescension would try to have you believe. Just as a coach calls a timeout to stop a team's run during the course of a contest, so should he also exercise some control at the end to get his team to play, what we all agree is, optimally.

 

[VF21]

I don't recall any member here saying that crunch time scoring problems were "easily correctable." They were merely asking for the coach to exercise some coaching acumen and try to use his position to give his team the best chance in crunch time. It's always tougher to score late in a close game...NBA fact of life.

But the one point we all seem to agree upon is that this end game "behavior" is not optimal.

One camp says... oh well, it's going to happen, always has, always will, happens to all coaches/teams, good and bad, cohesive and non-cohesive, so you just have to live with it.
Another camp says, why should a coach sit back and accept it, when the coach has some possible control of the team's performance in the half court (and thus the game's outcome) by calling a set play, asking for more ball movement before a shot, or the like when his team shows a trend for poor, ill-timed, forced shot selection in crunch time?

Folks understand that every possession will not be a good one, there's the matter of that OTHER team out there trying to stop you and disrupt you, and players just plain don't always do what they are supposed to do (ie, play smart ball).

Nevertheless, as a fan, asking for some order when there is late game chaos in a close match is by no means being out of touch with reality, or failing to understand the game, or being "ignorant" as some in their condescension would try to have you believe. Just as a coach calls a timeout to stop a team's run during the course of a contest, so should he also exercise some control at the end to get his team to play, what we all agree is, optimally.

Wow. Talk about condescension and over-simplification. Is it really necessary to make this about egos instead of the team?

I think you're completely oversimplifying the item I've bolded above. What "one camp" - which makes no sense whatsoever, BTW - is saying ISN'T that we simply sit back and live with whatever you're defining "it" as... I know what I'm saying is that coaching isn't the main problem right now. It's a lack of basic instinctual trust between the players. As long as that's lacking, you're going to have guys trying to put the team on their shoulders and do it all. In games where the offense was stinking up the court, it's going to be even more prevalent. The only reason we didn't lose by 25 is because the Timberwolves did everything but serve themselves up to us on a silver platter with apples in their mouths in their attempts to lose.

The team had nearly 30 bleeping turnovers. Unless it was Adelman out there dropping the bleeping ball or throwing passes into the stands, I don't think that's primarily a coaching problem.

 

[Viking]

I agree it's not a coaching problem. At the very least, it's not all Adelman's fault; he's human and he makes mistakes just like everyone else on the Kings. ...The team just decided to make 30 in the last game, but I digress. That's in the past.

I agree with VF21, and her points that this team really isn't used to eachother like other teams and it may take the rest of the season to gel to the point of consistency. From what I have seen, however, this team can function together at a very high level when at home in front of the fans who keep them energised, and eventually, on the road together, when they reach that sort of cohesion, this team will be doing a lot better on the road as well. At the very least not 30 turnovers And I look forward to that, especially next season when we can start with a clean slate and surprise the NBA.

GO KINGS!

 

[beemerr23]

I don't recall any member here saying that crunch time scoring problems were "easily correctable." They were merely asking for the coach to exercise some coaching acumen and try to use his position to give his team the best chance in crunch time.

One camp says... oh well, it's going to happen, always has, always will, happens to all coaches/teams, good and bad, cohesive and non-cohesive, so you just have to live with it.

Another camp says, why should a coach sit back and accept it, when the coach has some possible control of the team's performance in the half court (and thus the game's outcome) by calling a set play, asking for more ball movement before a shot, or the like when his team shows a trend for poor, ill-timed, forced shot selection in crunch time?

Nevertheless, as a fan, asking for some order when there is late game chaos in a close match is by no means being out of touch with reality, or failing to understand the game, or being "ignorant" as some in their condescension would try to have you believe. Just as a coach calls a timeout to stop a team's run during the course of a contest, so should he also exercise some control at the end to get his team to play, what we all agree is, optimally.

