Do we start Bagley right away?
- Thread starter Cojc
- Start date
Focusing on the side effect vs. the main reason is not going to help your stance. You never make that decision with the thought that you can get 2nd round picks. You make the decision for the other more important reason I stated and have the secondary reason as icing on the cake. Let's at least be fair when discussing our stances.
This has nothing to do with reports. If they are of the mindset, great! Keep the environment consistent and play who will help the team most. Going away from it could cause this mindset to fade.
I think calling it a psychological game is an unreasonable stance. Telling them that the players who will give us the best chance at winning will get the minutes is not some psychological game. It's as straight forward as you can get.
Interesting. So you do not think any other factors like coach, supporting cast, mentorship, environment, development staff, etc. has anything to do with the player they become? Do we honestly think Leonard would be the player he is today if the Kings drafted him? Maybe, but it's highly questionable.
What would the world be if nobody was ever taught a lesson? What would the world be if there were no consequences for your actions? If a player is doing something that conflicts with what the coach wants him to do, are you going to reward that behavior? I sure wouldn't. Now I'm not saying a good coach is going to just yank a player, not talk to him, and tell him to sit on the bench. A good coach will talk to the player about what they did wrong and what they should do instead. That can be after subbing him. That could be in a timeout. That could be during a free throw. That could be while the PG is walking the ball up the floor. At the end of the day, a coach needs to coach. If a player is not doing what he wants him to do consistently, he shouldn't be rewarded for his "bad habits." He first needs to address it and then give him an opportunity to improve.
This last sentence is highly questionable. Not that either of us could prove each other wrong because each player only has one outcome at the end of the day. For example, was giving McLemore a lot of minutes right out of the gate a mistake? Did giving the keys to Tyreke out of the gate & having him put up empty stats for ROY hurt his overall development? Did it cause him to think he was already good enough? Did it cause him to be entitled? Did it fill his ego that he really did not need to put in all that much work? These are all debatable questions but at least I will acknowledge that we can't use absolutes when it comes to your statement above.
EDIT: And lets not miss the forest for the trees. If Bagley earns his starting spot and shows that he deserves 30 min a night in training camp. Great! He's earned it. I'm not in favor of handing it over to him with no questions asked. Nothing comes easy in the NBA. That should be the mindset we instill in them from day 1.
This has nothing to do with reports. If they are of the mindset, great! Keep the environment consistent and play who will help the team most. Going away from it could cause this mindset to fade.
I think calling it a psychological game is an unreasonable stance. Telling them that the players who will give us the best chance at winning will get the minutes is not some psychological game. It's as straight forward as you can get.
Interesting. So you do not think any other factors like coach, supporting cast, mentorship, environment, development staff, etc. has anything to do with the player they become? Do we honestly think Leonard would be the player he is today if the Kings drafted him? Maybe, but it's highly questionable.
What would the world be if nobody was ever taught a lesson? What would the world be if there were no consequences for your actions? If a player is doing something that conflicts with what the coach wants him to do, are you going to reward that behavior? I sure wouldn't. Now I'm not saying a good coach is going to just yank a player, not talk to him, and tell him to sit on the bench. A good coach will talk to the player about what they did wrong and what they should do instead. That can be after subbing him. That could be in a timeout. That could be during a free throw. That could be while the PG is walking the ball up the floor. At the end of the day, a coach needs to coach. If a player is not doing what he wants him to do consistently, he shouldn't be rewarded for his "bad habits." He first needs to address it and then give him an opportunity to improve.
This last sentence is highly questionable. Not that either of us could prove each other wrong because each player only has one outcome at the end of the day. For example, was giving McLemore a lot of minutes right out of the gate a mistake? Did giving the keys to Tyreke out of the gate & having him put up empty stats for ROY hurt his overall development? Did it cause him to think he was already good enough? Did it cause him to be entitled? Did it fill his ego that he really did not need to put in all that much work? These are all debatable questions but at least I will acknowledge that we can't use absolutes when it comes to your statement above.
EDIT: And lets not miss the forest for the trees. If Bagley earns his starting spot and shows that he deserves 30 min a night in training camp. Great! He's earned it. I'm not in favor of handing it over to him with no questions asked. Nothing comes easy in the NBA. That should be the mindset we instill in them from day 1.
I sure hope not. I want him starting from day 1 and i think he’ll earn it
This is a big year for Coach Joerger. I really pray we don’t see as much experimentation from him in this coming season, in terms of X’s and O’s. He’s been here long enough and the core guys are mostly the same. Figure it out before we begin the season and make adjustments accordingly, but don’t just throw crap at the wall praying something will stick
This is a big year for Coach Joerger. I really pray we don’t see as much experimentation from him in this coming season, in terms of X’s and O’s. He’s been here long enough and the core guys are mostly the same. Figure it out before we begin the season and make adjustments accordingly, but don’t just throw crap at the wall praying something will stick
It's a double edged sword.
