Draft Lotto Thread (2025 edition)

I'm just curious as to what the other teams that don't win the draft lottery get out of supporting a "rigged" system? If it wasn't on the up and up, and the teams didn't fully believe themselves in the honesty of the drawing system, why would they just sit there on the occasions when the rich get richer or when the lottery odds favor a team unjustifiably? Every team participating has representatives in the room

All of these owners are mega rich and insanely competitive, even if they don't necessarily know how to stay out of the way of their front office. Do you honestly think folks like Vivek and Balmer, etc., are going to willingly participate in a "corrupt" system that isn't honest?

These guys have hundreds of millions or more on the line of their franchises. They aren't going to sit there and let a "rigged" system cheat them out of a top draft pick.

You can argue about the logic behind the current lottery process, or the odds, or whatever, but you aren't going to get these guys to just sit there and get screwed in the lottery. No way.

The Sacramento Kings (players, coaches, staff, owner, fans) get cheated by a rigged system in some small way in nearly every game and we're certainly not alone in that. Everyone is still making money though, so you accept your place in the hierarchy and make the best of it. Each of the U.S. professional sports leagues is a monopoly. If an owner wants a seat at that very exclusive table they have to accept the terms in which that seat is offered to them.
 
I'm just curious as to what the other teams that don't win the draft lottery get out of supporting a "rigged" system? If it wasn't on the up and up, and the teams didn't fully believe themselves in the honesty of the drawing system, why would they just sit there on the occasions when the rich get richer or when the lottery odds favor a team unjustifiably? Every team participating has representatives in the room

All of these owners are mega rich and insanely competitive, even if they don't necessarily know how to stay out of the way of their front office. Do you honestly think folks like Vivek and Balmer, etc., are going to willingly participate in a "corrupt" system that isn't honest?

These guys have hundreds of millions or more on the line of their franchises. They aren't going to sit there and let a "rigged" system cheat them out of a top draft pick.

You can argue about the logic behind the current lottery process, or the odds, or whatever, but you aren't going to get these guys to just sit there and get screwed in the lottery. No way.
Besides the "there are too many people involved to keep leaks about it a secret" (videos, media reps, team reps, etc. plus the E&Y accounting firm who has their own reputation to protect as a compliant, non-biased firm), this is my take on it when I'm asked about conspiracy. There's just no incentive for these owners potentially losing millions in revenue by allowing other teams to get the big name stars. Even if they gave them millions under the table or whatever, it's just silly because a Luka, AD, Lebron etc is franchise altering enough to be worth more than whatever those kickbacks would be.
 
The Sacramento Kings (players, coaches, staff, owner, fans) get cheated by a rigged system in some small way in nearly every game and we're certainly not alone in that. Everyone is still making money though, so you accept your place in the hierarchy and make the best of it. Each of the U.S. professional sports leagues is a monopoly. If an owner wants a seat at that very exclusive table they have to accept the terms in which that seat is offered to them.
Sorry but this is the weakest argument yet (I'm not counting your weird philosophy rant as an argument)
 
Maybe somebody has already mentioned this,

But I love that it's Hrdboiled on the "It's rigged" soapbox. I see their avatar and read the post in a " 1950s gumshoe" voice (in my head)..

I'm on team "It's rigged!" btw

I'm going to take the A Train to City Hall right now and get down to the bottom of this whole scummy sewer of bad money and charlatan charity plates...

Once upon a time the lawyer-suited stiffs on the top floor had conducted their games of chance on the up and up, turning a clean profit and sleeping through the night, but you sell a million shoes and the concept of legality starts to lose its anchorage. They'd eaten their fill but they weren't leaving the table and as a result a whole new class of low-life was circling, nipping at their heels for a share of the leftovers. I could play the honest fool but for this quarry I sensed an appeal to vanity would be more effective so I resolved to remake myself in their image. I wanted the story but if I'm honest, I wouldn't have minded a bite at the steak too.

Sorry but this is the weakest argument yet (I'm not counting your weird philosophy rant as an argument)

As well you shouldn't. Those are either a trivial side-tangent or my small-scale revolt against appeals to popularity as the arbiter of debate.
 
