ESPN: Manning joins Favre as he wins 3rd NFL MVP

pdxKingsFan said:
I agree about the defenses too, but that's because I believe Indy's philosophy is flawed. They have big name talent, but I think their particular talent is suited to warm weather and domes. Great when you have home field, not so great when the Pats and Steelers are putting up nice seasons and you gotta play on their turf.
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I think that's true, but any offense is going to slow down in December and January, which is why Tom Brady didn't throw 70 touchdowns last year. But the Colts have won some big games in cold weather over the past three seasons, including Pittsburgh and Cleveland this season.

What's hurt them the past two seasons is injuries to their main guys and mistakes by the backups. Last season you had Marvin coming back for the playoffs and fumbling at the ten yard line, ending the Colts chances to go up 14-0 in the first half. Then Kenton Keith dropping a pass at the ten and it getting picked off. Kind of what happened to the Chargers Saturday.

This year, Joseph Addai missed half the season, Bob Sanders missed half the season, the middle linebacker missed the last five games... which reminds me, I thought it was a mistake to change up the linebacker rotation. Buster Davis did a good job filling in for Brackett at the end of the season, and he should have started instead of Keiaho in the middle.

Anyways, I can't wait for August to come around.
 
Superman said:
I think that's true, but any offense is going to slow down in December and January, which is why Tom Brady didn't throw 70 touchdowns last year. But the Colts have won some big games in cold weather over the past three seasons, including Pittsburgh and Cleveland this season.

What's hurt them the past two seasons is injuries to their main guys and mistakes by the backups. Last season you had Marvin coming back for the playoffs and fumbling at the ten yard line, ending the Colts chances to go up 14-0 in the first half. Then Kenton Keith dropping a pass at the ten and it getting picked off. Kind of what happened to the Chargers Saturday.

This year, Joseph Addai missed half the season, Bob Sanders missed half the season, the middle linebacker missed the last five games... which reminds me, I thought it was a mistake to change up the linebacker rotation. Buster Davis did a good job filling in for Brackett at the end of the season, and he should have started instead of Keiaho in the middle.

Anyways, I can't wait for August to come around.
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I agree that offenses will slow down in December, but injuries aren't really an excuse. Every team suffers injuries. The Chargers beat the Colts last year without their top 3 offensive players, and beat them this year (essentially) without LT, and Merriman has been out since Week 1. Gates wasn't 100% either, even though he played great. I'm not making this into a SD vs IND thing, I'm just trying to prove a point that teams need to work around injuries and not make them an excuse. Take the Patriots this year for example. If Favre hadn't been traded to the Jets causing Pennington to be waived, Cassel would've led that team to a playoff game last week.
 
SacKings7 said:
I agree that offenses will slow down in December, but injuries aren't really an excuse. Every team suffers injuries. The Chargers beat the Colts last year without their top 3 offensive players, and beat them this year (essentially) without LT, and Merriman has been out since Week 1. Gates wasn't 100% either, even though he played great. I'm not making this into a SD vs IND thing, I'm just trying to prove a point that teams need to work around injuries and not make them an excuse. Take the Patriots this year for example. If Favre hadn't been traded to the Jets causing Pennington to be waived, Cassel would've led that team to a playoff game last week.
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My point wasn't that they lost because their guys were hurt. I was saying that their backups made mistakes. Like Tim Jennings' defensive holding and Clint Session's face mask. And then there's the decimation of the offensive line that hurt the run game all year.

All I was trying to say is that the problem wasn't with their philosophy, at least not in my opinion. Yeah, they're a fast-paced team that's going to struggle in cold weather, but they're 7-1 in December the past two years. They lost at home to the Chargers last year, in San Diego this year (yeah it was 55 degrees, but it's not exactly The Razor).
 
Superman said:
My point wasn't that they lost because their guys were hurt. I was saying that their backups made mistakes. Like Tim Jennings' defensive holding and Clint Session's face mask. And then there's the decimation of the offensive line that hurt the run game all year.