1) Could be a McLemore issue, where the player makes mistake after mistake, yet is rewarded tons of minutes with no repurcussions.
2) Could be like Donovan Mitchell, who shot like 30% his first 20 games, found his stroke/confidence and led his team to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
1) Could be a McLemore issue, where the player makes mistake after mistake, yet is rewarded tons of minutes with no repurcussions.
2) Could be like Donovan Mitchell, who shot like 30% his first 20 games, found his stroke/confidence and led his team to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
I just don't see the point of not starting him right away. The sooner he starts playing heavy minutes the sooner he can work his kinks out and see how much effort he really needs to put in to be an effective defender in the NBA. A lot of our future hinges on the player Bagley becomes. We can't play him like Skal, playing 20 minutes one night, 30 another, then not at all, all while pulling him out of the game the first chance he screws up. Bagley, more than probably any other player on our team should get thrown in there right away.
I would start him assuming he earns it in training camp. The vets can teach from the sidelines, there's no experience like playing. He's the number 2 pick and we sucked last year, it doesn't make sense to not give him the spot. I want to see Fox, Bogs, FA, Bagley and WCS opening night with Buddy and Giles first two off the bench. I am hopeful by all star break Giles will be the starter. Z-bo is a relic and it's time to treat him like one.
I don't want to ever see Z-bo getting most of the minutes ever again. Start the young guys and ride the wave. Some good games will be there as well as some awful ones but you teach them and those awful waves will go away. That's how you teach a young team; it's not by having them watch Z-bo try to resurrect ancient history.
I don't want to ever see Z-bo getting most of the minutes ever again. Start the young guys and ride the wave. Some good games will be there as well as some awful ones but you teach them and those awful waves will go away. That's how you teach a young team; it's not by having them watch Z-bo try to resurrect ancient history.
Yes.
If he's not, Joerger and Vlade might as well fire themselves and save us the headache. Those two are on borrowed time now more than anyone; this was the year that Vlade put the onus on himself to show tangible progress.
If Joerger does what he did last year it will mean pointless veterans galore. Watching the Zbo show start us out with a 6-15 record while Fox defers to him and Bagley and who knows else ride the bench isn't progress and unlike last year their clocks are ticking.
Unfortunately I don't believe in Joerger's ability to go away from that. He bent over backwards to accommodate George Hill despite Hill's performance here being a disgrace. You better be damn sure that Zbo and Koufos will be in the rotation if not starting.
If he's not, Joerger and Vlade might as well fire themselves and save us the headache. Those two are on borrowed time now more than anyone; this was the year that Vlade put the onus on himself to show tangible progress.
If Joerger does what he did last year it will mean pointless veterans galore. Watching the Zbo show start us out with a 6-15 record while Fox defers to him and Bagley and who knows else ride the bench isn't progress and unlike last year their clocks are ticking.
Unfortunately I don't believe in Joerger's ability to go away from that. He bent over backwards to accommodate George Hill despite Hill's performance here being a disgrace. You better be damn sure that Zbo and Koufos will be in the rotation if not starting.
I'm just tired of the Kings wasting our time, aren't you? Advocating for the same time wasting we've had for the last few years just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. We can basically tack another year of "waiting" onto this team every time Joerger plays a vet over a young player because the vet is slightly better at that point in time. There have been no accounts of players with bad behavior, needing some sort of discipline to be able to get on to the court. Zero evidence so far. I'm not saying these players don't need lessons or coaching or anything like that. I'm saying they don't need to be held off the court because ZBo can score slightly better or Temple can hit a 3 at a better clip.
Last year alone, here are all the time wasters I can think off the top of my head.
- The entire offensive system. Allowing WCS to run the offense from the high post.
- ZBo setting non screens for Fox every game, forcing him to kick the ball back to ZBo due to zero separation ever being made from a ZBo screen.
- Buddy not getting big minutes until the end of the year.
- Fox not playing in an offense that allows him to use his speed in the half court. That's the entire point of him as a player right now. Wtf Joerger?
- Allowing ZBo to have the highest usage % on the team. His game is the least conducive to helping other players on the court develop.
- Skal's minutes being restricted while almost never putting him back in the game in the 2nd and 4th, despite how well he played.
- Rarely getting Bruno on the court. What did they have to lose at that point in the year? That trade was pointless.
- Waiting until the end of the year to rest the vets. Now the young players minutes aren't as valuable because they're playing half the games against tanking teams playing G League nobodies.