Maybe somebody has already mentioned this,

But I love that it's Hrdboiled on the "It's rigged" soapbox. I see their avatar and read the post in a " 1950s gumshoe" voice (in my head)..

I'm on team "It's rigged!" btw

He’s not locked in here with us.
We’re locked in here with him.
 
I guess my point is that the concept of the known is not fixed, it's always been changing and it will always continue to change. In a broad way, that mutability of knowledge (not truth itself, but the lens through which we access it) is the defining principle of what Science is. You're framing this in a context where you get to define the bounds of what is sane and unsane, which I think is unfair. There is a great deal about the world that I do not understand and will not understand. I think that makes it intellectually honest to reserve a space in my snapshot of 'plausible outcomes' to account for that which is currently unexplainable.

I'm more interested in the philosophical implications (to you as an English professor I would say 'epistemological') than the math but if you can indulge me briefly and start with (for purposes of argument) the assumption that all outcomes obtain -- what does that say about probability? What does it say about individual agency? By no means do I think there's just one answer to these questions -- I'm sure you've got some interesting takes of your own. Earlier you described conspiracy theories as a comforting delusion, part of a long human tradition of creating meaning and purpose out of the ineffable. I think of them in simpler terms. If the entire universe is one big mesh of disparate agents trying to impress their will on their immediate surroundings, than wherever there are concentrations of overlapping intention all pushing/willing/hoping in the same direction we're likely to find movement, however minute, in response to that.

The mutability of knowledge is certainly a defining principle of scientific study, but in the absence of new information, the presently known remains our best understanding of the world and universe in which we live, and therefore it remains the footing from which we must operate. What else is there, until we learn something new? We can reserve intellectual space for that which we deem inexplicable and beyond our current comprehension, but we do ourselves no favors by ignoring the ground beneath our feet. As a species, we craft value systems, social mores, laws, and the like from a shared understanding of what is known. When our understanding of the known shifts, we update those value systems, social mores, laws, etc. in accordance with our refreshed understanding of our world.

I'm attempting to be conscientious about KF.com rules around discussion of current events/politics, so I'll frame an example this way. There's not a lot of sense in granting Flat Earthers a seat at the legislative table simply because they've reserved a considerable amount of their intellectual space for that which they deem inexplicable, in spite of all available evidence to the contrary. That's not a valuable kind of open-mindedness, and it would be deeply unwise to charge such persons with stewardship of the FAA, for instance. Instead, we should charge the administration of such an important agency to persons who recognize and understand the known physical laws that govern our world. After all, Newtonian physics does not meet any kind of reasonable threshold for skepticism in 2025. At least, not until we learn something new.

And more to the point, the NBA draft lottery likewise does not meet any kind of reasonable threshold for skepticism. The stakes aren't as high as airline safety, but they are still quite high for the various stakeholders involved, all of whom have a vested interest in the fair execution of that lottery. After all, if the game was "rigged" in your favor one year, it could be "rigged" against you in every other year. This is why its incredibly challenging to get the wealthy owners of sports franchises to vote for the removal of one of their own; they operate with a shared understanding that safety for one is safety for all, and in the inverse, that what threatens one can threaten all.

So while the NBA may not march every member of every ownership group, every front office staffer, every coach, player, and fan to the stage for the ping pong ball selections, what we know about the draft lottery, its agreed-upon logic, the representatives and stakeholders who witness its administration, and the monumental difficulties that would exist in executing and covering up a lottery grift of the size and scope being suggested here by many, it is folly to craft an argument assuming a "rigged" lottery process that doesn't strain credulity. It doesn't mean you can't craft that argument, of course. Any mind is free to think as it wills. But... what's the point?

