Defensive Player of the Year - Dwight Howard
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Jerryaki
Starter
how predictable of the league. i like dwigh howard as a player, but simmons rightfully points out that most of his blocks go out of bounds (which gives the opposing team another possession).
my vote goes to lebron; his commitment to defense this season has really helped his team on that end.
my vote goes to lebron; his commitment to defense this season has really helped his team on that end.
I would not have voted for LeBron. While his defense has greatly improved and he's the leader of a team that plays some of the best defense in the league, I don't think he's most deserving. Maybe third place.
I think they got this one right, whether Dwight's blocks go out of bounds or not. He still blocks/alters more shots than anyone else, and doesn't really have any other reasonably good defenders on his team.
I don't know who else got votes, but the only other player that I think should have received consideration would be Dwayne Wade. Considering his size and position, his defensive numbers are spectacular.
I think they got this one right, whether Dwight's blocks go out of bounds or not. He still blocks/alters more shots than anyone else, and doesn't really have any other reasonably good defenders on his team.
I don't know who else got votes, but the only other player that I think should have received consideration would be Dwayne Wade. Considering his size and position, his defensive numbers are spectacular.
kingsnation
All-Star
Lebron didn't deserve this award. D12 did. Led NBA in blocks and rebounds, no brainer. Congrats to Howard, one of my top 10 favorite non-kings in the league.
Jerryaki
Starter
yeah, i guess. DPOY is much more of an individual award than MVP, so i guess howard doesn't get points deducted for his team being average defensively.
if you look at it closely, it basically comes down to his superb block numbers. if you look at defensive rebounds and not total rebounds (which i think should be the case for DPOY arguments), he's not that far ahead of the pack.
If you're taking a possession away from the other team by grabbing an offensive rebound, that helps your team defensively.
Now, you'd never see a quarterback get votes for DPOY because he's money on third down, so I understand your argument. I just wouldn't itemize it that way. Good rebounding teams are generally good defensive teams, and with a dominant rebounder like Howard, your defense benefits tremendously.
Jerryaki
Starter
but he gives them back that possession when he blocks out of bounds.
actually, i only half-agree with that argument. it's almost like saying "making your shots helps your team defensively because it limits the fast break." true, but not really what i think would be classified as defense.
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bigbadred00
Starter
I didn't realize 94.4 ppg was an average team defensively (they are 6th in the league). They also play a pretty high pace (12th) and their team as a whole has the best defensive rating in the league. Cleveland gave up less points but they also play at a much slower pace than the Magic do.
It's not like LBJ isn't the only solid defender on Cleveland (Anderson, Ben, Z are all + defenders. While on Orlando the only guys I would consider solid defenders other than Dwight are role players (Foyle)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2009.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html
It's not like LBJ isn't the only solid defender on Cleveland (Anderson, Ben, Z are all + defenders. While on Orlando the only guys I would consider solid defenders other than Dwight are role players (Foyle)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2009.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html
but he gives them back that possession when he blocks out of bounds.
actually, i only half-agree with that argument. it's almost like saying "making your shots helps your team defensively because it limits the fast break." true, but not really what i think would be classified as defense.
No he doesn't. He just doesn't take away a possession. And I get the argument, and wish he would control the ball more often rather than give the other team the ball out of bounds. But it's still a blocked shot, without which, you're giving up points (considering the fact that the majority of his blocks are from close range). Let's not penalize him for blocking shots.
And my point about grabbing offensive rebounds is not to say that it qualifies a person for DPOY. Just that it helps your team defense. It does.
Howard is 2nd in the league at defensive rebounding. Do you really think Troy Murphy has a case for DPOY because he's a better defensive rebounder?
Sans Howard, they are very mediocre, if that. All the more reason why the league got this right.
bigbadred00
Starter
This was my point. They are very good defensively but he's really the only reason. While LBJ plays with a bunch of other defensive players. If you read further into my last post I thought I mentioned this.
Jerryaki
Starter
maybe not murphy, but if we're just going to go on stats, then camby's not that far off this season: 11.1 rpg (8.5 def, 2.6 off, which is half of howard's offensive boards), 2.1 bpg, slightly lower in steals, but half the turnovers (which does not help your team on defense).
like i said originally, i'd rather go with lebron. best defensive player on one of the league's top defensive teams, while howard is the best defensive player on an average team (which possibly adds to his stats). my point isn't that howard shouldn't get the award, but that it's more of a default. back when ben wallace won with his rebounding and block numbers on a defensively loaded pistons team, now that was earning the award.