All I was trying to say is that the problem wasn't with their philosophy, at least not in my opinion. Yeah, they're a fast-paced team that's going to struggle in cold weather, but they're 7-1 in December the past two years. They lost at home to the Chargers last year, in San Diego this year (yeah it was 55 degrees, but it's not exactly The Razor).
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Oh ok, I must've read your post wrong. In any case, yeah those were some costly mistakes, especially that holding penalty on 3rd down.
 
Superman said:
I think that's true, but any offense is going to slow down in December and January, which is why Tom Brady didn't throw 70 touchdowns last year. But the Colts have won some big games in cold weather over the past three seasons, including Pittsburgh and Cleveland this season.
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I was actually talking about the defense when I was talking about the cold weather. The Tampa 2 is just not a winter playoff defense and good teams with a power game adapt to exploit it.
 
Superman said:
Yeah, they're a fast-paced team that's going to struggle in cold weather, but they're 7-1 in December the past two years.
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This is less impressive when you look at who they played and how many of those games were at home.

Their January road results tell the tale of why their philosophy is flawed.
 
pdxKingsFan said:
I was actually talking about the defense when I was talking about the cold weather. The Tampa 2 is just not a winter playoff defense and good teams with a power game adapt to exploit it.
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I could agree with that, with exceptions. And then, of course, everyone gets the misconception that the Colts play nothing but two deep all game long, that they never blitz, and that they don't play any man defense. Probably 65% of the time they're in Cover 2, but they do a lot of the same things other teams do in certain situations. They've even used Raheem Brock, end/tackle, as a standup rusher in passing situations.

But you're right, the Tampa 2 has weaknesses that get exploited by power running teams. Had the Colts gone to the Super Bowl and played the Giants or the Panthers, it probably would have been ugly.

This is less impressive when you look at who they played and how many of those games were at home.

Their January road results tell the tale of why their philosophy is flawed.
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Meh; road playoff games are hard to win, period. In the four seasons the Pats have been to the Super Bowl, they've only played two road games, and both were in Pittsburgh. The Colts went to Baltimore and did well against that power rushing team in '06.

And you play who you play. The Colts have won a lot of games on the road the past few years, even in cold weather. Regardless, they do have flaws that have been exposed the past few years.
 
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Supes I'm really surprised how non-chalant you seem about what I think are glaring weaknesses in the Colts gameplan. If Manning never hoists another Super Bowl trophy are you ok with that? I can't imagine that when Caldwell replaces Dungy there won't be an immediate drop off. And as Brady showed this season, you're only one snap away from losing your all-world MVP for a season or maybe longer. If Manning goes down do you think the Colts could go 11-5? He is their de facto offensive coordinator on top of everything else. You've got great receiving talent, but the offense seems to rely on Manning's defensive reads and trickery to make the most of it, which is why the 3-4 defenses with disguised coverage schemes give him fits.

As Kings fans we all know how short a window of time can be for a championship run. Maybe one is good for you, with a QB like Manning I'd think you'd want more. I don't like the Colts and don't want to see them win, but I think rather than defending some of their obvious shortcomings you'd be calling for some changes too.
 
I love talking football with you.

Here's the thing about the Colts, as they're currently comprised. They're salaries are top heavy, so they can't go out and offer deals to big name free agents. That means that their defense isn't going to add a guy like Albert Haynesworth to beef up the defensive line (I don't think they need to, by the way; Antonio Johnson looked good, and Dan Muir, who didn't play much this year because of injuries, is a good sized tackle also).

They rely on speed on defense, maybe a little too much with the linebackers, which hurts when the offensive line creates a running lane, because Gary Brackett isn't pushing a fullback into the hole, and he's not fighting off an offensive guard either. But that's one of the tradeoffs.