I mean, I can argue until I'm blue in the face that I'm being "scammed" about any number of things, like, say, that my morning tea is not authentic and does not, in fact, come from Sri Lanka, despite the claims on its labels and the supply chain data that supports its transit from that part of the world to my kitchen table. But what would be the point of such an argument? Yes, I was not personally privy to the tea leaves that were plucked from a Sri Lankan farm and then shipped overseas, but my existing insight into the tea world and free trade, as well as the strong reputation of Steven Smith Teamaker, suggests that it's fair to say I know from where my tea is being sourced. It would strain credulity to say that I'm being scammed by Smith Teas simply because there may be some plausible outcome I have not yet considered.
 
The Sacramento Kings (players, coaches, staff, owner, fans) get cheated by a rigged system in some small way in nearly every game and we're certainly not alone in that. Everyone is still making money though, so you accept your place in the hierarchy and make the best of it. Each of the U.S. professional sports leagues is a monopoly. If an owner wants a seat at that very exclusive table they have to accept the terms in which that seat is offered to them.

We literally had a championship stolen from us in 2002
 
Then you haven’t been watching Kings basketball games being reffed.
I was talking about the billionaires agreeing to capitulate to other billionaires for "a seat at the table" BS. But since you're throwing that shade, I've watched every single team in the league get screwed by the refs. We're not as special/unique in that regard as this fanbase likes to think on this forum.
 
We literally had a championship stolen from us in 2002

I know Kings fans like to say this because of how much 2002 still stings, and while game 6 in LA was a travesty of awful refereeing, game 7 was in Sacramento. With that sweet, sweet Arco home court advantage. The Lakers went to the free throw line 33 times. The Kings went to the free throw line 30 times. The Lakers shot 82% from the free throw line on the road (27/33... and Shaq hit 11/15!), while the Kings shot... 53% from the free throw line at home (16/30). In a game they lost by 6 points, they absolutely choked from the line. Again and again. And even if they hadn't choked and had managed to win game 7, they still would have had an NBA Finals to play after that. So yes, like all Kings fans, I acknowledge that game 6 was atrociously ref'ed, but I think too many Kings fans have a tendency to overstate what was "stolen" from the team in 2002.
 
Then you haven’t been watching Kings basketball games being reffed.
Although we seem to get screwed on a lot of calls, other teams often claim the same thing. There may be some ref bias (look at the historic FT disparity with the Lakers, for example), but that's a far cry from intentionally rigging the lottery balls somehow to provide a fixed outcome for certain teams and screwing other teams out of franchise-altering talent.

Teams complain about the refs all the time, and the two-minute report, etc., may not eliminate bad calls but helps provide some insight into the bad calls (whether we agree or not).

But no team has ever actually accused the league of "fixing" the lottery (that I know of). And that is a MUCH bigger deal than some bad calls that seem to go your way a few too many times. The bad calls (recently, anyways) can more readily be ascribed to unconscious (at least most of the time) personal leanings of refs during action, the speed of the game, difficulty in calling charges/blocks, etc., and remember that calls do get challenged and overturned all the time. I'm not saying there aren't some refs that are better than others, or that we seem to get the short end of the stick on occasion. But we've also gotten the benefit of some calls. It happens. But "fixing" the lottery is almost certainly only a result of conspiracy theory.
 
We shot 55% from the free throw line in Game 7. A game was stolen from us. Then we choked.


I know Kings fans like to say this because of how much 2002 still stings, and while game 6 in LA was a travesty of awful refereeing, game 7 was in Sacramento. With that sweet, sweet Arco home court advantage. The Lakers went to the free throw line 33 times. The Kings went to the free throw line 30 times. The Lakers shot 82% from the free throw line on the road (27/33... and Shaq hit 11/15!), while the Kings shot... 53% from the free throw line at home (16/30). In a game they lost by 6 points, they absolutely choked from the line. Again and again. And even if they hadn't choked and had managed to win game 7, they still would have had an NBA Finals to play after that. So yes, like all Kings fans, I acknowledge that game 6 was atrociously ref'ed, but I think too many Kings fans have a tendency to overstate what was "stolen" from the team in 2002.

