DeMarcus defense

[Bricklayer]

Defensive Real Plus Minus, Cousins and the last 6 big men DPOYs
Howard 3.64 DPOY 2008-09, 2009-10, 2010-2011
Cousins 3.63
Noah 3.12 DPOY 2013-14
Chandler 2.67 DPOY 2011-012
Gasol 2.50 DPOY 2012-13


Kings Defensive numbers with Cousins On/Off Court:
105.6 Kings DRTG with Cousins ON
112.3 Kings DRTG with Cousins OFF
-------
-6.7

.513 Kings Defensive eFG% with Cousins ON
.532 Kings Defensive eFG% with Cousins OFF
------
-.019

78.0% Kings Defensive Rebounding% with Cousins ON
73.5% Kings Defensive Rebounding% with Cousins OFF
--------
+4.5%


Compare those numbers to other top defensive centers:
-6.7 / -.019 / +4.5 DeMarcus Cousins
-4.9 / -0.21 / +1.9 Andrew Bogut
-4.5 / -.021 / +4.8 Tim Duncan
---------------
-2.4 / +.005 / -0.6 Andre Drummond
-1.8 / -.010 / +4.9 DeAndre Jordan
-1.7 / +.005 /+0.5 Marc Gasol
-1.6 / -.006 / +0.2 Dwight Howard
-0.2 / -.011 / -3.4 Rudy Gobert
+1.2 / -.005 / -4.2 Hassan Whiteside
+1.4 / +.008 / +1.6 Tyson Chandler

And not a one of those players also carries the enormous offensive load Cousins does at the other end. Many of them barely have to work on offense at all and are pure defensive roleplayers.

Cousins has as big a positive impact on our defense as any center in the NBA has on theirs. And all the blind as a bat types can complain about are the plays when he doesn't stop somebody. Forest for the trees.

I throw the numbers down again and again for the portion of the fanbase that just cannot see through all the agenda ridden B.S. surrounding Cousins and actually cannot see the impact. There's not much I can do for the portion that are just naturally ingrates.

 

[Kingster]

For years now we've seen Cousins getting frustrated one the court, followed by Cousins' quitting on defense in one form or another. It's a tired and tiring theme. If you are one to dismiss it because he does more good than bad on the court, fine. Under this view his no-show episodes on defense are acceptable because his positive impact outweighs the negative. This view seems to look at Cousins in isolation, as if his quitting has no impact on the spirit or collective psychology of the team. (I would daresay that the spirit and collective psychology of the team falls under the term "culture".) However, as the acknowledged "star" of the team, he is hardly isolated. He is the hub and everybody else is the spoke and every player on the team knows it. Is the "star" setting a positive example for the team? Hardly. He's setting a selfish example for the team. He's setting himself up as the prima donna, who deserves to play according to special Cousins' rules, rules that nobody else could possibly play by without being a bench-sitter or traded forthwith. Cousins is turning the axiom, "to whom much is given, much will be required" on it's head. For Cousins, to whom much is given, much more should be given.

 

[sdballer]

If he wants to argue with the officials, I would sit him for a quarter.

I had a coach do this when I was a kid (overall due to my attitude and style of play). When we fell behind and he went to put me back in, he asked if I had learned a lesson. I said I already knew the team couldn't win without me but that I was glad he knew it now too. Needless to say, I sat out the second half too but we lost badly.

Point is, when a team gets killed when it's best player is off the court you need to tread lightly on those kinds of "lessons".

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Let's be fair, though: a lot of people are really up in their feelings about the idea that we should have to "tread lightly" around Cousins. Honestly, I get that.

 

[Bricklayer]

Let's be fair, though: a lot of people are really up in their feelings about the idea that we should have to "tread lightly" around Cousins. Honestly, I get that.

Its called R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

The man pays or bills, puts food on the table, and keeps a roof over our head. When we crap the bed every night, he is the guy who has to keep trying to clean it up. Everytime he sits down to rest we immediately go and break something else he has to clean up.

People like to call Cousins an emotional lesbian and whatnot, but I have serious concerns about a fanbase that collectively acts like a rebellious teenager who doesn't realize everything their dad has given them.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Its called R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

The man pays or bills, puts food on the table, and keeps a roof over our head. When we poopoo the bed every night, he is the guy who has to keep trying to clean it up. Everytime he sits down to rest we immediately go and break something else he has to clean up...

