DMC/Karl compared to Shaq/Phil

[John Galt]

I'm hoping the more learned members will lend insight because I'm a casual fan and may have this all wrong. I'm going by my recollection and nothing more.

Seemed to me that Shaq was known to be quite a beast fairly early in his Lakers career, but it seemed to me that Phil Jackson just constantly rode him and rode him and rode him... harder than I certainly would have dared to (and I wonder if any fans just winced and wished Phil would ease up on the big fella). I just remember Phil saying stuff like "we need more from Shaq" when I was thinking Shaq was putting up great numbers and killing guys.

Is my memory on this just bad - was Shaq very obviously under-performing and Phil just got him up to par? Or did Phil help Shaq go from 'best big man in the NBA' to 'most dominant ever'?

And I'm bringing this up in the context of DMC. Does DMC have yet another level? A level at which people would laugh off comparisons to Unibrow or Aldrich or any of the other outstanding bigs (including that Clipper flopper weenie)... because DMC is so head and shoulders above the rest of the league? Could Karl get DMC to be that guy?

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Just getting some shooters on this team, to take the pressure off DMC (the constant double/triple teams), could propel DMC to being a SUPERSTAR

 

[Iced Espresso]

Ok, I love Cousins, I don't want to put a cap on him yet.

But when you bring up the names like Shaq, or Hakeem, well I'll just say I don't think we are there yet.

When I think of names like Ewing & Alonzo I believe he is all ready better in many ways.

 

[Sac.Kings]

I feel like having a competent team and organization (just competent, not brilliant) would allow DMC to truly make this league his.

 

[SacKings384]

Karl and Phil have monstrously different coaching styles. Karl is a hard-ass push players kind of guy. Phil is more laid back, but has the respect of his players because they see him as knowledgeable. When he gets angry you know to listen. Shaq got along very well with a coach like that (just like he got along with Riley). This is not to say that he didn't garner the respect of his players (see Gary Payton) but he does have a tendency to at times get under their skin. I don't think Shaq was mature enough to handle that. We will see if DMC is.

 

[funkykingston]

Seemed to me that Shaq was known to be quite a beast fairly early in his Lakers career, but it seemed to me that Phil Jackson just constantly rode him and rode him and rode him... harder than I certainly would have dared to (and I wonder if any fans just winced and wished Phil would ease up on the big fella). I just remember Phil saying stuff like "we need more from Shaq" when I was thinking Shaq was putting up great numbers and killing guys.

Is my memory on this just bad - was Shaq very obviously under-performing and Phil just got him up to par? Or did Phil help Shaq go from 'best big man in the NBA' to 'most dominant ever'?

Remember that Shaq actually started with Orlando. And he made the NBA finals where they were dispatched by Olojuwon's Rockets.

Shaq was a dominant force in the NBA from day 1. But yes, Phil Jackson pushed him to another level.

DeMarcus is a very different player (he's just flat out not the athletic marvel/freak that O'Neal was) but he's extremely skilled. But I will be very curious to see what Karl does to elevate his game.

 

[captain bill]

Shaq fell off because of his poor training and conditioning habits, not because of the way he was played. I think Demarcus has better overall habits and training, which makes up for the freakish size and strength advantage that Shaq had. In terms of finesse and skill, I think they're even. What separates them is that Shaq had more raw power down low than Cuz, while Cuz has a better jumper and is more effective from the elbows.

On their best days, Shaq is clearly better, but I think DMC's skillset and work ethic makes him a bit more versatile and will allow him to sustain peak play for more years once the Kings become contenders.

On Karl, I think the biggest benefit to Cuz will be Karl's ability to assemble an effective rotation 8-10 guys deep. He's made his money and name in he NBA using role players effectively, and that is exactly what this team needs right now. Our starting 5 was elite under Malone, but the team wasn't going to get too far because our bench was putrid and couldn't hold a lead. We still need more talent, but we will see an immediate improvement in the bench and rotations, allowing us to win games without expecting Cuz to play 40 minutes per night, and that's huge.

Karl will take this team to the playoffs next year, that's not in doubt (barring major injuries, knock on wood). People have rightly brought up concerns about Karl's ability to go deep in the playoffs, but he's also never had a talent like Boogie before.

Over the next five years, the top teams in the West are going to be GSW and OKC, and Sacramento is going to be right in the mix with LAC, HOU, and PDX. I think this group with Karl at the helm is right there, and we have a good shot to be making deep runs until 2020.

 

[IfAt1st]

As I mentioned before, it is very hard to compare Shaq vs DMC and get any worthwhile results, because of two related factors:

1) Shaq was designated as a favored NBA star immediately. He got so much benefit from the way the rules were enforced (or not enforced) it's not even funny. He wouldn't have half the career he did if the refs actually called offensive charging. He simply bowled through opposing big men and the league let him do it, regardless of the rules.
We all know Demarcus does not get the benefit of rules calls in nearly the same way. If Shaq had to shoot over his opponents, or go around them like Demarcus does, his FG % would have been 20% less. Shaq simply could not shoot farther than 7 feet for 8+ years.

2) The game is called totally different for big men nowadays. They cannot consistently push their man down and overpower them down low, so size is not valued. It is horribly inconsistent, and what is a foul one night isn't a foul the next. At least half the time, when there is contact among big men, they call charging.
Does anyone know if big men are allowed to dribble, bang in to their defender to dislodge them, then go to the basket? Because sometimes it is allowed (especially last half of last season) and most of the time it's called an offensive foul.
The league has gotten terrified of big men clanging into each other, what with the fear of violence and injuries, so they actively stop big men from being dominant down low. With the % of contact plays getting foul calls either way, it makes it so you can't run an offense through a big man who would dislodge a defender to get to the rim. He would generate too many aggregate foul calls. It has required big men to be set up by a penetrator or require him to go around his defender or shoot over him.