The game was still stolen regardless of the game 7 outcome us losing game 7 shouldn’t lesson the outrage for what was done

They stole a ring from Houston as well in that game 7 debacle vs GSW
 
The game was still stolen regardless of the game 7 outcome us losing game 7 shouldn’t lesson the outrage for what was done

They stole a ring from Houston as well in that game 7 debacle vs GSW

I don't know if you just aren't very precise with your words, but your initial claim was that the Kings "literally had a championship stolen" from them. I have no problem with any Kings fans' outrage over game 6. It was an absolute travesty and a stain on NBA refereeing. But that doesn't change the fact that the Kings' destiny was in their own hands in game 7. They choked. And even if they hadn't, there still would have been an NBA Finals to play. Which brings us to this ring the NBA apparently "stole" from Houston, as well. Are you just of the opinion that the Finals themselves don't even need to be played? 🤨
 
I know Kings fans like to say this because of how much 2002 still stings, and while game 6 in LA was a travesty of awful refereeing, game 7 was in Sacramento. With that sweet, sweet Arco home court advantage. The Lakers went to the free throw line 33 times. The Kings went to the free throw line 30 times. The Lakers shot 82% from the free throw line on the road (27/33... and Shaq hit 11/15!), while the Kings shot... 53% from the free throw line at home (16/30). In a game they lost by 6 points, they absolutely choked from the line. Again and again. And even if they hadn't choked and had managed to win game 7, they still would have had an NBA Finals to play after that. So yes, like all Kings fans, I acknowledge that game 6 was atrociously ref'ed, but I think too many Kings fans have a tendency to overstate what was "stolen" from the team in 2002.
I agree with this thinking to an extent. What was stolen from us was not necessarily a championship, because for all we know, we could've gone on to absolutely lay an egg against the Nets in the finals. What was stolen from us, instead, was the OPPORTUNITY to play for the ultimate prize, a prize which I had, and to this day still have, no doubt in my mind that we would've been able to bring home.
 
I agree with this thinking to an extent. What was stolen from us was not necessarily a championship, because for all we know, we could've gone on to absolutely lay an egg against the Nets in the finals. What was stolen from us, instead, was the OPPORTUNITY to play for the ultimate prize, a prize which I had, and to this day still have, no doubt in my mind that we would've been able to bring home.

Except that it wasn't stolen from them. The refs were absolutely awful in game 6, but that wasn't the end of the series. The Kings had every opportunity to close things out at home in game 7. There was no significant free throw disparity. There was a paucity of egregious calls. The Arco thunder was on their side. When faced with a do-or-die scenario, the simple fact of the matter is that particular Kings team couldn't bring it home.

I'm not as resentful about game 6 as everybody else, egregious though it was. In fact, I remember game 7 much more vividly than game 6, which certainly makes me an outlier amongst Kings fans. What I remember most was the crushing disappointment, not that they lost, but that they just completely folded. Their mental toughness evaporated. They shrank under the brightest lights. Doug Christie, whom so many are thrilled has been named the Kings' permanent head coach, was 2/11 from the field in the biggest game of his life, and shot at least one embarrassing air ball from deep.

And then there was the indignity of effing Shaq, of all people, burying the Kings from the free throw line. A notoriously terrible free throw shooter had the fortitude to hit them when they mattered. The Kings didn't have the same fortitude. Would they have beaten the Nets if they had made it to the Finals? Yeah, probably. We'll never know. But what we do know is that they got exposed as chokers in game 7. Broke my damn heart to see that level of deflation, that they couldn't rise up on their own floor and meet the moment.
 
... I'm not as resentful about game 6 as everybody else, egregious though it was. In fact, I remember game 7 much more vividly than game 6, which certainly makes me an outlier amongst Kings fans. What I remember most was the crushing disappointment, not that they lost, but that they just completely folded. Their mental toughness evaporated. They shrank under the brightest lights. Doug Christie, whom so many are thrilled has been named the Kings' permanent head coach, was 2/11 from the field in the biggest game of his life, and shot at least one embarrassing air ball from deep.
As a rule, I hate this idiom to my core, but that Stojakovic airball that would have given them the lead with 11 seconds left lives rent-free in my brain.
 
