J
jdbraver
Guest
How does Drummonds compare to Mutombo when he came into the league?
Mutombo was 7'1.25" w/o shoes weighing 228 pounds. Later in his career he was listed at only 245lbs. DE doesn't have wingspan or reach for him in their database but Before the draft it was speculated he had 7'8" reach so he had to have very long hands. Draftexpress listed Drummond in their video at 6'11", 268 pounds, 7'5" wingspan. So even with 20 pounds lost he's still much stronger than early career Mutombo but Deke certainly was significantly longer. Physically Drummond will probably look like sophomore Howard by draft time.
This got me interested on Drummond.
Does he really have the physical tools, mobility, and raw talent to be a very good shot-blocker like Ibaka or Ben Wallace if he is motivated enough?
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
His defense has never been worse than "meh" despite his lack of fire. Last year he averaged 2.7 blocks per game in 28 minutes. Anthony Davis numbers? No. But he's certainly going to put up better blocking numbers than Chuck Hayes and JT combined. It's his proclivity for turning into a wallflower on offense that has people scratching their heads.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
UCONN has a bad history of developing big men. When Drummond decided to go there, I though it was a bad decision. All they ask of their big men to stand in the paint, guard the basket, and rebound. Unfortunately, as Thabeet found out, they have a 3 second rule in the NBA and gosh by golly, the opposing big man has the gall to actually go out to 18 feet from the basket, and they want me to guard him out there.
OK, I'm exaggerating a little. But in a nutshell, Drummond has little in the way of post skills. Fundamentally he's a poor rebounder. He was still able to rebound in college just by being more athletic and bigger than the opposition. That won't work against players in the NBA. I know that everyone wants to overlook his flaws. But folks, he's a very risky pick. If I was drafting 15th, then I'd probably grap him. But not at five, unless my options were so bad I didn't have choice.
Comparing Drummond to Mutombo probably isn't fair to Drummond. Mutombo was a four year player at Georgetown, which by the way, does have a history of developing big men. Players like Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Othella Harrington, and of late, Roy Hibbert spring to mind. Mutombo made the all star team his rookie year, and was already 25 years old. He knew how to play the game. And of course thats the point. Drummond doesn't! Neither did Thabeet. Neither did Whiteside. Doesn't mean he can't, or won't learn. But doesn't mean he will either.
If you all love Drummond, then why preytell don't you love Whiteside? Whiteside blocked more shots in college than Drummond. Whiteside is 6'11", and a very good athlete. The only difference, other than about 40 pounds, is that you already know what Whiteside can do, and Drummond is the nicely wrapped surprise package. He's still a mystery, so that makes him OK. Well good luck with that! By the way, this isn't directed at you Gilles.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Physical tools, mobility, and raw talent? Yes! Motivation, well thats the 64 million dollar question. The NBA graveyard is littered with players that had all the physical tools, but didn't have the proper motivation.
Section 101
All-Star
From what I've seen of the Drummond highlights he's a lot quicker than Whiteside. Whiteside seems really slow moving, not his jumping for blocked shots though.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I posted this over in another Drummond thread. This was his final high school highlight vid form a year ago just after he had declared for UConn. Look anything like Mutumbo to you?