Eh, I feel like it's not super hard to draw a parallel between this statement and the description of an abusive relationship. At any rate, it begs the question, how much **** are you obliged to eat, when it's served up by the guy who "pays the bills"?

 

[Bricklayer]

Eh, I feel like it's not super hard to draw a parallel between this statement and the description of an abusive relationship. At any rate, it begs the question, how much **** are you obliged to eat, when it's served up by the guy who "pays the bills"?

Abusive which way I wonder?

Because what I see are a bunch of angsty "life sux!" teens acting out and consistently lashing out at the one single person in their life who has done anything for them, because that person doesn't have the ability to wave a magic wand and make it all better. They don't lash out at their alcoholic mom, their stoner friends who always mooch off them, their slutty gf who has cheated on them with half the football team. No, its dad's fault I am so miserable! Never mind that he works two jobs just to keep food on the table.

And the kicker is in this world dad doesn't need your crap. In this world dad could leave your dysfunctional family at any time and be welcomed into any well off stable home in the country and live the good life and leave you to go end up living on the street. He's there and trying for his loser kids when he doesn't have to, he hasn't bailed, and the stupid kids are ingrates and will have no idea how lucky they were until they chase him off.

 

[Hoovtrain]

As I have PROVEN, REPEATEDLY, statistically, no it does not.

It only negates 'all the good" so to speak amongst fans who either don't know the game or can't hold their water. Little Johnny the straight A student likes to hop in mud puddles and ran straight up stairs with his shoes on when he got home without wiping his feet. And then you have to sit around and listen to your ridiculous neat freak of a mother in law ***** about how it means he's a bad kid destined for juvenile hall.

You have proven nothing except trotting out your standard meaningless per stats and telling people how little they understand the game because they dare to speak negatively about DMC. Here is the point of contention, since it seems to be lost on you. DMC has a habit of bitching to the refs instead of getting back on defense and the other team in turn scores. That is a fact. So I'm not sure how your per or whatever else disproves this. Again, no one is talking about his overall defensive impact on the game, they are talking about these specific instances that are not even debatable.

 

[gilly420]

This team sucks and so does every single team that Cousins has been a part of for the last six years. Not only does the team not win, but the energy, effort, and team culture is pathetic. It's not all Cousins fault, but he is a big part of that.

 

[dude12]

Defensive Real Plus Minus, Cousins and the last 6 big men DPOYs
Howard 3.64 DPOY 2008-09, 2009-10, 2010-2011
Cousins 3.63
Noah 3.12 DPOY 2013-14
Chandler 2.67 DPOY 2011-012
Gasol 2.50 DPOY 2012-13


Kings Defensive numbers with Cousins On/Off Court:
105.6 Kings DRTG with Cousins ON
112.3 Kings DRTG with Cousins OFF
-------
-6.7

.513 Kings Defensive eFG% with Cousins ON
.532 Kings Defensive eFG% with Cousins OFF
------
-.019

78.0% Kings Defensive Rebounding% with Cousins ON
73.5% Kings Defensive Rebounding% with Cousins OFF
--------
+4.5%


Compare those numbers to other top defensive centers:
-6.7 / -.019 / +4.5 DeMarcus Cousins
-4.9 / -0.21 / +1.9 Andrew Bogut
-4.5 / -.021 / +4.8 Tim Duncan
---------------
-2.4 / +.005 / -0.6 Andre Drummond
-1.8 / -.010 / +4.9 DeAndre Jordan
-1.7 / +.005 /+0.5 Marc Gasol
-1.6 / -.006 / +0.2 Dwight Howard
-0.2 / -.011 / -3.4 Rudy Gobert
+1.2 / -.005 / -4.2 Hassan Whiteside
+1.4 / +.008 / +1.6 Tyson Chandler

And not a one of those players also carries the enormous offensive load Cousins does at the other end. Many of them barely have to work on offense at all and are pure defensive roleplayers.

Cousins has as big a positive impact on our defense as any center in the NBA has on theirs. And all the blind as a bat types can complain about are the plays when he doesn't stop somebody. Forest for the trees.

I throw the numbers down again and again for the portion of the fanbase that just cannot see through all the agenda ridden B.S. surrounding Cousins and actually cannot see the impact. There's not much I can do for the portion that are just naturally ingrates.