As far as your questions go, I thought we did exactly what was necessary for BMac and Tyreke. BMac just isn't good at playing basketball. Tyreke is fine at basketball and was doing just fine until the Kings started jerking him around and playing him at the SF spot. It's not the Kings fault that it took him 7-8 years to become a good shooter but it's absolutely the Kings fault that they wasted his time by playing him at positions that he didn't have the right skills for. None of our rookies have failed here and then gone on to do big things for other teams.
Last year alone, here are all the time wasters I can think off the top of my head.
- The entire offensive system. Allowing WCS to run the offense from the high post.
- ZBo setting non screens for Fox every game, forcing him to kick the ball back to ZBo due to zero separation ever being made from a ZBo screen.
- Buddy not getting big minutes until the end of the year.
- Fox not playing in an offense that allows him to use his speed in the half court. That's the entire point of him as a player right now. Wtf Joerger?
- Allowing ZBo to have the highest usage % on the team. His game is the least conducive to helping other players on the court develop.
- Skal's minutes being restricted while almost never putting him back in the game in the 2nd and 4th, despite how well he played.
- Rarely getting Bruno on the court. What did they have to lose at that point in the year? That trade was pointless.
- Waiting until the end of the year to rest the vets. Now the young players minutes aren't as valuable because they're playing half the games against tanking teams playing G League nobodies.
As far as your questions go, I thought we did exactly what was necessary for BMac and Tyreke. BMac just isn't good at playing basketball. Tyreke is fine at basketball and was doing just fine until the Kings started jerking him around and playing him at the SF spot. It's not the Kings fault that it took him 7-8 years to become a good shooter but it's absolutely the Kings fault that they wasted his time by playing him at positions that he didn't have the right skills for. None of our rookies have failed here and then gone on to do big things for other teams.
a lot of what Joerger was doing in my estimation was putting the players in different situations to see what abilities they have and to teach them something. for example WCS was tried in the high post to both see what he can play and for WCS to experience it and see what that is like. in fact i think the time spent there is why he improved his passing as the season went along. now we can say this is an antiquated offense etc, but we seem to dissmis the effect this has on the player and their development. it allowed him to have to process the game, look at the movement of the defense/offense and maybe understand and internalize something. you know, wax on wax off.
I know Joeger didn't start Fox right off the bat, but Fox and Bagley play 2 distinctly different positions.
Point Guard is one of the most difficult positions to learn in the NBA. You are basically running the whole team from the Point. Plus Fox was not strong enough to keep up with the other point guards in the league when the season started.
At Poward Forward Bagley just needs to concentrate on his defensive assignments and be able to rebound and score. He needs to learn some offensive sets and how to protect the paint. He has advanced post moves and footwork already and has an NBA body.
I would be really disappointed if Bagley is not starting day 1.
Point Guard is one of the most difficult positions to learn in the NBA. You are basically running the whole team from the Point. Plus Fox was not strong enough to keep up with the other point guards in the league when the season started.
At Poward Forward Bagley just needs to concentrate on his defensive assignments and be able to rebound and score. He needs to learn some offensive sets and how to protect the paint. He has advanced post moves and footwork already and has an NBA body.
I would be really disappointed if Bagley is not starting day 1.
You're correct. That's exactly what happened and in the end, it was a massive waste of time. The players weren't played to their strengths and basically the parts of their games that really needed development didn't end up happening. All that happened was WCS got a little better at passing the ball from the high post which is about as valuable as having Fox set screens or having Koufos hone in an 18ft jump shot.
What would have been valuable would be Fox breaking down defenses in the half court and WCS catching lobs and finishing in the paint. Helping the players get good at what they were drafted for and then adding on to those elite skills should be the order of business but for whatever reason many of these players have put their bread and butter on the back burner to learn different skills. In the end, we don't even know if they're capable of doing what we drafted them for in the first place. I still have no clue if Fox can break down a defense in the half court any better than Collison could and I have no clue if WCS will ever be able to score efficiently because these guys spent an entire season doing other things. All that falls on Joerger. You think Pops would have WCS out on the elbow distributing inefficiently and shooting inefficient elbow jumpers? Heck no. That holds the entire team back from developing.
What would have been valuable would be Fox breaking down defenses in the half court and WCS catching lobs and finishing in the paint. Helping the players get good at what they were drafted for and then adding on to those elite skills should be the order of business but for whatever reason many of these players have put their bread and butter on the back burner to learn different skills. In the end, we don't even know if they're capable of doing what we drafted them for in the first place. I still have no clue if Fox can break down a defense in the half court any better than Collison could and I have no clue if WCS will ever be able to score efficiently because these guys spent an entire season doing other things. All that falls on Joerger. You think Pops would have WCS out on the elbow distributing inefficiently and shooting inefficient elbow jumpers? Heck no. That holds the entire team back from developing.