There is a bit of mystery reconciling that Drummond above with the Drummond of freshman year at UConn. Either way he's nowhere near as gigantic as Mutumbo, nor a once in a generation shotblocking talent. But the claims that he's some sort of untalented limited scrub pale in the face of vids like that. Very few men his size can do those things. The great question I want to know is why he didn't last year. Coaching? Weight? Depression? Drinking/Drugs? Motivation? System? Drummond is going to get some GM in hot water one way or the other. Either you are going to be the idiot who selected him, or you are going to be the idiot who passed on him for some mediocrity. What I can say, is that if we actually ever do plan to get good one of these days, we may never have another chance to draft one of these guys until Cousins is done or gone -- 6'11" physical freaks don't slip to the 20s in the draft. Rem during Dwight's rookie year we played them and I said in a grades thread how come we never get a chance to draft one of these guys. Well, we might here. But whatever he is, its not Deke. Not as enormous a roadblock, but far more fluid and skilled.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Highly possible. Drummond is a freak athlete. Not many like him around. Which of course is why he's so tantalizing. But Whiteside is a very good athlete who runs the floor very well, and obviously has leaping ability. I guess a better way of putting it, is that athleticism isn't holding either player back. They both have a couple of common traits though. Both are not good ballhandlers, neither knows what the word assist means, and passing the ball usually means a turnover. Now whether Whiteside has improved in any of those areas is hard to say. He didn't play enough to make a judgement.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I posted this over in another Drummond thread. This was his final high school highlight vid form a year ago just after he had declared for UConn. Look anything like Mutumbo to you?
There is a bit of mystery reconciling that Drummond above with the Drummond of freshman year at UConn. Either way he's nowhere near as gigantic as Mutumbo, nor a once in a generation shotblocking talent. But the claims that he's some sort of untalented limited scrub pale in the face of vids like that. Very few men his size can do those things. The great question I want to know is why he didn't last year. Coaching? Weight? Depression? Drinking/Drugs? Motivation? System? Drummond is going to get some GM in hot water one way or the other. Either you are going to be the idiot who selected him, or you are going to be the idiot who passed on him for some mediocrity. What I can say, is that if we actually ever do plan to get good one of these days, we may never have another chance to draft one of these guys until Cousins is done or gone -- 6'11" physical freaks don't slip to the 20s in the draft. Rem during Dwight's rookie year we played them and I said in a grades thread how come we never get a chance to draft one of these guys. Well, we might here. But whatever he is, its not Deke. Not as enormous a roadblock, but far more fluid and skilled.
First, I know your intelligent enough to know that it was a highlight video. You seldom see a lowlight video, and believe me, you could make one with Drummond. You didn't see how many times he turned the ball over, or got the ball stolen while trying to dribble in a crowd. No one has ever denyed his abilities, its his motivation, and feel for the game they question. And I don't know of one scout that I follow, or GM that I've heard, that doesn't worry about the same things with Drummond. I can't think of one person that considers him a can't miss prospect. And he should be!! I only saw him play in three highschool games, two of which were all star type games. In all three, he didn't live up to expectations. In one of the all star games he was pulled and put on the bench for being a spectator on the floor. Then in the second half, he came out and just dominated. But why didn't he do that from the get go? Thats the question...
Your right about being a GM's nightmare. I really doubt any of them want to have to decide whether to take a gamble of not. A player his size, with his kiind of athletic ability comes around every 20 years or so. He's that rare. Its a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation. Think what Cousins could do with Drummonds body and athletic ability.
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It's OK. I just want my brownie in 5 years when Drummond is major piece of a contender and Beal, MKG and Jeff Taylor are nice roleplayers.
Exactly what i've been saying about Drummond this whole time. The one major turn-off for me in prospects is effort and motor. Drummond is the perfect example of a guy who's been bigger/stronger and more athletic than everyone else so he hasn't had to work very hard or develop his game. He's the next DeAndre Jordan, Javale McGee of the NBA. They can block shots and display freakish athletic ability, but they aren't basketball players. McGee is one of the worst defenders in the league even! Those 2 guys have the all the athletic ability and natural to be Dwight Howard good and instead they're 25 minute centers with no offensive game and get you 8-8-2 a game due to not having the drive necessary to be great in the NBA.
I guarantee Whiteside and Drummond could get equal production in equal playing time next season. The benefit is Whiteside has been exposed to the NBA and the NBA lifestyle for 2 years now and gotten to work with NBA coaching for 2 years. We'd have to go through all those growing pains again with Drummond who will likely turn into that 8-8-2 center.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
One is a PF, the other is a C, hard to compare. Drummond can play C but they aren't the same mold of player with the exception that you hope both swat shots away like they're going out of style.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
It's OK. I just want my brownie in 5 years when Drummond is major piece of a contender and Beal, MKG and Jeff Taylor are nice roleplayers.