Once again Brick, these numbers are on point. Bottom line is for some fans is they want their franchise player to act like Tim Duncan or David Robinson or other player of that ilk. Cousins is who he is and we are freaking lucky to have this guy.....they are hard to watch without him. Maybe the other players should up their game. Maybe the franchise should up their game. Maybe Karl should up his game.

 

[VF21]

But...this thread is about DMC's defense. Whoever made this thread is asking for us to discuss DMC's defense, no? How does everyone getting Fs affect the fact that DMC isn't doing what he's supposed to do?

I can talk bout everyone else's defensive effort in their respective threads if you'd like to start one. But I'm going to be harder on the guy skating by with Bs than the guy working his butt off for Cs. We all suck. Is that what you want to hear? The Kings suck. The defense sucks. Karl might be coaching to get fired and cash his big ol check. But DMC has stated he's the leader. He's the guy. He's the franchise. So lead. Not by results even, but by the process.

No, actually I started the thread to commend DeMarcus for his incredible defense at the end of the game. I should have known it would morph into the usual debate between factions.

 

[VF21]

Refs have said that the big guys are hardest to ref. Shaq's gotten it, Dwights gotten it. DMC is getting it. It's not fair or consistent. I agree with you. But not a lot of the NBA is. Life isn't. He's looking to the refs for fair, when he should be looking to himself. He's got all the talent and power in the NBA to make everyone else cry about it not being fair. But instead of doing something productive with it, he reaches, fouls, and gives up on his teammates.

If I was playing against DMC, I'd probably hack him too. The refs aren't gonna call everything. And it's gonna get under his skin. If I mess with him, he might get his 2 free throws. But he also might whine and cry, allowing my team to go on a 10-0 run while he doesn't feel like running back. Instead, he wants to rumble around and throw up forced layups. Fine by me (this is assuming I'm NBA basketball size, which I'm not).

You're practically asking people to do this to you when it's the only way to stop you and it's such an easy glaring weakness.

At least for me, he's debated because people see what he could be if he would just "disconnect." He shows it for a half. Or a stretch of games. Then a ref misses a call and it's all over. Or he incorrectly perceives a call and decides to quit. Either way, it's frustrating because the only guy stopping DMC is DMC. And he does a good job.

Fair enough.

 

[Bricklayer]

You have proven nothing except trotting out your standard meaningless per stats and telling people how little they understand the game because they dare to speak negatively about DMC. Here is the point of contention, since it seems to be lost on you. DMC has a habit of bitching to the refs instead of getting back on defense and the other team in turn scores. That is a fact. So I'm not sure how your per or whatever else disproves this. Again, no one is talking about his overall defensive impact on the game, they are talking about these specific instances that are not even debatable.

You are right, NONE OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HIS OVERALL DEFENSIVE IMPACT.

There's your problem. Your failing. And its a classic one. Not a complimentary one.

They make up phrases about that sort of attitude, "forest for the trees" etc. I have used the supermodel girlfriend with the crooked teeth example before. Sure you're dating Kate Upton, but all you ever talk about is her crooked incisor.

A rough chart might run:

-- DeMarcus Cousins always sprints back, has GOAT defensive impact, makes Dikembe look like Bargnani defensively
G
A <------------------------------10,000 complaints a day from Kings fans about this gap
P
-- DeMarcus Cousins occasionally argues with refs, still has elite defensive impact as one of the best defensive centers in the game, best defensive big we have ever had
G
A <-------------- Crickets about this gap
P
-- Other highly respected near worshipped defensive centers and their lesser defensive impact


DeMarcus Cousins isn't perfect, But he's 99th percentile all time. But oh aren't we going to ***** about the 1%.

 

[Hoovtrain]

You are right, NONE OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HIS OVERALL DEFENSIVE IMPACT.

There's your problem. Your failing. And its a classic one. Not a complimentary one.

They make up phrases about that sort of attitude, "forest for the trees" etc. I have used the supermodel girlfriend with the crooked teeth example before. Sure you're dating Kate Upton, but all you ever talk about is her crooked incisor.

A rough chart might run:

-- DeMarcus Cousins always sprints back, has GOAT defensive impact, makes Dikembe look like Bargnani defensively
G
A <------------------------------10,000 complaints a day from Kings fans about this gap
P
-- DeMarcus Cousins occasionally argues with refs, still has elite defensive impact as one of the best defensive centers in the game, best defensive big we have ever had
G
A <-------------- Crickets about this gap
P
-- Other highly respected near worshipped defensive centers and their lesser defensive impact


DeMarcus Cousins isn't perfect, But he's 99th percentile all time. But oh aren't we going to ***** about the 1%.