Although we seem to get screwed on a lot of calls, other teams often claim the same thing. There may be some ref bias (look at the historic FT disparity with the Lakers, for example), but that's a far cry from intentionally rigging the lottery balls somehow to provide a fixed outcome for certain teams and screwing other teams out of franchise-altering talent.

Teams complain about the refs all the time, and the two-minute report, etc., may not eliminate bad calls but helps provide some insight into the bad calls (whether we agree or not).

But no team has ever actually accused the league of "fixing" the lottery (that I know of). And that is a MUCH bigger deal than some bad calls that seem to go your way a few too many times. The bad calls (recently, anyways) can more readily be ascribed to unconscious (at least most of the time) personal leanings of refs during action, the speed of the game, difficulty in calling charges/blocks, etc., and remember that calls do get challenged and overturned all the time. I'm not saying there aren't some refs that are better than others, or that we seem to get the short end of the stick on occasion. But we've also gotten the benefit of some calls. It happens. But "fixing" the lottery is almost certainly only a result of conspiracy theory.
Can you imagine a franchise/owner coming out and saying that the fix is in in regards to the lottery. I really don’t know the inner workings of the league. I do know that the league is Sports Entertainment and involves a huuuuuuuuge amount of money. Call it conspiracy theory if you want. I don’t buy that there is/was something in place.
 
Except that it wasn't stolen from them. The refs were absolutely awful in game 6, but that wasn't the end of the series. The Kings had every opportunity to close things out at home in game 7. There was no significant free throw disparity. There was a paucity of egregious calls. The Arco thunder was on their side. When faced with a do-or-die scenario, the simple fact of the matter is that particular Kings team couldn't bring it home.

I'm not as resentful about game 6 as everybody else, egregious though it was. In fact, I remember game 7 much more vividly than game 6, which certainly makes me an outlier amongst Kings fans. What I remember most was the crushing disappointment, not that they lost, but that they just completely folded. Their mental toughness evaporated. They shrank under the brightest lights. Doug Christie, whom so many are thrilled has been named the Kings' permanent head coach, was 2/11 from the field in the biggest game of his life, and shot at least one embarrassing air ball from deep.

And then there was the indignity of effing Shaq, of all people, burying the Kings from the free throw line. A notoriously terrible free throw shooter had the fortitude to hit them when they mattered. The Kings didn't have the same fortitude. Would they have beaten the Nets if they had made it to the Finals? Yeah, probably. We'll never know. But what we do know is that they got exposed as chokers in game 7. Broke my damn heart to see that level of deflation, that they couldn't rise up on their own floor and meet the moment.
OK, fair enough...What was stolen from us, instead, was the OPPORTUNITY to play for the ultimate prize by not requiring us to win a game 7 (which I also admit we had no excuse losing) against the Lakers, a prize which I had, and to this day still have, no doubt in my mind that we would've been able to bring home.
 
OK, fair enough...What was stolen from us, instead, was the OPPORTUNITY to play for the ultimate prize by not requiring us to win a game 7 (which I also admit we had no excuse losing) against the Lakers, a prize which I had, and to this day still have, no doubt in my mind that we would've been able to bring home.

I'll concede that it's a reasonable position to claim the Kings shouldn't have needed a game 7 to advance to the NBA Finals. That said, my general view is, "Eh, that's sports." Sometimes referees suck. Sometimes they suck extra hard. If they had sucked extra hard in a win-or-go-home game 7, I would probably feel very differently. But because the Kings absolutely choked away game 7, it tells me that, even though they were a great team, they just didn't have the stuff necessary to win it all.
 
I'll concede that it's a reasonable position to claim the Kings shouldn't have needed a game 7 to advance to the NBA Finals. That said, my general view is, "Eh, that's sports." Sometimes referees suck. Sometimes they suck extra hard. If they had sucked extra hard in a win-or-go-home game 7, I would probably feel very differently. But because the Kings absolutely choked away game 7, it tells me that, even though they were a great team, they just didn't have the stuff necessary to win it all.
Your view totally makes sense.
 