I'll use my greats Aunts recipe. Yum Yum! Hey, you could be right! Of course, We could end up with Beal, MKG and Jeff Taylor being good role players and Drummond in the D-league. Drummond is certainly a polarizing and intriguing player. Lets put it this way, if we end up drafting him, I pray your right, and I'll gladly bake you some brownies.
Telemachus
Starter
It's also a matter of knowing where we are as a team. A squad like the Bobcats where IT and Jason Thompson would easily be there best players has far more motivation to take a risk on someone like Drummond. We, on the other hand, have 1 franchise corner stone (Cousins) 1 guy possible franchise cornerstone (Reke) and 3 or 4 role players that could be in a rotation on a playoff team. We don't need have the time or need to take the risk on Drummond when we could have so many other available options to do with the fifth pick,
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
And you watch enough college basketball to know that that wasn't the issue with Drummond this year. Its not a question of whether he turned it over or not, its a question of him never even appearing to try to flash that talent. If he had played his frosh year at UConn and been facing people up and crossing them over and then throwing up a wild shot or behind the back pass for a turnover or something, then ok, you know what you are dealing with. Understand the talent, understand the problem. He didn't. You CGI on another face onto the UConn Drumond and there is no way in hell you would ever recognize his game as the same thing that is in that video.
And all of that leads ot these stupid comparisons to DeAndre Jordan and whatnot. Which are ridiculous. Jordan can NOT in any way do the things Drummond was flashing there. Few bigs can. A short list of other bigs who CAN'T do them would include Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert, Tyson Chandler, Marcin Gortat, DeAndre Jordan, Andrew Bynum, Dwight Howard, and basically any other center in the entire league not named Cousins. Maybe Nene on his best day, but not even there. That's not a question of don't or choose not to, or don't think its a smart play. Its a question of simply cannot. Do not have the talent to do that any more than I do.
And so yeah 6'11" freak athlete, but that's not the mystery with Drummond. The mystery of his freshman year is given the skills package he flashed, a skills package, inefficient or not, that possibly no center outside of Sacramento possesses, what happened to it? He didn't try to use it and fail in college. He didn't even try to use it. Or was told not to. Or both.
If the UConn Drummond is DeAndre Jordan -- who it should be noted we all wanted last summer before his contract, lest the people throwing that name around as a slur go too far -- the high school Drummond is entirely a different animal. The location of that animal is absolutely critical to his value in this draft. He never showed up at UConn. If he shows up in the pros whoever gets him might have grabbed the best player in the draft. I want to hear form his moouth what happened, and see first hand if that guy is still in there. Noted before Gerald Wallace had a similarly disastrous rookie season in college where he didn't look anything like the player that came before or after. He turned out all right.
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Gary
All-Star
I don't get it.. If we want a big to play some (a little in Duummond's case) defense block a shot here and there and play absolutely no offense why not draft a guy later in the first round? There are players later on in the first round that play much better defense than Drummond, and some people here are eying him as like he's a defensive savior that's going to come in and be a Mutumbo or a Howard... Drummond's MAX is going to be DeAndre Jordan (who I wanted the Kings to bring in), and his minimum is out of the league in a couple years. Mostl likely he will end up somewhere in the middle.
The Kings draft him. He never gets much time off the bench and we trade him away to another team who does not want him after giving him a team option 4th year but then cuts ties after that. He might sign a couple camp contacts here and there but he won't see any meaningful time on a good team.
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That's how I see it going if the Kings take him. The guy sucks and he's nowhere near what people think he is here. JT>>>>Drummond and I don't even want JT starting because he's so inconsistent.