Yes those are the specific instances I was talking about, glad you are finally catching on. your failing seems to be that you live in a world of per 48s and plus/minus and are too biased in your opinions of certain players to acknowledge any sort of shortcomings ....and that there is the Difference between you and I....while we are both DMC fans and want him to be the centerpiece of this team, I can actually acknowledge some of his shortcomings while still praising his extrordinary talent.

 

[The_Jamal]

Defensive Real Plus Minus, Cousins and the last 6 big men DPOYs
Howard 3.64 DPOY 2008-09, 2009-10, 2010-2011
Cousins 3.63
Noah 3.12 DPOY 2013-14
Chandler 2.67 DPOY 2011-012
Gasol 2.50 DPOY 2012-13


Kings Defensive numbers with Cousins On/Off Court:
105.6 Kings DRTG with Cousins ON
112.3 Kings DRTG with Cousins OFF
-------
-6.7

.513 Kings Defensive eFG% with Cousins ON
.532 Kings Defensive eFG% with Cousins OFF
------
-.019

78.0% Kings Defensive Rebounding% with Cousins ON
73.5% Kings Defensive Rebounding% with Cousins OFF
--------
+4.5%


Compare those numbers to other top defensive centers:
-6.7 / -.019 / +4.5 DeMarcus Cousins
-4.9 / -0.21 / +1.9 Andrew Bogut
-4.5 / -.021 / +4.8 Tim Duncan
---------------
-2.4 / +.005 / -0.6 Andre Drummond
-1.8 / -.010 / +4.9 DeAndre Jordan
-1.7 / +.005 /+0.5 Marc Gasol
-1.6 / -.006 / +0.2 Dwight Howard
-0.2 / -.011 / -3.4 Rudy Gobert
+1.2 / -.005 / -4.2 Hassan Whiteside
+1.4 / +.008 / +1.6 Tyson Chandler

And not a one of those players also carries the enormous offensive load Cousins does at the other end. Many of them barely have to work on offense at all and are pure defensive roleplayers.

Cousins has as big a positive impact on our defense as any center in the NBA has on theirs. And all the blind as a bat types can complain about are the plays when he doesn't stop somebody. Forest for the trees.

I throw the numbers down again and again for the portion of the fanbase that just cannot see through all the agenda ridden B.S. surrounding Cousins and actually cannot see the impact. There's not much I can do for the portion that are just naturally ingrates.

While I agree with the stats for sure, you're forgetting that basically all those other centers play on far better defensive teams than ours, so their impact is somewhat lessened than to their actual talent level on the defensive end. I'll take Bogut, Whiteside, Gasol, Duncan, Howard and Gobert any day of the week anchoring my defense over Cuz. Not a slight on him at all, just a matter that his defensive numbers are inflated because he's one of the few competent defensive players we have.

 

[VF21]

Yes those are the specific instances I was talking about, glad you are finally catching on. your failing seems to be that you live in a world of per 48s and plus/minus and are too biased in your opinions of certain players to acknowledge any sort of shortcomings ....and that there is the Difference between you and I....while we are both DMC fans and want him to be the centerpiece of this team, I can actually acknowledge some of his shortcomings while still praising his extrordinary talent.

I think you are arguing a slightly different point that the one Bricklayer originally responded to :

You know if Cuz cut out all the crap I would have zero issue with him never leading a team to 30 wins, there's just to many games where he's on the brink of self destruction. Marc Jackson actually summed it up perfect on the ESPN feed where he said don't talk to the refs your to good a player for that and that being great is a challenge.

It just sucks watching him not run back because it negates all the good he does which there is plenty of.

THIS is the kind of comment I know I find incredibly objectionable.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Abusive which way I wonder?

Because what I see are a bunch of angsty "life sux!" teens acting out and consistently lashing out at the one single person in their life who has done anything for them, because that person doesn't have the ability to wave a magic wand and make it all better. They don't lash out at their alcoholic mom, their stoner friends who always mooch off them, their slutty gf who has cheated on them with half the football team. No, its dad's fault I am so miserable! Never mind that he works two jobs just to keep food on the table.