Can you imagine a franchise/owner coming out and saying that the fix is in in regards to the lottery. I really don’t know the inner workings of the league. I do know that the league is Sports Entertainment and involves a huuuuuuuuge amount of money. Call it conspiracy theory if you want. I don’t buy that there is/was something in place.

He's no longer the owner of the Mavericks, and obviously they just won the draft lottery, but I never saw any fear from Mark Cuban when it came to voicing displeasure with the league. If he had thought "the fix was in", it is certainly not hard to imagine that he would have spoken out.
 
I don't know if you just aren't very precise with your words, but your initial claim was that the Kings "literally had a championship stolen" from them. I have no problem with any Kings fans' outrage over game 6. It was an absolute travesty and a stain on NBA refereeing. But that doesn't change the fact that the Kings' destiny was in their own hands in game 7. They choked. And even if they hadn't, there still would have been an NBA Finals to play. Which brings us to this ring the NBA apparently "stole" from Houston, as well. Are you just of the opinion that the Finals themselves don't even need to be played? 🤨

You’re right I’m not being precise with my words we would’ve been a massive favorite over the nets everyone had that WCF as the real finals
 
You’re right I’m not being precise with my words we would’ve been a massive favorite over the nets everyone had that WCF as the real finals
I think Padrino's point was not to argue with you about whether or not we would've been favored against the Nets in the finals. I think his point was to point out that, regardless of what anyone says about game 6 (which he also admits in his post was rigged and ridiculous), we still had an opportunity to win it in game 7, and we ended up shooting ourselves in the foot.

And, to an extent, his other point was to bring to the forefront that, even if we would've made it past the Lakers that year, there's no guarantee that we would've gone on to win the whole thing. Because anything could've happened to prevent us from winning (i.e. a freak injury, not showing up to play, missing key shots, making key mistakes down the stretch). Would our chances of winning have been high? Absolutely, and I'm sure even Padrino would agree to that. But it still wouldn't have guaranteed us a title - we would've had to have gone out there and earned it ourselves.

That was his point.
 
Also of note here...
We went 1-1 against the Nets in 2001-2002, winning at home...by 1 point. And losing on the road...by 34.
So, yeah, if we had been able to oust the Lakers, we most likely would've been favorites to win it all, but I wouldn't necessarily say that we would've been massive favorites.
 
I think Padrino's point was not to argue with you about whether or not we would've been favored against the Nets in the finals. I think his point was to point out that, regardless of what anyone says about game 6 (which he also admits in his post was rigged and ridiculous), we still had an opportunity to win it in game 7, and we ended up shooting ourselves in the foot.

While you've done a good job paraphrasing my larger point, I do want to make clear that nowhere did I claim that game 6 was rigged. Nor do I happen to think that game 6 was rigged. I tend to view game 6 in a manner similar to what @Warhawk has described above. The referees likely were not instructed by the league office to make calls that were expressly favoring the Lakers. But they did likely carry a significant amount of unconscious bias into game 6 that prevented them from seeing the action on the floor in a more impartial light. This is how Mike Bibby's face ends up fouling Kobe Bryant's elbow. But if the game was actually "rigged", it stands to reason that game 7 would have been officiated in the same way, and that the Kings wouldn't have been in a position to choke the game away because the league would have prevented any hope for success.

That said, unconscious bias is a powerful problem in its own right, and it's a very common problem in the NBA, that the referees carry this inherent bias towards the league's biggest stars. They are see up close just how amazing and talented those players are, and that infects their ability to call fouls for and against those stars in a fair manner. It's why the NBA's review center was an excellent addition to the game. Because they're fighting an uphill battle against fan sentiment, I think the refs sometimes get overzealous in their desire to "get it right", and it can take far too long to review a call when a challenge is thrown. But it's largely a very positive attempt at demystifying the way the game is officiated.
 
Not to pour salt in the wound but Samaki Walker's half court shot at the end of the first half of game 4 never should have counted either. I just don't see how the Lakers who played a near perfect second half come back without those 3 points. Series over in 5.

At least the NBA kindly instituted the clock review the following season unlike how they responded to the L2M reports that went against us and decided to just start re-writing rules on the spot.
 
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