The Kings draft him. He never gets much time off the bench and we trade him away to another team who does not want him after giving him a team option 4th year but then cuts ties after that. He might sign a couple camp contacts here and there but he won't see any meaningful time on a good team.
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That's how I see it going if the Kings take him. The guy sucks and he's nowhere near what people think he is here. JT>>>>Drummond and I don't even want JT starting because he's so inconsistent.
The only real big Drummond faced that looked like potential NBA level defensive starter was Fab Melo on arguably second best (with Melo they could even be placed over Kentucky) team in the country full of athletic players. Drummond showed up for those 3 occasions: turning those 10p+7.6r+2.7bl(28.4mpg) into 14.7p+10.3r(6 offensive rebounds per)+2.7bl.(same 28mpg).
P.S. Interestingly Fab Melo shot 36% from charity stripe his freshman year. This past season? 63.3%!
P.S. Interestingly Fab Melo shot 36% from charity stripe his freshman year. This past season? 63.3%!
As was stated earlier, UCONN does not develop their big men to play in the post on offense. They do specialize in rebounding and shot blocking or at least put a decent effort forward. Look at Okafor, Thabeet, Drummond. The players keep coming into the NBA more raw. Drummond was not that great at UCONN. If you watched UCONN bball as a neutral observer, you would never think Drummond would be going to the NBA since he was so non-existent.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The history is more feeble than that, don't forget Hilton Armstrong and Josh Boone.
Or Travis Knight.
See I have a theory. And it may be entirely wrong, but its one flexible enough to encompass some inexplicables. Theory could be this: UConn is GREAT at developing SGs and SFs. Great at it. One of the best. Ray Allen, Rudy Gay, Rip Hamilton, Caron Butler, Ben Gordon etc. Very few college programs can match that list in the last 20 years. But that's what its system is built around, that's where its recruiting is focused.
Meanwhile, its bigs have usually been afterthoughts. Modestly taletned types brought in to defend the paint as they can. The only one who ever became a significant part of the offense was Okafor. Most of them did not really get better over their years either. here are links to the college careers of each of the NBA bigs of the last 10-12 years out of UConn:
Emeka Okafor:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/emeka-okafor/2001-2002
Hilton Armstrong:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/hilton-armstrong/2005-2006
Josh Boone:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/josh-boone/2005-2006
Jake Voskuhl:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/jake-voskuhl/1999-2000
Hasheem Thabeet:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/hasheem-thabeet/2008-2009
You may note that NONE of them had impressive rookie seasons -- in fact Drummond has better numbers than any. And most barely improved. They were all bad FT shooters. Okafor in fact got worse every year and shot 51% his final season. So question 1) are UConn bigs getting attention/coaching? and 2) to the degree they are, are they basically just told to stay out of the way and occasionally back into the paint while the guards do their thing?
All of which leads me to possible theory: UConn might have been about the last place ready or able to nurture a uniquely talented big man out of high school. They have no history of it. And furthermore, people say Drummond played "in position" in college. What if he didn't? What if he was made into a college center, told to stay out of the way and play with his back to the hoop as a defensive center...when all along what he really si is a mobile faceing PF? Those old vids of him make that suggestion. Him losing 22lbs after the season agians suggests it. What happens to a guy when he is told to just back into the paint and post up and maybe he will get a touch if he is lucky, if in fact his game is to have the ball from the elbow and drive or make a pass with it?
Now my theory does not have to be correct. But what about the list of Okafor, Armstrong, Boone, Voskuhl, Thabeet etc. suggests that Connecticut would ahve any experience with or use for a major frontcourt talent if one happend to come through their system?
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
The history is more feeble than that, don't forget Hilton Armstrong and Josh Boone.
Or Travis Knight.
See I have a theory. And it may be entirely wrong, but its one flexible enough to encompass some inexplicables. Theory could be this: UConn is GREAT at developing SGs and SFs. Great at it. One of the best. Ray Allen, Rudy Gay, Rip Hamilton, Caron Butler, Ben Gordon etc. Very few college programs can match that list in the last 20 years. But that's what its system is built around, that's where its recruiting is focused.