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Kings Faithful
Starter
Congrats to Howard, one of my top 3 fav players who isn't on the Kings.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Hedo is still a good defender and his versatility is an improtant factor. Not important like Dwight important. But important.
bigbadred00
Starter
Again I point out why are you calling Orlando an average team or average defensive team. This is almost idiotic. They had the 4th best record in the league and I pointed out they gave up the least amount of points in the league per 100 possessions while playing a faster pace than Cleveland which plays an extremely slow pace (they allowed the 6th least points in the league which is way above average ((15th)). Orlando is the top defensive team if you account for pace. That's why it's impressive and yes Dwight won b/c of the rebounds and blocks, but he was instrumental in Orlando's success on the defensive end. While Cleveland's points allowed went do 5.8 this year, Orlando's went down 4.5 And while you can Orlando is more of an offensive team, as I pointed out their defensive
Jerryaki
Starter
why am i being called almost idiotic here???
was it unclear that i meant that without howard, the magic are an average team (both overall and defensively)?
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bigbadred00
Starter
why am i being called almost idiotic here???
So with him they are elite defensively and pretty solid offensively. While Cavs without LBJ would probally still be elite defensively and horrible offensively? If 1 player makes you an elite defensive player, why wouldn't you give him the award? And you never said without Howard they are average, you kept repeating average defensive team. Howard would make the Kings an above average defensive team if that's possible. LBJ I'm not as sure about. Post defenders are just more important--and why most post players win the award.
I'm sorry, but damn the stats. I've seen Orlando play, and they "elite defensively" is stretch. Really good defensively is more like it.
And the Cavs without LeBron would absolutely NOT be elite defensively. There's really no arguing that.
Whether post defenders are more important or not, there's no hard and fast rule to determine who the best defender in the league is, and either of those guys would dramatically improve their team defensively. I agree with you that Howard's contributions would affect a team more drastically than LeBron's would, but that doesn't automatically make him the DPOY.
Jerryaki
Starter
say what now?
what makes you think that the cavs, without lebron, would be elite defensively???? both squads without their stars would suffer, on both sides. but let's just focus on defense for a second, since the thread is about DPOY.dwight is the defensive anchor of his team, even by your admission. lebron is the same defensive anchor for his team. he inspires his teammates and pushes them to be better at defense, so i felt he should've won it. this is the exact same reasoning that was used last year to select kevin garnett, even though his rebounding and block stats were not that gaudy: defensive heart of a team with the best record in the league. is it that much of a stretch to think that they should've applied the same logic this year???
howard got selected for putting up gaudy stats which is fine; i'm not the one making the selection on the ballots.
bigbadred00
Starter
Here you go guys. Look at the Defensive Rating of the Team. Orlando is the best defensive team in the league when it comes to points per possessions. You watch many games but you can't account for pace which this does which proves Orlando which doesn't look like the best defensive team in the league is in fact the most efficient defensive team in the league they give up 101.9 points per 100 possessions while Cleveland gives up 102.4 (3rd in the league). Yes it doesn't look like Orlando is amazing defensively but the stats say they are.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2009.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2009.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html
bigbadred00
Starter
From the links Dwight Howard DRating (per 100 possession while he's on the court) is 95 and the best in the league this year. LBJ is 99. KG who is 2nd is 97.5 (Dwight actualy is 94.6), 4th is Anderson Varejao (100) and Perkins is 5th 100.2 Cleveland also has the #7th player in Z 100.5
Jerryaki
Starter
ok, i hate to ask you this, but i am completely illiterate when it comes to that site; i've tried navigating through it before. 
who was the top Drated player for the past two years, was it garnett and camby (i think the DPOY two years ago)? i just want to see if the league was consistent in using this as a gauge for DPOY.
who was the top Drated player for the past two years, was it garnett and camby (i think the DPOY two years ago)? i just want to see if the league was consistent in using this as a gauge for DPOY.bigbadred00
Starter
ok, i hate to ask you this, but i am completely illiterate when it comes to that site; i've tried navigating through it before.