And the kicker is in this world dad doesn't need your crap. In this world dad could leave your dysfunctional family at any time and be welcomed into any well off stable home in the country and live the good life and leave you to go end up living on the street. He's there and trying for his loser kids when he doesn't have to, he hasn't bailed, and the stupid kids are ingrates and will have no idea how lucky they were until they chase him off.

It's entirely possible that Cousins is the beleaguered, put upon, unappreciated dad, who puts up with a ration of **** at work, in order to put food on the table, and a roof over the head of the ungrateful, petulant teenagers that are Kings Fans. I stipulate that that is a plausible way to interpret the relationship between DeMarcus Cousins and Kings Fans. I don't necessarily accept that that's the way it is, because it seems to me that it is equally plausible that Kings Fans are the battered spouse, and Cousins is the Hollywood leading man, headlining $500M blockbusters, but who also goes home and beats his wife because she put the salad fork on the left again. Because, when everything around Cousins is great, then Cousins is great. But, when everything around Cousins isn't great, it's like being that person who's afraid to say anything that might suddenly trigger your partner, and make him go smooth off on you.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

While I agree with the stats for sure, you're forgetting that basically all those other centers play on far better defensive teams than ours, so their impact is somewhat lessened than to their actual talent level on the defensive end. I'll take Bogut, Whiteside, Gasol, Duncan, Howard and Gobert any day of the week anchoring my defense over Cuz. Not a slight on him at all, just a matter that his defensive numbers are inflated because he's one of the few competent defensive players we have.

Wait, you'd take Whiteside as the anchor of your defense over Cousins? Don't the numbers suggest that the Heat are actually worse defensively when he's on the floor? When I watch Whiteside, he seems like the Rondo of centers, in a lot of ways: he's trying to get the block, and nothing else. Like that one possession that was highlighted in the Warriors/Heat game, when Whiteside blocked Curry, but then the Warriors got the offensive rebound, and then Whiteside stopped playing defense, and Curry ended up hitting a three.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I think you are arguing a slightly different point that the one Bricklayer originally responded to :



THIS is the kind of comment I know I find incredibly objectionable.

Well I do tend to argue a lot, so I get confused lol.
But he seemed to take umbrage with the fact that I dare complain about DMC not getting back on D repeatedly because he's complaining to the refs and all the other good things he does should make us look past this. Sorry, but that's an issue I will never be ok with

 

[Glenn]

Abusive which way I wonder?

Because what I see are a bunch of angsty "life sux!" teens acting out and consistently lashing out at the one single person in their life who has done anything for them, because that person doesn't have the ability to wave a magic wand and make it all better. They don't lash out at their alcoholic mom, their stoner friends who always mooch off them, their slutty gf who has cheated on them with half the football team. No, its dad's fault I am so miserable! Never mind that he works two jobs just to keep food on the table.

And the kicker is in this world dad doesn't need your crap. In this world dad could leave your dysfunctional family at any time and be welcomed into any well off stable home in the country and live the good life and leave you to go end up living on the street. He's there and trying for his loser kids when he doesn't have to, he hasn't bailed, and the stupid kids are ingrates and will have no idea how lucky they were until they chase him off.

Heaven help me if I offer advice but I am sick of these discussions of Boogie. A lot of them have evolved (devolved?) into a proxy battle between bricklayer and others who want to one up him. The battlefield is Boogie. Boogie is the landscape on which a proxy war is being fought.

 

[rhythmless]

You are right, NONE OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HIS OVERALL DEFENSIVE IMPACT.

There's your problem. Your failing. And its a classic one. Not a complimentary one.

They make up phrases about that sort of attitude, "forest for the trees" etc. I have used the supermodel girlfriend with the crooked teeth example before. Sure you're dating Kate Upton, but all you ever talk about is her crooked incisor.

A rough chart might run:

-- DeMarcus Cousins always sprints back, has GOAT defensive impact, makes Dikembe look like Bargnani defensively
G
A <------------------------------10,000 complaints a day from Kings fans about this gap
P
-- DeMarcus Cousins occasionally argues with refs, still has elite defensive impact as one of the best defensive centers in the game, best defensive big we have ever had
G
A <-------------- Crickets about this gap
P
-- Other highly respected near worshipped defensive centers and their lesser defensive impact


DeMarcus Cousins isn't perfect, But he's 99th percentile all time. But oh aren't we going to ***** about the 1%.