Meanwhile, its bigs have usually been afterthoughts. Modestly taletned types brought in to defend the paint as they can. The only one who ever became a significant part of the offense was Okafor. Most of them did not really get better over their years either. here are links to the college careers of each of the NBA bigs of the last 10-12 years out of UConn:
Emeka Okafor:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/emeka-okafor/2001-2002
Hilton Armstrong:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/hilton-armstrong/2005-2006
Josh Boone:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/josh-boone/2005-2006
Jake Voskuhl:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/jake-voskuhl/1999-2000
Hasheem Thabeet:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/connecticut/hasheem-thabeet/2008-2009
You may note that NONE of them had impressive rookie seasons -- in fact Drummond has better numbers than any. And most barely improved. They were all bad FT shooters. Okafor in fact got worse every year and shot 51% his final season. So question 1) are UConn bigs getting attention/coaching? and 2) to the degree they are, are they basically just told to stay out of the way and occasionally back into the paint while the guards do their thing?
All of which leads me to possible theory: UConn might have been about the last place ready or able to nurture a uniquely talented big man out of high school. They have no history of it. And furthermore, people say Drummond played "in position" in college. What if he didn't? What if he was made into a college center, told to stay out of the way and play with his back to the hoop as a defensive center...when all along what he really si is a mobile facebook PF? Those old vids of him make that suggestion. What happens to a guy when he is told to just back into the paint and post up and maybe he will get a touch if he is lucky, if in fact his game is to have the ball from the elbow and drive or make a pass with it?
Now my theory does not have to be correct. But what about the list of Okafor, Armstrong, Boone, Voskuhl, Thabeet etc. suggests that Connecticut would ahve any experience with or use for a major frontcourt talent if one happend to come through their system?
Actually, I think your spot on. I think UCONN see's all bigs the same way without taking their individual skills into consideration. If you were to watch just about all the bigs you mentioned at UCONN, they were all used in a very similar way. Now its not unusual to take advantage of height, especially if its limited on the team. Thats why Gerald Wallace got stuck playing center. Most coaches try and recruit with the purpose of playing players in their natural position. Calapari has been very sucessful at it at Kentucky. And to be fair, you don't always get every player you recruit.
But UCONN has recruited just fine. So it just has to be a coaching problem. I remember hearing an interview with Drummond where he was asked how he pictured himself as a player. To validate your point, he said he was more comfortable playing away from the basket, and facing the basket. The exact opposite of how he was used. Just because we picture a player a certain way, doesn't mean that player agrees with your picture. Now you can judge that anyway you want. You can say that the coach knows best, and the player should conform. But in the end, if the player would be more successful used otherwise, maybe thats the way you should go.
I don't have that answer. You can't let the inmates run the asylum. On the other hand, you can't put a square peg in a round hole. I'm out of metaphors, so I'll leave it at that.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
I don't think being compared to DeAndre Jordan is necessarily a bad thing. The man is the defensive focal point of his team and manages to cover up for the fact that Blake plays pretty spotty defense.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Others may play better defense than Drummond at this point but they don't have Drummonds physical potenital. Chuck Hayes is theoretically good at defense but being technically sound doesn't always cut it in the NBA, hence Dwight being the one winning the accolades and awards.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Gonna disagree with this statement. Being technically sound is always a good thing. Now granted, if your vertically or athleticly limited, then it might not cut it in the NBA. For example, you could have all the technical skills in the world for the center position, but if your only 6'2", your likely to fail. Thus comparing Chuck Hayes to Dwight Howard makes little or no sense in regards to technical skills. The problem isn't the skills. The problem is about a lack of similar athleticism, and about 5 inches in height.