On offense, the system is so unique, due to Manning's presence, that you don't want to see them change too much of anything. The one thing that bothers me is seeing a running situation become a passing situation, like the 3rd and 2 in the fourth quarter when the team went empty backfield. Big mistake, and that happens more often than I like to see. For instance, in the regular season game against the Chargers, on the 4th and 1 pass to Marvin, it was off of play-action. You can never take away the threat of the run in a short yardage situation. That bothered me, but I'm not going to second guess Tom Moore and Peyton Manning. 95% of the time, that's not an issue.

Overall, Dungy's philosophy is "we do what we do, we just have to do it well." And when your team wins 12 games 6 years in a row, makes the playoffs 7 years in a row, and doesn't get blown out (only four double digit losses in the last four years), you can't really complain about much. I wish they did certain things differently, and I disagree with play calls from time to time. I thought Ron Meeks should have been fired a long time ago.

But I try to be realistic. Most teams don't win championships. Some of the greatest QBs of all time have no rings at all. The reality is, moreso than any other sport, a lot of things have to go right for a team to have a shot at a Super Bowl. It sucks every year your team gets eliminated, and some more than others, but most years you're not going to win. I don't think it's reasonable to get upset with the decisions your team makes when you lose a playoff game to a good team, especially when your team played hard and had a chance to win. It's upsetting, but it's no reason to say "big changes need to be made".

And it's not complacency, either. The Colts have a good team that is in the contenders conversation every preseason. They make the playoffs every year. They have one of the best quarterbacks in the game. And if that window closes without them winning another one, I'll wish they had one a couple more, but I'll be grateful that they were as good as they have been for so long. Most teams don't win three championships in four years.
 
I guess if my team had Manning and he only won once I'd think it was a major waste of the QB of his generation, almost on par with the way the Fins wasted Marino. And as much as I dislike Peyton and love to take a few cheap shots when I can, I really think its an organizational problem top to bottom. From an Elway fan, I think he'd be best served to run a more traditional offense with a top flight offensive coordinator calling the shots. I'm all for them doing the same thing they always do though.
 
Superman said:
If you get a few minutes, check out Bill Polian's interview after the loss.

http://colts.com/sub.cfm?page=article7&news_id=ebaa563c-f80b-48eb-b515-50abd4eddcb1
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There's a few chuckles in there for us non-Colts fans (in particular that he'd take back the holding call, which was the kind of call he pushed for in 2003/2004 and the brushing off of Session's facemask, that was blatant, I'm sorry) :) But its a good read, I'm glad he doesn't run my team though. This "can't win 'em all" stuff, appropriate for say the Atlanta Falcons but not a team that is as consistent in the regular season as they have been and he continually points out. Because of Brady's injury week 1 this was the first year since 03 that I haven't expected a championship as the only acceptable conclusion to the Pats season.
 
pdxKingsFan said:
There's a few chuckles in there for us non-Colts fans (in particular that he'd take back the holding call, which was the kind of call he pushed for in 2003/2004 and the brushing off of Session's facemask, that was blatant, I'm sorry) :) But its a good read, I'm glad he doesn't run my team though. This "can't win 'em all" stuff, appropriate for say the Atlanta Falcons but not a team that is as consistent in the regular season as they have been and he continually points out. Because of Brady's injury week 1 this was the first year since 03 that I haven't expected a championship as the only acceptable conclusion to the Pats season.
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Not to turn this into a "good call, bad call" conversation, but the defensive holding call was within the first five yards. And the Clint Session face mask was a play that would have been a five yarder last season. What bothered me about that was Dwight Freeney getting his face mask pulled over and over again by Marcus McNeil, without so much as one holding call against the Chargers offensive line all night long. But those are the breaks.

The reality is that you can't win 'em all. The Patriots, for as great as they're run and as great as the coach and quarterback are, haven't won a Super Bowl in four seasons. For all the changes they made in '07, and winning 18 straight games, one of the greatest teams of all time, they haven't won a championship in four years. All the "Tom Brady is the next Joe Montana" talk, and it's been four years. To say that anything less than a championship is unacceptable is to call your team a failure, and that really spits on the great things they've accomplished even in the non-championship years. Even this year, to go 11-5 without Tom Brady is a huge accomplishment.