Thank you, someone who sees it the way I do. The thing that bugs me the most is you guys going "Oh well, can't win them all!" or like he pointed out "Bad shots always happen, always have, always will." Like he said, the coach doesn't have to sit back and let his team commit 28 turnovers, that's an outrageous amount. The same goes for late game shot selections. He doesn't have to sit back and accept the fact that they're playing sloppy basketball, run a few set plays at the end to give your team the best chance at winning. Nothing more really needs to be said, 1kingzfan said it best.

 

[VF21]

Thank you, someone who sees it the way I do. The thing that bugs me the most is you guys going "Oh well, can't win them all!" or like he pointed out "Bad shots always happen, always have, always will." Like he said, the coach doesn't have to sit back and let his team commit 28 turnovers, that's an outrageous amount. The same goes for late game shot selections. He doesn't have to sit back and accept the fact that they're playing sloppy basketball, run a few set plays at the end to give your team the best chance at winning. Nothing more really needs to be said, 1kingzfan said it best.

So Adelman let the guys make those turnovers? Care to explain how?

It was Rick who slipped the official's foot underneath the ball as Ron was dribbling, causing it to go out of bounds? I"m so glad to know that, because it was sure hard to see on TV.

1kingzfan agreed with you, so in your opinion, that's all that needs to be said?

Sorry, but around here one member agreeing with a minority opinion is rarely the end of the discussion...

Peace.

GO KINGS!!!!!

 

[Bricklayer]

Thank you, someone who sees it the way I do. The thing that bugs me the most is you guys going "Oh well, can't win them all!" or like he pointed out "Bad shots always happen, always have, always will." Like he said, the coach doesn't have to sit back and let his team commit 28 turnovers, that's an outrageous amount. The same goes for late game shot selections. He doesn't have to sit back and accept the fact that they're playing sloppy basketball, run a few set plays at the end to give your team the best chance at winning. Nothing more really needs to be said, 1kingzfan said it best.

No indeed, the coach doesn't have to sit back and do anything. All he really has to do is come on to a messageboard and complain about it and the problem will magically go away and his players will all promise REAL hard never to do it again. It really is just that easy.

He might also try telling them not to turn the ball over so much, because clearly that never occurred to him.

Or he could even resort to the mass benchings in a close game -- always a messageboard favorite strategy. The Ukraine Train may not be able to dribble and chew gum at the same time, but at least he wouldn't turn it over.

 

[PixelPusher]

a LOT of posts in the "Even though we sucked today..." thread right now.

This isn't some sort of pre-emptive reaction to the game later on tonight is it?

 

[VF21]

I changed the title to reflect the proper date/time orientation. Thank God you caught that, man!

 

[Viking]

Haha, thanks VF21. Didn't want people getting the wrong idea. I hope we do quite the opposite of what we did against the Timberwolves tonight

 

[nbrans]

I hardly believe that nbarans, NanaKing, OHSacFan, and beemrr23 are ignorant of the big picture. They have noted a disturbing trend at the end of games when the opposing defense wratchets down in close games. They see that offensive efficiency is destroyed by ballhogging and taking poor shots in the process. And they have noted that it is counter-productive. That seems pretty obvious.

For the record, I don't like the chucking tendencies, but I don't blame the coach. He's not the one taking the shots. I agree with Bricklayer, VF21 and others on this one. I don't like the chucking, but I'm also not all that worried. This is a team still gelling and developing chemistry, and that takes time. It's not how Adelman is drawing it up. I'm sure he agrees with all of us, I'm sure he would like the team to run the offense and move the ball and get good looks, but players always frustrate their coach and I don't know that there's so much Adelman can do about it.

 

[NanaKing]

Sorry For The "late" Post But I Wasn't Near The Computer Yesterday.
Wow!!!! Guess I Really Stirred The Pot With My Post!
I Certainly Didn't Know I Was "ignorant Of The Game", "out Of Touch With Reality" Or Just Plain Didn't "understand."
From Now On I Will Keep My Frustrations Of How The Kings Are Playing To Myself. It Isn't Worth Being Belittled.
[peace]