There has been a lot of very athletic big men that have gone by the wayside simply because they never figured out how to play in the NBA. Some are out of the league in 5 years. Some hang around for a longer time because there's always another GM or coach that thinks he has the magic bullet. There have been more in the last few generations because of the one and done scenario we have. When players had to go to college for 4 years, you had a much better idea of what you were getting. You look for growth, improvement etc. Hard to do that in one year of college.
Strangely enough, now going to college for 4 years is sometimes held against a player. You can say this player has better developed skills and is more productive than another player, and the response you get is, well he should be, he's had 4 years of college. To me its like DUH! Wouldn't you want an attorney who graduates after 4 years over a one year law student. Isn't that the point. Oh well, I digress.
In short, I'm not saying its impossible for Drummond to end up being a good player. I just have very serious doubts about him. And I'm not alone in that area.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
The high school video showed a guy playing away from the basket and having a riot. I would picture him being able to do what Cousins does when Cousins is at the high post. Put the ball on the ground and attack the basket. The HUGE difference between the two is that Cousin's outside game has to be respected. Drummond can't shoot so his defender would lay back and cut off the route to the hoop. NBA players are better than high school players.
KingsCitizen
Starter
The thing that keeps me in the Drummond wagon is the examples of UConn big men that instead of having their games polished with a year in college, appears to lose a step after staying at UConn.
DMC was once a very good high school prospect but lost a few votes during the draft with his head case reputation that was aggravated at during his Kentucky days. DMC's issue was more of aggressive attitude, Drummond's case was the opposite. But IMO, things like these can be corrected if you surround the kid with a good system (i.e. bringing DMC's highschool coach to our bench). But talent and physical gifts of both bigs are only dozen in every decade.
DMC was once a very good high school prospect but lost a few votes during the draft with his head case reputation that was aggravated at during his Kentucky days. DMC's issue was more of aggressive attitude, Drummond's case was the opposite. But IMO, things like these can be corrected if you surround the kid with a good system (i.e. bringing DMC's highschool coach to our bench). But talent and physical gifts of both bigs are only dozen in every decade.
Gary
All-Star
But you don't draft Fab at #5.. Both are project big men brought in for defense and both have no offensive game. What's the difference? IMO I think Fab has Drummond beat on D although I think Drummond because of his size has a higher potential.. Problem is, I don't think he will reach it.
You draft a guy with excellent athletic ability and physical attributes (Melo is nowhere near quick and that might be the problem in the NBA, he's the true Thabeet if somebody overreacts and draft him in the lottery, transitioning from anchoring the zone in college to anchoring NBA defense won't be easy) who can handle and pass the ball and play versatile defense. People throw "scrub offensively who can only block shots" but Drummond comes in and instantly becomes best PnR and generally perimeter defender on the team among bigs. Oh, and he blocks shot much better than anyone on the team as well.
Saying Drummond wouldn't reach his potential is something I don't understand. Why exactly? Care to post a quote that questions his work ethic? Preferably from his coaches or teammates, not some random article with "Some people question his work ethic...".
I didn't see a lot of games of UConn but in the ones I saw he always easily established post position and held it for 2-3 seconds early in games only to be ignored completely by his guards. By halftime his post attempts usually ceased due to their futility. While Davis played with very unselfish bunch of players UConn's one is definitely on the other end of the spectrum. That's why I don't understand all this "avoid contact, lacks physicality" nonsense. Maybe doesn't like to work comes from this as well.
Saying Drummond wouldn't reach his potential is something I don't understand. Why exactly? Care to post a quote that questions his work ethic? Preferably from his coaches or teammates, not some random article with "Some people question his work ethic...".
I didn't see a lot of games of UConn but in the ones I saw he always easily established post position and held it for 2-3 seconds early in games only to be ignored completely by his guards. By halftime his post attempts usually ceased due to their futility. While Davis played with very unselfish bunch of players UConn's one is definitely on the other end of the spectrum. That's why I don't understand all this "avoid contact, lacks physicality" nonsense. Maybe doesn't like to work comes from this as well.