I'm not satisfied with the fact that they haven't accomplished more in the postseason (I'd feel better even with them getting further in the playoffs; this getting bounced in the first round by an inferior team is getting old). I don't think anyone in the organization is. But realistically speaking, if you think that major changes need to be made everytime you fall short, you're not being reasonable. The Colts owe their consistency to their consistency: unlike other teams, they don't have changes to their coaching staff every summer. They don't have to worry about who the starting quarterback is going to be. They don't have suspended players and, for the most part, crippling injuries to key guys. I think their consistency in the front office and behind the scenes is crucial to their consistency on the field. The 49ers would be a much better team if they didn't have a new coaching staff every two seasons (four OC's in five years?) Same thing with tons of other teams.

Anyway, I guess my whole point is that I don't have a problem with the Colts philosophy. They're pretty much stuck building their team through the draft and free agent junk heap, year by year, and they do a good job finding talented players who can step in when needed. (Keiwann Ratliff was an undrafted rookie. Same with Dominic Rhodes. Antonio Johnson was signed from the Titans practice squad.) They're never a highly penalized team, they win most of their games, and most of their losses are close, and they are still a relatively young team, outside of Harrison. They're window is still open. I hope that they can play well enough to win a couple more rings, but I can recognize how rare what's happened the past few years well enough to appreciate it.
 
Not getting it done last year was crippling to the fan base. It was devastating, especially since my super secret plan of knocking my wife up on Super Bowl Sunday, having a son and naming him after my dad who also happens to be a Tom worked to perfection except for the stupid game result!!! It was going to be so awesome to tell him all about it. Oh well. The Red Sox didn't come through for his birthday either. That season is now a distant memory that I don't really care to talk about.

This year we actually had a bit of a reprieve because the Brady injury diminished expectations on day 1. And in some sick way finishing 11-5 on a 4 game streak and missing the playoffs feels a lot better than an early playoff exit would have. And instead of being the big bad Patriots all the sudden everyone was feeling sorry for them!

I don't really think it spits on the great things the Pats did in the first half of this decade to be upset that they've come up short. Them's the breaks, I don't trash the team over it, I don't say gee Brady really let me down in the Super Bowl, or where the hell was his line. But I think their system is such that when something breaks they find a way to fix it easily. The Colts on the other hand when something breaks it cripples the team. You could easily have a post-Elway Denver situation on your hands in the future, and I think you'll have a Wade Phillips era Denver situation on your hands the moment Dungy leaves. If you're lucky they'll get over that quickly, bring in a super coach and everyone will be "why'd we stick with Dungy so long" the way Denver fans talk about Coach Reeves. Or not.
 
For the first time, I feel sorry for a Patriots fan.

...

That's over with.

I understand what you mean about the result of this season, because of what happened. But I think making the playoffs, even with an early exit, is a better accomplishment automatically. Of course, the Pats did all they could to get there, and I pat [choke]Bill Belichick[/choke], Josh McDaniels and, of course, Matt Cassel on the back for a job well done. I'm anxious to see what happens to that team in the next two years. But you're certainly right: when someone goes down, they bounce back like nobody's business. Respects.

When Peyton Manning leaves, it's certainly going to be like Denver after Elway. But there's not too much that you can do about that. All the comparisons with Tom Brady aside, there's no one like Manning. And there's going to be some major adjustments when he's gone.
 
Looks like Dungy's done, all I have is presser at 5 Eastern, but rumors are swirling he is spending the day saying goodbye to players.

Shall be an interesting day.
 
Yeah, I kind of felt that way all season. Let's see what Jim Caldwell is about. The philosophy and the culture shouldn't change much, given that he's been a part of the organization for a while. Let's see what kind of results he can get. I'm even more anxious for August than I was a week ago.
 
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