I still think that learning to pass from, lets say, high post improves your ability to pass in general. The skill/awareness gained there translates to the rest of the player's game. And its not just passing, learning to read the game is an ability that raises one's level of play in general. You cannot just tell Fox go break down defenses. If he does not understand what is happening around him, a team made up of players that does understand the game will shut him down easily. That said, WCS did not only sit in the high post, he was also part of pick and rolls and he was in the low post as well. Same with Fox, he did not just dump the ball to ZBO but was put into many different situations.
I feel that all of these player's games improved as the season went on, and I think the coaching staff has something to do with it. I do understand that many feel that the coaching staff was just holding the players back and that they would have improved faster if they would just let them play "the right way" instead of incompetently/stubbornly trying to 'win now' with an antiquated offense, but I do not think that was what was happening...
I feel that all of these player's games improved as the season went on, and I think the coaching staff has something to do with it. I do understand that many feel that the coaching staff was just holding the players back and that they would have improved faster if they would just let them play "the right way" instead of incompetently/stubbornly trying to 'win now' with an antiquated offense, but I do not think that was what was happening...
Says who? Why this urge to state anyone coming in as a rookie is a "franchise player"? Can't they even get a year under their belt before being slapped with labels they likely won't live up to? There is nobody in this draft I would call a franchise player until we see them get some time in against the big boys.
Yes, I'd be done with Joerger if he is not starting. I don't curse a lot, but who the hell else would we start at PF if not Bagley?? Zach Randolph??? no way. Skal? Bagley is better than Skal is right now. WCS-KK front-court? yeah I'd be on the fire Joerger bandwagon if he opened the season up with that BS.
Why would you not start Bagley right away??? BECAUSE WE TRYING TO WIN? LOL
Why would you not start Bagley right away??? BECAUSE WE TRYING TO WIN? LOL
Well...
At the time of the draft last year, Bagley was a junior in high school. He re-classed late in the summer of 2017 to join Duke a year early. It's true that Bagley would have been old enough to have graduated high school by the draft, but given his late decision I'm not sure it's clear he would/could have reclassed early enough to graduate in June to hit the draft.
At the time of the draft last year, Bagley was a junior in high school. He re-classed late in the summer of 2017 to join Duke a year early. It's true that Bagley would have been old enough to have graduated high school by the draft, but given his late decision I'm not sure it's clear he would/could have reclassed early enough to graduate in June to hit the draft.
The rule is silly and unfounded and it'll be gone soon enough I don't like to even really get into the particulars of this stuff because of this nonsense. If you're good enough to play, you should be able to play, Marvin was good enough to play and he'll tell ya himself... it's not an overestimation of his skills...
Joerger will not start him. It will probably cost Joerger’s job at the end of the season.
He will
Do the same to Giles.
Giles will get garbage minutes before the ASB.
Then,
Maybe Joerger will ramp up his minutes.
Joerger is an idiot. Not a fan of his coaching at all. Runs a slow paced offense on a team of athletic,
Fast players.
He will continue to run a at least 2 vets in the starting lineup. That you can count on. He will never put 5 young players on the floor at the same time.
Randolph, Koufas will still get A lot of minutes.
He will
Do the same to Giles.
Giles will get garbage minutes before the ASB.
Then,
Maybe Joerger will ramp up his minutes.
Joerger is an idiot. Not a fan of his coaching at all. Runs a slow paced offense on a team of athletic,
Fast players.
He will continue to run a at least 2 vets in the starting lineup. That you can count on. He will never put 5 young players on the floor at the same time.
Randolph, Koufas will still get A lot of minutes.
I think the C spot is wide open, but yeah there's absolutely 0 excuse not to let Bagley get 30 MPG right from the jump. I understand bringing PG's along a little more slowly (even though the Hill experiment completly backfired), but that shouldn't apply to the big man spot or Bagley. He's the #2 pick, he's more than ready to contribute from day 1.
Don't really think we'll have to worry about Bagley minutes much though. It's going to be clear he's our best big man and will be difficult to keep him off the floor. Giles is the guy we're much more likely to be frustrated by lack of playing time as I can easily see how Giles comes in off the bench in his 15 minutes and clearly outplays ZBO/WCS/KK/Skal, but remains on the depth chart behind them.
Don't really think we'll have to worry about Bagley minutes much though. It's going to be clear he's our best big man and will be difficult to keep him off the floor. Giles is the guy we're much more likely to be frustrated by lack of playing time as I can easily see how Giles comes in off the bench in his 15 minutes and clearly outplays ZBO/WCS/KK/Skal, but remains on the depth chart behind them.