2008
1.Kevin Garnett-BOS93.82.Tim Duncan-SAS96.63.Chuck Hayes-HOU96.74.Kendrick Perkins-BOS97.35.James Posey-BOS98.06.Rasheed Wallace-DET98.17.Marcus Camby-DEN98.38.Rajon Rondo-BOS98.49.Dwight Howard-ORL98.810.Yao Ming-HOU99.411.Paul Pierce-BOS99.712.Manu Ginobili-SAS99.913.Antonio McDyess-DET100.514.Luis Scola-HOU101.015.Kurt Thomas-TOT101.916.Shawn Marion-TOT102.217.Jamario Moon-TOR102.418.Josh Smith-ATL102.719.Paul Millsap-UTA102.720.Reggie Evans-PHI102.8
2007
1.Tim Duncan-SAS94.52.Ben Wallace-CHI94.83.Marcus Camby-DEN97.24.Yao Ming-HOU97.75.Manu Ginobili-SAS97.96.Chuck Hayes-HOU98.07.DeSagana Diop-DAL98.08.Anderson Varejao-CLE98.09.Dwight Howard-ORL99.010.Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE99.311.Antonio McDyess-DET99.812.Drew Gooden-CLE99.813.Luol Deng-CHI99.914.Rasheed Wallace-DET100.015.LeBron James-CLE100.316.Shawn Marion-PHO100.417.Tracy McGrady-HOU100.518.Darko Milicic-ORL100.819.Jermaine O'Neal-IND101.120.Kevin Garnett-MIN101.41.Tim Duncan-SAS94.52.Ben Wallace-CHI94.83.Marcus Camby-DEN97.24.Yao Ming-HOU97.75.Manu Ginobili-SAS97.96.Chuck Hayes-HOU98.07.DeSagana Diop-DAL98.08.Anderson Varejao-CLE98.09.Dwight Howard-ORL99.010.Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE99.311.Antonio McDyess-DET99.812.Drew Gooden-CLE99.813.Luol Deng-CHI99.914.Rasheed Wallace-DET100.015.LeBron James-CLE100.316.Shawn Marion-PHO100.417.Tracy McGrady-HOU100.518.Darko Milicic-ORL100.819.Jermaine O'Neal-IND101.120.Kevin Garnett-MIN101.4
I thought Duncan deserves it more than he's gotten it (never). Camby lead the league in blocks and rebounds that year on top of being 3rd in Drat.
Jerryaki
Starter
hmmm. ok, so i haven't looked at what the methodology is for D-rating, but will go ahead and assume that it's a valid measure for this argument.
according to those rankings, dwight howard was at about 9th in 2008 and 2007, and jumped up to 1st in 2009. however, no other magic player was in the top 20 last year, and none in the top 7 this year (i think). looking at the list though, I'd still give it to LeBron and here's why.
in 2007, 4 cavs were in the top 20 (lebron, Z, varejao, and gooden), but in 2008, none of them were (which is actually really sruprising). then in 2009 according to your post, lebron, varejao, and Z are in the top 10, and all have jumped significantly in their rankings. i really do think that that is the direct result of LeBron committing himself to defense this year.
bigbadred00
Starter
All it means is when they are on court how many points per 100 possessions are given up. What this basically says is when Dwight is on court this year, he and his team gave up 94.x points per 100 possessions while the average on his team is 101.9. Which basically tells me the rest of his team is below average defensively and he is bringing up the rest. Do you understand what that is telling you if there are other players in the top 20 that LBJ has other teammates that are defensive first guys including Anderson, who if you've watched games pretty limited offensively. Their team is built defensive first while Orlando is built offensive first yet their team statisically is better than LBJ's team defensively. Why would you award a player who is a great defender on a good defensive rest of team the award over a great defender on an average or below average defensive rest of the team when in fact that great defender (Howard) statistically has made the Magic into statistically one of the better defensive teams. It's almost illogical to do it the other way.
Do you really feel that b/c LBJ ramped up his D, magically Anderson etc. ramped up their D as well? That's lol hilarious. Anderson has been good for the last couple years defensively. Ben Wallace is also very good defensively and while Z isn't amazing defensively he's atleast been above average for years. His career DRAt it 102, and was 99 in 2007, and even 97 in 1997. This year isn't even his best year. I'm not going to discredit LBJ when it comes to the MVP b/c he is--and Dwight is still very limited offensively, but LBJ doesn't deserve the DPOY this year.
Who on the Magic other than HOward would you consider defensive first? Courtney Lee? Nelson, Alston, Turgoglu, Rashard. The only other guys I would consider defensive first are Gortat, Peitrus and Battie who all get limited minutes. The rest of their starting lineup who Dwight plays the most minutes with is offensive first.
Jerry I'm pretty sure you are grasping for straws for some reason. I think LBJ is great--but it's due to his greatness, he is also better offensively than Dwight will ever be.
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