It's not a crooked incisor. It's a behavioral issue. It's something wholly within his control. I'm dating Kate Upton and usually it's amazing. But sometimes she just ditches me at dinner. Sometimes she ignores me. She flips out about random things and half the time she's wrong. When I talk to my friends about it, all they can say is Kate Upton, Kate Upton, Kate Upton. They're looking with wide blind eyes like you are. You're blind to the faults. You argue as if they don't exist. As if they do nothing to the team morale. You have no idea what it does for the psych of the team. For someone who tries to sound so smart it's alarming how homerish you are about this. The crap he does hurts the team and it's something that can be fixed. So why not fix it?

 

[VF21]

It's not a crooked incisor. It's a behavioral issue. It's something wholly within his control. I'm dating Kate Upton and usually it's amazing. But sometimes she just ditches me at dinner. Sometimes she ignores me. She flips out about random things and half the time she's wrong. When I talk to my friends about it, all they can say is Kate Upton, Kate Upton, Kate Upton. They're looking with wide blind eyes like you are. You're blind to the faults. You argue as if they don't exist. As if they do nothing to the team morale. You have no idea what it does for the psych of the team. For someone who tries to sound so smart it's alarming how homerish you are about this. The crap he does hurts the team and it's something that can be fixed. So why not fix it?

Ah, I get it. With you, the relationship has to be perfect. Maybe there's a reason she ditches you at dinner and ignores you.

Nobody has said the faults don't exist. What most are trying to point out is that they do not completely negate the fact your girlfriend is still Kate Freaking Upton and maybe you should be trying a little harder to help her fix her faults instead of always harping on them.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Ah, I get it. With you, the relationship has to be perfect. Maybe there's a reason she ditches you at dinner and ignores you.

Nobody has said the faults don't exist. What most are trying to point out is that they do not completely negate the fact your girlfriend is still Kate Freaking Upton and maybe you should be trying a little harder to help her fix her faults instead of always harping on them.

That, then, takes us to the proverbial "Hot/Crazy" matrix. How hot does your supermodel girlfriend have to be, for you to just suck it up for X amount of crazy? And what is the value of X that takes you to your own personal "It ain't worth it" threshold?

The problem, as with many things in Sports Fan Land, is that we're all talking to people, from all over the world, that are not working from the same value of X.

 

[VF21]

That, then, takes us to the proverbial "Hot/Crazy" matrix. How hot does your supermodel girlfriend have to be, for you to just suck it up for X amount of crazy? And what is the value of X that takes you to your own personal "It ain't worth it" threshold?

The problem, as with many things in Sports Fan Land, is that we're all talking to people, from all over the world, that are not working from the same value of X.

Maybe it's not just because she's hot. Maybe it's because she's also a good person and worth the effort.

...But I get your point.

 

[Bricklayer]

while still praising his extrordinary talent.

Once you start doing some of that in any remote balance to his comparatively minor warts, we won't have any problem.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Maybe it's not just because she's hot. Maybe it's because she's also a good person and worth the effort.

I don't disagree... at least, not entirely. But yeah, the question becomes how do we reach a consensus on how much effort is worth it?

 

[VF21]

I don't disagree... at least, not entirely. But yeah, the question becomes how do we reach a consensus on how much effort is worth it?

I don't think we can for the sinple reason we don't have enough experience to draw on. I don't know about anyone else, but I've never been a fan of a team that had a player like DeMarcus Cousins before...and I doubt if I ever will be again.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Once you start doing some of that in any remote balance to his comparatively minor warts, we won't have any problem.

lol is that so? That's rich coming from you. See this is another one of your problems. A person cannot make one negative observation about DMC without captain save a Cuz jumping in and shouting folks down. It's called a constructive debate and acknowledging all sides of things.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

lol is that so? That's rich coming from you. See this is another one of your problems. A person cannot make one negative observation about DMC without captain save a Cuz jumping in and shouting folks down. It's called a constructive debate and acknowledging all sides of things.

Honestly, I don't think that either one of you are any good at that. At least, not when it comes to this topic. It seems to me that both you and @Bricklayer's idea of "constructive debate" when it comes to Cousins is to double down and get louder until you shout the other side into "admitting" they're wrong.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Honestly, I don't think that either one of you are any good at that. At least, not when it comes to this topic. It seems to me that both you and @Bricklayer's idea of "constructive debate" when it comes to Cousins is to double down and get louder until you shout the other side into "admitting" they're wrong.

Lol touché